Brits don't dope?

[gillan1969]

Re:

You are wrong, gillan1969. Both are clear examples where people did not read critically and propagated incorrect information. That is the common bond.

one has far greater implications than the other and so any intelligent reader would exercise more time critically analyzing one over t'other. No?

 

[djpbaltimore]

The implications are different. It was much worse IMO to pass along bad info about someone in the public being 'hired' when no money changed hands than what an anonymous parent did to discover an athlete's stash of drugs. But, both examples are worth critiquing for the reasons that I already stated.

 

[Cake]

Re:

I've always wondered just how much doping goes on at amateur level, particularly when the last winner did close to 8w/kg for 4:25 in the National Hill Climb. Not saying he dopes or anything but Hill Climbing at least seems to have got a lot more popular in the last few years and I wouldn't be surprised to learn i'd raced against dopers.

When I worked in the tech industry, one of my colleagues was an amateur cyclist. This was 10 years back, and I was rather naive about PEDs back then. So, when he mentioned he knew of amateur cyclists using EPO I was gobsmacked. One of the users was in his late 40s / early 50s! Later I read about blood doping & you realise that, with old age narrowing the arteries (even fit people), that is an insanely dangerous thing to do. Yet some are prepared to risk it for glory (there certainly isn't money in the frame at the level this guy was racing at). Hearing that story opened my eyes to the pervasiveness of doping in even amateur sport

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I read some of the comments on the time trial forum. Some are of the 'we don't want to talk about it here' kind. Talk bout heads in the sand!

It was painful.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

some gentleman does mention a bag in the comments here:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/junior-time-trial-champion-gabriel-evans-admits-epo-use-203450

The comment:

I suspect he had an inkling hence finding it in his bag (if the reporting is factually correct) and therefore how widespread is the problem with youngsters

Having read the reporting you will have recalled there was no mention of a bag at which point surely your BS filter kicked in and you dismissed the comment?

Fair points, I think it is necessary for people to be challenged when they do not read things critically and pass on information that is not factually correct. Then it becomes like a game of telephone (aka Chinese whispers). A similar thing happened when a CN article was read incorrectly, leading to claims that Dr. Swart was hired by Michelle Cound to conduct testing. FWIW, I have been on the other end of your critiques. It makes us all more accountable for our comments.

viewtopic.php?p=1843551#p1843551

not really the same unless you think someone has skin in the game if a 'bag' is involved...otherwise... kind of irrelevant no?

bag/fridge/pocket/under pillow....that's the real story

Exactly. One person is just having a go, the other is trying to accuse people of breaking the rules.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

some gentleman does mention a bag in the comments here:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/junior-time-trial-champion-gabriel-evans-admits-epo-use-203450

The comment:

I suspect he had an inkling hence finding it in his bag (if the reporting is factually correct) and therefore how widespread is the problem with youngsters

Having read the reporting you will have recalled there was no mention of a bag at which point surely your BS filter kicked in and you dismissed the comment?

Fair points, I think it is necessary for people to be challenged when they do not read things critically and pass on information that is not factually correct. Then it becomes like a game of telephone (aka Chinese whispers). A similar thing happened when a CN article was read incorrectly, leading to claims that Dr. Swart was hired by Michelle Cound to conduct testing. FWIW, I have been on the other end of your critiques. It makes us all more accountable for our comments.

viewtopic.php?p=1843551#p1843551

not really the same unless you think someone has skin in the game if a 'bag' is involved...otherwise... kind of irrelevant no?

bag/fridge/pocket/under pillow....that's the real story

Exactly. One person is just having a go, the other is trying to accuse people of breaking the rules.

well, in the critics defense... i think there was more than one on this particular concern, but there have been quite a few negative replies to my posts on other threads too concerning my "facts", and being able to support them. So it is a train of 'concern', a theme there who wish to criticise some of my posts. I will endeavour to do better and have my crucial elements spot on, to sate those with the concern.

but for me, or my posts, it was not merely this thread. In my defense, I had somehow thought I had 'read' a bag, but I struggle to see how this occurred, tho I have not delved completely into my browser history. But I think I added one and one and my memory told me I had three and it was a 'bag'. evidently, it was not three, it was not a bag. or a 'bag', with the inverted commas.

also, I never meant musette 'bag', or the USPS type goodie bag musette. I meant, a luggage bag on the way to the training camp in France on the continent.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Feck I wasn't expecting this much meta I don't mind wild speculation as it is part of the appeal of the site. I should have provided a link else why should my wild speculation be any different to blackcat's?

Blackcat my comment was unnecessarily snappy. Sorry.

If you want to wade through 17,000 pages of angst and hand-wringing there is a fair bit of information on the ttforum, but the gist of it is this lad's statement doesn't stack up.

Interesting things:
1. lots of Brits (I am a Brit) starting to realise 'Brits dont dope' narrative is BS.
2. Cultural normalisation of doping in cycling has got to the point where cat 1 amateurs think they only get spanked cos the other dude doped, when it fact it could be cos your aerodynamics need work, or your power meter needs calibrating, or one of many other reasons.

and the normalisation extends to other sports too.

i dare say it was not just coe and other runners, it was steve redgrave too. Like Martin Vinnicombe said about two decades after he was busted, if u are in the kitchen, gotta get cookin.

Vinnicombe, like Redgrave, was coming up against GDR and USSR riders. I think the record of GDR in rowing regattas at olympics, was like Armstrong in July, they just dominated everyone. So Redgrave would have matched them, I dont think this is such a far-flung wild speculation.

everyone dopes now at this level. It is a red-queen effect. An arms race. But if you look at the variables and socio-political milieu of Olympic and professional sport, it was only ever gonna be thus. speak to julian savulescu, he will put it far more eloquently than I can. #appealtoauthority

on Brits Dont Dope Narrative, dont worry, in Australia, we still have these deepseated Australians dont dope narrative.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

The implications are different. It was much worse IMO to pass along bad info about someone in the public being 'hired' when no money changed hands than what an anonymous parent did to discover an athlete's stash of drugs. But, both examples are worth critiquing for the reasons that I already stated.

fair enough.

the devil's advocate is the receiver, in this case, lets make the receiver this amorphous Clinic TWELVE (Tarantino hello?)

so the receiver The Clinic TWELEVE, has had much propaganda heaped upon her amorphous body of dozen.

so the receive has the propaganda. Now, the receive seeks to parse the propaganda. And this forum has many sockpuppets***, and if JV was on here, it stands to reason that LiveStrong interns in Austin, and mebbe Brailsford had Murdocytes (my take on acolytes) here attempting to sway opinion. Well, if the Brailsford acolytes/murdochyets/bots bothered to check my posts, I started off a support and defense of Froome from (starting) when he was at Barloworld when everyone was so suspicious at that breakthru Vuelta2011.

The peloton never told the truth about doping, and the defenses when they have one non-negative are risible. The Floyd defense was risible with Arnie Baker over on DailyPeloton which went into full force immediately after the positive was confirmed.

There are a few on this forum, who have known others over numerous fora. BianchiGirl, RaceRadio, HelmutRoole, MrsJohnMurphy. We often had different handles across these different fora, but we would remember the other person's handle.

We have seen the BS been heaped on the receiver. This is The normalisation. If there sport deals in BS messaging and BS communicating and BursonMarsteller BS, the we attempt to make sense of the BS.

If you allowed Armstrong to wield it over everyone with the extraordinary allegations require extraordinary proof aphorism... coulda been Carl Sagan... then we would never have a sufficient proof that satisfied the dilettantes in his fanbase and the RupertMurdochMedia, RMM. Armstrong could easily maitain his sleuthy logistics of deliveries by motoman, keep his blood and hormone levels beneath the positive test level, and smear Betsy Andreu in the media, because he has the voice, the media, the soapbox, the public strategies PR firm, and she has none of that just her home in the MidWest.

so that is the devil's advocate why posters seek to find a closer truth than the BS we are given. And my first post, the OP, made a defense, quite a comprehensive support of F-Dawg (eh Cound, you reading this?) and even doing the thread on Froome, ofcourse I knew he doped, ofcourse I knew Corti and Robertson ran dirty Barloworld teams, and also the feeder team of John Robertson Konica Minolta

 

[Cloxxki]

Andrew Young (GBR) took bronze in the Toblach Cross-Country Ski Freestyle sprint today.
Cleanest sport of them all, beating all the clean dominant Norwegians. He won his heats with ease, but has less recovery coming out of the 2nd of the semi finals.
A local guy won in front of an American named Hamilton.

 

[Lyon]

Andrew Young (GBR) took bronze in the Toblach Cross-Country Ski Freestyle sprint today.
Cleanest sport of them all, beating all the clean dominant Norwegians. He won his heats with ease, but has less recovery coming out of the 2nd of the semi finals.
A local guy won in front of an American named Hamilton.

He has obviously been poisoned by the evil Norwegians.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Feck I wasn't expecting this much meta I don't mind wild speculation as it is part of the appeal of the site. I should have provided a link else why should my wild speculation be any different to blackcat's?

Blackcat my comment was unnecessarily snappy. Sorry.

how many thousands of posts have I contributed to this forum, sometimes going AWOL for months/years... but, my point is, most of the posts offer insight and can be triangulated and fact checked with google. And I did think I had built up enough credibility with my bona fides, and offering some esoteric information that no one else can access. Most on this forum actually have some similar "mail" (inside information/backchannel sources)... and do provide a valuable insight. 131313/RaceRadio/HelmutRoole I always took extra notice when I saw their handles in a thread. I did not provide that quite unique level of insight, but I did offer some slither.

I think I know how the problem occurs, I attempt satire in 90% of posts, and am only serious on 10& other occasion, and some take offence to me taking a position making fun of one team. But I have mentioned p'raps a dozen caveats on this. So I am not anti-British.

I apppreciate that I cannot expect posters to read thru 5 thousand of my posts to just give me a wide berth on a few single posts. So in this respect, it is my naivety and ignorance about the realist pov. I treat my posts as a 5000post stream of consciousness and not the "single discreet post" that it is more appropriate.

If you want to wade through 17,000 pages of angst and hand-wringing there is a fair bit of information on the ttforum, but the gist of it is this lad's statement doesn't stack up.

so basically, we are the same poster, in the parallel world? (said in good humour/jest)

Interesting things:
1. lots of Brits (I am a Brit) starting to realise 'Brits dont dope' narrative is BS.
2. Cultural normalisation of doping in cycling has got to the point where cat 1 amateurs think they only get spanked cos the other dude doped, when it fact it could be cos your aerodynamics need work, or your power meter needs calibrating, or one of many other reasons.

actually, I know think this is the second time I replied to this post, was the first para edited/added. It matters nought either way. I just dont think it is a good habit (for me) to double reply.

 

[BullsFan22]

Andrew Young (GBR) took bronze in the Toblach Cross-Country Ski Freestyle sprint today.
Cleanest sport of them all, beating all the clean dominant Norwegians. He won his heats with ease, but has less recovery coming out of the 2nd of the semi finals.
A local guy won in front of an American named Hamilton.

I am not gonna go in detail, as I've already posted in "doping in xc skiing," but the conditions and the course, and the technique played into Hamilton's and Young's strengths. Plus both have very efficient techniques and their skis were pretty good.

 

[blackcat]

I have been thinking, the OP title needs to be edited mods.
I think Mrs John Murphy would approve of my idea.

the title is

Brits don't dope?
1 ... 116117118Attachment(s) by Mrs John Murphy

I think it would read better with a tad of ambiguity, a question still implicit, but no question mark.

I advise the edit to go like this sans the question mark

Brits don't dope
1 ... 116117118Attachment(s) by Mrs John Murphy

 

[thehog]

Despite the British Sports Adminstrators leading the charge in corruption, thank-God the athletes are clean...

 

[fmk_RoI]

Prof David Cowan, director of the London 2012 anti-doping science centre, gets gong for services to anti-doping science

 

[blackcat]

Re:

The BBC Radio 4 did a little section earlier on today about asking people what the British did really very, very well. What were we supreme at. . They did advise that when asking the public the two most popular answers were the NHS and the BBC. They also asked a number of famous people for their thoughts to make contributions to the program.

We just have to send an official invite for this guy to join the clinic - I am sure he he could find much material to inspire his plays.

Alan Bennett stated that he was going to narrow it down to one thing that the English did very, very, well, we were really superb at it.

That thing the English were superb at - hypocrisy - we could do it without worrying or troubling ourselves.

Well done Alan !

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Re: Re:

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

Aw, look, we all have our spastics. It's just that few countries are thick enough to elect them PM:

Love Australians on ethics - while they supply much of the fuel to fry the planet.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

Aw, look, we all have our spastics. It's just that few countries are thick enough to elect them PM:

Love Australians on ethics - while they supply much of the fuel to fry the planet.

my aunt taught him law at university, she said he was an arrogant muppet (my word) even then

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

The BBC Radio 4 did a little section earlier on today about asking people what the British did really very, very well. What were we supreme at. . They did advise that when asking the public the two most popular answers were the NHS and the BBC. They also asked a number of famous people for their thoughts to make contributions to the program.

We just have to send an official invite for this guy to join the clinic - I am sure he he could find much material to inspire his plays.

Alan Bennett stated that he was going to narrow it down to one thing that the English did very, very, well, we were really superb at it.

That thing the English were superb at - hypocrisy - we could do it without worrying or troubling ourselves.

Well done Alan !

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

You really haven't a clue about this place at all have you

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

Aw, look, we all have our spastics. It's just that few countries are thick enough to elect them PM:

Love Australians on ethics - while they supply much of the fuel to fry the planet.

David Cameron anyone? Glass houses, stones etc.

BTW, I sure as hell didn't vote for his backwards, bigoted, anti intellectual fear mongers. Of all the Australians that I've seen here, only ACF94 would've voted for him

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

Aw, look, we all have our spastics. It's just that few countries are thick enough to elect them PM:

Love Australians on ethics - while they supply much of the fuel to fry the planet.

David Cameron anyone? Glass houses, stones etc.

BTW, I sure as hell didn't vote for his backwards, bigoted, anti intellectual fear mongers. Of all the Australians that I've seen here, only ACF94 would've voted for him

I don't think that many really wanted to vote for Abbott, I think most voted against the Labor Party and that's how he got elected.
Anyway i'm wandering off topic

 

[Swifty's Cakes]

Re: Re:

The BBC Radio 4 did a little section earlier on today about asking people what the British did really very, very well. What were we supreme at. . They did advise that when asking the public the two most popular answers were the NHS and the BBC. They also asked a number of famous people for their thoughts to make contributions to the program.

We just have to send an official invite for this guy to join the clinic - I am sure he he could find much material to inspire his plays.

Alan Bennett stated that he was going to narrow it down to one thing that the English did very, very, well, we were really superb at it.

That thing the English were superb at - hypocrisy - we could do it without worrying or troubling ourselves.

Well done Alan !

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

a point of order, Gourdonstoun and half of Chariots of Fire are Scottish.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

[]

I could offer about 7 things...

oxbridge, muscular christianity, boatraces, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, public school dorm hijinks wildean doth not dare speak its name, redgrave, rowing, plus hypocrisy

*deleted by mod*

Its a Mrs John Murphy or Brodeal OP, it is not meant to be serious...

sir, please get a grip

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

a point of order order

Guido Fawkes #FTW http://order-order.com/

 

[The Carrot]

'Supercharge ParalympicsGB'

A poor choice of words perhaps?

http://www.skysports.com/more-sports/olympics/news/14935/10121352/supercharge-paralympicsgb-launched-to-raise-funds-for-rio