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the premise that taking PEDs make you of poor character is___F A L S E.
What makes you of poor character, is if you did not go to Gordonstoun, Harrow, Dragon, Westminster, Eten, Rugby and Charterhouse.
then you are of poor stock and character. Is___T R U E #eugenics #breeding #aristocracy
or Eton
What makes you of poor character, is if you did not go to Gordonstoun, Harrow, Dragon, Westminster, Eten, Rugby and Charterhouse.
then you are of poor stock and character. Is___T R U E #eugenics #breeding #aristocracy
or Eton
Re: Re:
Well there is doubt, otherwise there would be evidence all over the place but all there is, is conspiracy theory opinions
Benotti69 said:
Well there is doubt, otherwise there would be evidence all over the place but all there is, is conspiracy theory opinions
Re: Re:
If Armstrong is nice to Floyd, if Nowitski or Novitski never did the Fed investigation, if Birotte never gets the brief, if Tygart never opens the investigation...
all these things are plausible, the stars ALIGNED against Lance. He was pretty unlucky.
If Lance is not exposed, the Empire crew behind Froome and Wiggins and Gordonstoun and MUscular Christianity have a USPS type hubris.
At the moment, empire crew merely flirts with Yankee hubris.
gazr99 said:
If Armstrong is nice to Floyd, if Nowitski or Novitski never did the Fed investigation, if Birotte never gets the brief, if Tygart never opens the investigation...
all these things are plausible, the stars ALIGNED against Lance. He was pretty unlucky.
If Lance is not exposed, the Empire crew behind Froome and Wiggins and Gordonstoun and MUscular Christianity have a USPS type hubris.
At the moment, empire crew merely flirts with Yankee hubris.
Re: Re:
But there is evidence all over the place. Hell Walsh used the same evidence about Sky it to write books about Armstrong.
TeamSky is currently the goose laying golden eggs in the sport. No one wants to kill it when it is hard to find sponsors. Instead of improving the sport and attracting sponsors to a clean well run sport, they'd rather feed the goose and feather their own nests.
gazr99 said:
But there is evidence all over the place. Hell Walsh used the same evidence about Sky it to write books about Armstrong.
TeamSky is currently the goose laying golden eggs in the sport. No one wants to kill it when it is hard to find sponsors. Instead of improving the sport and attracting sponsors to a clean well run sport, they'd rather feed the goose and feather their own nests.
There is evidence all over the place. That's why the overwhelming majority of cycling fans (80% in countries like Denmark) are convinced Froome is doping and why people like *** Pound and Ashenden are saying the sport is as bad as ever.
If people want to post factual untruths like - there is no evidence, well, all's the best to them
If people want to post factual untruths like - there is no evidence, well, all's the best to them
Re: Re:
But there is evidence all over the place. Hell Walsh used the same evidence about Sky it to write books about Armstrong.
TeamSky is currently the goose laying golden eggs in the sport. No one wants to kill it when it is hard to find sponsors. Instead of improving the sport and attracting sponsors to a clean well run sport, they'd rather feed the goose and feather their own nests.[/quote]
Show us this hard evidence that Wiggins took PED's then
Benotti69 said:
But there is evidence all over the place. Hell Walsh used the same evidence about Sky it to write books about Armstrong.
TeamSky is currently the goose laying golden eggs in the sport. No one wants to kill it when it is hard to find sponsors. Instead of improving the sport and attracting sponsors to a clean well run sport, they'd rather feed the goose and feather their own nests.[/quote]
Show us this hard evidence that Wiggins took PED's then
The Hitch said:
There is evidence where? Amazing how the evidence thread is like a ghost town and is rarely updated considering all of this evidence that is out there
I think it's more a question of there being a smoking gun, and a body, but nobody has found the bullets yet.
Of course they are employing drugs. Why wouldn't they? Their livelihood depends on it, and as Blackcat demonstrated the odds of it all going horribly wrong are small. Armstrong was only outed because he and Bruyneel made a decision to not employ Landis. They would never have imagined that Landis would turn on them.
Of course they are employing drugs. Why wouldn't they? Their livelihood depends on it, and as Blackcat demonstrated the odds of it all going horribly wrong are small. Armstrong was only outed because he and Bruyneel made a decision to not employ Landis. They would never have imagined that Landis would turn on them.
Re: Re:
I dont think it is that easy to drop 10% of your bodyweight, when you are a lean professional cyclist to begin with, you aint exactly Maggy Bagstedt or Dario Pieri or John Degenkolb or Jan Ullrich. You are not fatter than a pro rata Merckx Armstrong Lemond or Hinault. They all carried fit and lean muscle to go along with their lungs.
remember when the 5'9" Kennaugh lost 10lbs from a March World Track Champs to the start of the Tour, then Brailsford said this was just caloric deficit. Which was the #bovinescatology propaganda answer.
you need to use the pharmacy ^see: my reckoning above
then you need to work on diet, or the rectal tube infusion...
it takes alot of discipline. significant discipline.
It helps to come from a northern hemisphere state. even more if it aint across the Atlantic. Most cyclists have a commitment and discipline to the arduousness of the sport. but if you take them out of their culture, into a different language, outside their friends and family, well, the Brits dont have ALOT of these hurdles Kiwis, Canucks, Aussies and Yanks have to navigate. They are closer to home, in Europe even Brexit,
The second tier GC riders will be queuing up for the next leadership in the TdF.
Kennaugh, G, Adam and Simon Yates will see the financial heft Brailsford wields, Gerry for all his generosity, can't go overs, or pay 5million GBP for a Tour de France winner. Brailsford can do a knockout offer for the twins.
And Brailsford will be playing his card in politics101, motivate froome with internal competition, and indications they will seek to contract the twins.
and as an Aussie nationalist, I hope the twins stay with Jayco Gerry, because they know the Australians run a clean team
#Poe's_law
BYOP88 said:
I dont think it is that easy to drop 10% of your bodyweight, when you are a lean professional cyclist to begin with, you aint exactly Maggy Bagstedt or Dario Pieri or John Degenkolb or Jan Ullrich. You are not fatter than a pro rata Merckx Armstrong Lemond or Hinault. They all carried fit and lean muscle to go along with their lungs.
remember when the 5'9" Kennaugh lost 10lbs from a March World Track Champs to the start of the Tour, then Brailsford said this was just caloric deficit. Which was the #bovinescatology propaganda answer.
you need to use the pharmacy ^see: my reckoning above
then you need to work on diet, or the rectal tube infusion...
it takes alot of discipline. significant discipline.
It helps to come from a northern hemisphere state. even more if it aint across the Atlantic. Most cyclists have a commitment and discipline to the arduousness of the sport. but if you take them out of their culture, into a different language, outside their friends and family, well, the Brits dont have ALOT of these hurdles Kiwis, Canucks, Aussies and Yanks have to navigate. They are closer to home, in Europe even Brexit,
The second tier GC riders will be queuing up for the next leadership in the TdF.
Kennaugh, G, Adam and Simon Yates will see the financial heft Brailsford wields, Gerry for all his generosity, can't go overs, or pay 5million GBP for a Tour de France winner. Brailsford can do a knockout offer for the twins.
And Brailsford will be playing his card in politics101, motivate froome with internal competition, and indications they will seek to contract the twins.
and as an Aussie nationalist, I hope the twins stay with Jayco Gerry, because they know the Australians run a clean team
#Poe's_law
Re:
yeah nah yeah...
i am sorry to say it, but if you are an A personility type competitive professional sportsman, you would have to be an idiot NOT to dope. It is a very easy question, to dope, or not to dope.
If you love the sport, and dont wish to dope, you can compete in Cat 1 or A grade, or domestic professional racing, for the intrinsic motivation... I dont say you have to dope to make cycling the centrepiece of your life and profession. You just dont get the big bucks on the continent.
If you want the big bucks, you need to take the plunge, not my rules.
Insider v Outsider
Yesalis and Hoberman and Savulescu and Goldman and Catlin and Hardie and other academics have studied this...
kwikki said:
yeah nah yeah...
i am sorry to say it, but if you are an A personility type competitive professional sportsman, you would have to be an idiot NOT to dope. It is a very easy question, to dope, or not to dope.
If you love the sport, and dont wish to dope, you can compete in Cat 1 or A grade, or domestic professional racing, for the intrinsic motivation... I dont say you have to dope to make cycling the centrepiece of your life and profession. You just dont get the big bucks on the continent.
If you want the big bucks, you need to take the plunge, not my rules.
Insider v Outsider
Yesalis and Hoberman and Savulescu and Goldman and Catlin and Hardie and other academics have studied this...
Re: Re:
would you be a willing consumer of indirect evidence and understanding of human psychology and competitive Type A personalities thrown into the cauldron of the professional peloton where PEDs are the default position, where the Wattage improvement in the third week on the final ascent of the queen stage may be 20%, that marginal gains are not the rounding error on a comprehensive Ferrari program, and when the Olympic events in T&F and swimming and trackcycling are separated by a fraction of 1%. say... 0.03%.
indirect evidence, sentient brain, is compelling.
gazr99 said:
would you be a willing consumer of indirect evidence and understanding of human psychology and competitive Type A personalities thrown into the cauldron of the professional peloton where PEDs are the default position, where the Wattage improvement in the third week on the final ascent of the queen stage may be 20%, that marginal gains are not the rounding error on a comprehensive Ferrari program, and when the Olympic events in T&F and swimming and trackcycling are separated by a fraction of 1%. say... 0.03%.
indirect evidence, sentient brain, is compelling.
Re: Re:
So much wrong there indirect says it all. You are stereotyping athletes with the same personality type and presuming there is definitely PED's in peleton to prove that there is PED's. To be fair when was Wiggins data seen for people to say there was a 20% wattage improvement
blackcat said:
So much wrong there indirect says it all. You are stereotyping athletes with the same personality type and presuming there is definitely PED's in peleton to prove that there is PED's. To be fair when was Wiggins data seen for people to say there was a 20% wattage improvement
The whole British Cycling / Team Sky success story is 25 years old this year. Who would have thought the tireless amount of work Keen did at Bishop Otter College on his research programme on the physical limitations to pursuit racing and he continued with Boardman from 1987 to 1992 to get that first ever British medal in an Olympic cycling event would then develop into the U23 Road Accademy Brailsford & Ellingworth started in 2004 and just 6 years later would start Team Sky in 2010 and 2 years after that a win in Tour de France with a pursuit rider originally coached by Keen using his methods and research programme on the physical limitations to pursuit racing? What a waste of 21 years, when all they needed to do was pop a few weight loss pills down Wiggins throat and rock up in a shiny bus and win Tour de France all along!
Re:
It was really a culmination of years of corruption/burned athletes and cycling insiders. Had Armstrong just stayed retired McQuaid would still probably be President.
Define "smoking gun." There were countless demands for a "smoking gun" with Armstrong for years. And, to date, Armstrong has still never tested positive.
The cracks in the sporting fraud schemes in the UK are beginning to show. I think it's going to happen much slower than it did for Armstrong and the UCI, but, it will fall apart and the UCI will, again, be implicated.
kwikki said:
It was really a culmination of years of corruption/burned athletes and cycling insiders. Had Armstrong just stayed retired McQuaid would still probably be President.
Define "smoking gun." There were countless demands for a "smoking gun" with Armstrong for years. And, to date, Armstrong has still never tested positive.
The cracks in the sporting fraud schemes in the UK are beginning to show. I think it's going to happen much slower than it did for Armstrong and the UCI, but, it will fall apart and the UCI will, again, be implicated.
Re: Re:
I was not talking about Brad, I was giving you a rule of thumb control sample, third week GT and Tour de France queen stage. might get 20% and time to exhaustion,
definitely NOT Brailsford marginal gains
gazr99 said:
I was not talking about Brad, I was giving you a rule of thumb control sample, third week GT and Tour de France queen stage. might get 20% and time to exhaustion,
definitely NOT Brailsford marginal gains
Re: Re:
gazr99 wants the smoking gun like the non prosecution of PaulaPaulaPaula Radcliffe.
if the duck quacks like a duck and tortured metaphors and analogies where you have conflated your poulet and poultry, does the duck really dope and quack?
no, INNOCENT!
DirtyWorks said:
gazr99 wants the smoking gun like the non prosecution of PaulaPaulaPaula Radcliffe.
if the duck quacks like a duck and tortured metaphors and analogies where you have conflated your poulet and poultry, does the duck really dope and quack?
no, INNOCENT!
Re: Re:
Yes 20% improvement would definitely raise eyebrows. However, it would have to be in context the latest tactic that seems to be bring implemented is training to be strong in the 3rd week not just survive. So staying quiet early on, conserving energy to be prepared for that final week
blackcat said:
Yes 20% improvement would definitely raise eyebrows. However, it would have to be in context the latest tactic that seems to be bring implemented is training to be strong in the 3rd week not just survive. So staying quiet early on, conserving energy to be prepared for that final week
Re:
They never imagined Landis would gain any credence and that is would snowball.
"they liked their credibility", "they had done too much for too many people"
Sky are a British team and part of the establishment, TeamGB. If they dont upset too many people, all should be rosy in an Englishman's garden.
kwikki said:
They never imagined Landis would gain any credence and that is would snowball.
"they liked their credibility", "they had done too much for too many people"
Sky are a British team and part of the establishment, TeamGB. If they dont upset too many people, all should be rosy in an Englishman's garden.
Re:
If cycling is clean how are times the same as the times knocked out in the EPO days? The Tour de France is roughly 2,000 miles a year yet the time it takes is roughly the same, surely in clean cycling it should take longer to complete 2,000 miles than it took in the dark, dirty EPO days?
If we look at a race like Paris Roubaix, in the famous 1999 edition they raced 273km in 6h 44'15'', this year they raced 257km in 5h51'53'' it can't be down to tailwinds, surely?
So what changed in the peloton that's made it clean(ER) but they can still race as fast/faster than the great days of EPO? I don't think it's down to evolution.
PS this isn't a dig at Brits. Just it seems you may believe that cycling is clean/cleaner than it once was. So I'd genuinely like to hear your theory/answer on how that happened.
samhocking said:
If cycling is clean how are times the same as the times knocked out in the EPO days? The Tour de France is roughly 2,000 miles a year yet the time it takes is roughly the same, surely in clean cycling it should take longer to complete 2,000 miles than it took in the dark, dirty EPO days?
If we look at a race like Paris Roubaix, in the famous 1999 edition they raced 273km in 6h 44'15'', this year they raced 257km in 5h51'53'' it can't be down to tailwinds, surely?
So what changed in the peloton that's made it clean(ER) but they can still race as fast/faster than the great days of EPO? I don't think it's down to evolution.
PS this isn't a dig at Brits. Just it seems you may believe that cycling is clean/cleaner than it once was. So I'd genuinely like to hear your theory/answer on how that happened.
Re: Re:
again, ceteris paribus, all-things-equal.
there are numerous flaws. Athletes have pursued numerous race strategies to be the strongest over the entire three week bloc, not one particular week isolated, the strategy is to manage your form for the three weeks, and it may mean being stronger or less strong on particular mountain passes like pyrenees or alps.
it is a happy medium balance, the tactics are fungible. Armstrong and Stapleton no doubt would have seen the race route, and then worked out where they could manage their form, and compete, triangulate their tactics to Mayo, or Basso, or his biggest threat. This may mean, making sure he was strongest in Pyrenees. Because Mayo may be able to do more damage there, or on dHuez. Or Lance may just stuff that strategy, and work out his best, and where his peak race was best suited. It could be in a second week timetrial.
I will say however, the final week has much to do with the intra tour doping logistics managed, getting the blood bags, and Leinders there for the cortisone insulin testo hgh IGF etc and epo.
GameTheory, often your tactics wont merely include yourself, they will include your riding to shut down, or prevent your competitor from beating you.
Why did Froome go to grab time early? Worried about Quintana, does not give a $h!t about anyone esle, he just wishes to gut NQ off at the pass. So his ~20seconds when you add in his bonifications, could be a negative economy, we just wait to see how much energy OVERandABOVE he expended to get his 20secs.
You do nothing in isolation. It is not a strategy to peak in the third week. This underestimates Froome and Brailsford and their directeurs and their intelligence, they will have scoped most of the potential scenarios. And they will have considered risk management and unknowables(Rummy rumsfeld) and to be prepared for when $h!t gets real on the road, and something occurs.
edit:meant, "cut NQ off at the pass" not "gut NQ off at the pass", but that works too, mebbe better, like Ned Beattie and the Mountain Men reaming him male on male in Deliverance.
gazr99 said:
again, ceteris paribus, all-things-equal.
there are numerous flaws. Athletes have pursued numerous race strategies to be the strongest over the entire three week bloc, not one particular week isolated, the strategy is to manage your form for the three weeks, and it may mean being stronger or less strong on particular mountain passes like pyrenees or alps.
it is a happy medium balance, the tactics are fungible. Armstrong and Stapleton no doubt would have seen the race route, and then worked out where they could manage their form, and compete, triangulate their tactics to Mayo, or Basso, or his biggest threat. This may mean, making sure he was strongest in Pyrenees. Because Mayo may be able to do more damage there, or on dHuez. Or Lance may just stuff that strategy, and work out his best, and where his peak race was best suited. It could be in a second week timetrial.
I will say however, the final week has much to do with the intra tour doping logistics managed, getting the blood bags, and Leinders there for the cortisone insulin testo hgh IGF etc and epo.
GameTheory, often your tactics wont merely include yourself, they will include your riding to shut down, or prevent your competitor from beating you.
Why did Froome go to grab time early? Worried about Quintana, does not give a $h!t about anyone esle, he just wishes to gut NQ off at the pass. So his ~20seconds when you add in his bonifications, could be a negative economy, we just wait to see how much energy OVERandABOVE he expended to get his 20secs.
You do nothing in isolation. It is not a strategy to peak in the third week. This underestimates Froome and Brailsford and their directeurs and their intelligence, they will have scoped most of the potential scenarios. And they will have considered risk management and unknowables(Rummy rumsfeld) and to be prepared for when $h!t gets real on the road, and something occurs.
edit:meant, "cut NQ off at the pass" not "gut NQ off at the pass", but that works too, mebbe better, like Ned Beattie and the Mountain Men reaming him male on male in Deliverance.
Re: Re:
Froome has done no staying quiet, not conserved any energy so how can he be prepared for the final week?
Yesterday he followed every attack up the final climb. Day before he attacked and rode away on the descent and kept the chasing GC contenders at bay.
gazr99 said:
Froome has done no staying quiet, not conserved any energy so how can he be prepared for the final week?
Yesterday he followed every attack up the final climb. Day before he attacked and rode away on the descent and kept the chasing GC contenders at bay.
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