Brits don't dope?

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Jun 4, 2015
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Fergoose said:
The Carrot said:
1. Individual having intrinsic natural ability and top drawer training and facilities to master the fundamental technical aspects of those sports

vs

2. Individual having intrinsic natural ability and top drawer training and facilities to master the fundamental technical aspects of those sports PLUS DOPING.


We have a winner

Realistically, the impact of doping on a gymnast or divers score is going to be an infintesible factor compared to be factors I list due to the technical nature of the discipline. Plus there has never been identification of doping in those sports despite major scandals embroiling athletics / cycling etc over the same period.

Doping is always risk vs reward and I cannot see why anyone in those disciplines would ever seek the minimal benefit of doping, and the associated risk, other than perhaps to aid recovery from an injury (which again isn't a major factor in those sports).

I think you are in a tiny minority and bereft of any semblance of evidence if you think that doping in top level gymnastics and diving is an issue and that it in any way contributed to the success of GB, Russian, Chinese and US athletes in these disciplines over the years. I find it hard to even take such a position seriously.


The fact that there have been no major scandals doesn't mean much. I agree that doping might not be as beneficial as say for cycling but you're dealing with people you would murder for a 0.1% advantage at that level and so doping must occur. Anyway, have you seen the physiques on divers and gymnasts these days, this means that they must do a lot of strength training and we know what helps that along. Lottery funding potentially encourages doping, it only rewards success, the risk of not winning is losing your livelihood, your dream and face a life of stacking shelves.
 
Aug 24, 2011
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Lottery funding:

1) You can easily take the angle that it encourages doping, through rewarding of success and as long as you don't get caught...

2) you can easily take the opposite position, that the risk/reward ratio is skewed by risking the lottery funding so people really are pushed away from doping.

Either position can easily be argued, I was firmly in camp #2, but certainly am not there any more.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Cyclist Anna Meares has joined a growing number of Olympic athletes and coaches demanding to know how Team Great Britain got so good.

After a disappointing 10th place result in the individual track sprint in Rio on Monday, Meares, who is Australia's Olympic captain, turned her attention to the over-performing British cyclists.

They've done exceedingly well in Brazil, and Meares said it wasn't just the Australian team who had questions about the British

'The British are just phenomenal when it comes to the Olympic Games, and we're all just scratching our heads going 'how do they lift so much when in so many events they have not even been in contention in the world championships?,' she was quoted as saying.


'They've got it together, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure what they've got together.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3742770/Australian-cyclist-Anna-Meares-questions-British-team-Rio-got-good.html#ixzz4HVSByKYe
 
May 26, 2010
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thehog said:
Cyclist Anna Meares has joined a growing number of Olympic athletes and coaches demanding to know how Team Great Britain got so good.

After a disappointing 10th place result in the individual track sprint in Rio on Monday, Meares, who is Australia's Olympic captain, turned her attention to the over-performing British cyclists.

They've done exceedingly well in Brazil, and Meares said it wasn't just the Australian team who had questions about the British

'The British are just phenomenal when it comes to the Olympic Games, and we're all just scratching our heads going 'how do they lift so much when in so many events they have not even been in contention in the world championships?,' she was quoted as saying.


'They've got it together, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure what they've got together.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3742770/Australian-cyclist-Anna-Meares-questions-British-team-Rio-got-good.html#ixzz4HVSByKYe

As Wiggins would say, she's just bitter :lol:
 

thehog

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Asked if she thought Britain was gaining advantages through cycling technology, Meares said: "I'm not sure about the technology. I know that the Australian team and Andy Warr in particular has done a marvelous job with the technology that he's developed in the last two years for our team."

Joining the dots...
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Catwhoorg said:
Lottery funding:

1) You can easily take the angle that it encourages doping, through rewarding of success and as long as you don't get caught...

2) you can easily take the opposite position, that the risk/reward ratio is skewed by risking the lottery funding so people really are pushed away from doping.

Either position can easily be argued, I was firmly in camp #2, but certainly am not there any more.


I guess it could depend on the individual. My view is that if an athlete is under performing they will loose their funding, whereas doping could get them to a position where funding is secure as long as they don't get caught, i.e they might loose their funding.
 
Mar 31, 2015
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The secret to Trott and the women's team pursuit success? No shaving or waxing of pubic hairs, according to Helen Pidd of The Guardian. A new marginal gain, to help with saddle sores.
 
May 26, 2010
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Brullnux said:
The secret to Trott and the women's team pursuit success? No shaving or waxing of pubic hairs, according to Helen Pidd of The Guardian. A new marginal gain, to help with saddle sores.

Maybe when Leinders arrived at teamSky the riders stopped shaving or waxing theirs :rolleyes:
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Fergoose said:
The one that lasted all too briefly after 2007 and saw major TdF contendors caught out in a way they hadn't done previously and hadn't done since. Would you deny that antidoping had a more effective period in 2007/08 (if we include Kohl and his Geralsteiner teammate whose name escapes me) perhaps due to a temporary breakthrough in their investigative options that has since been countered by the likes of Vino (2012) and Horner?

Personally I can't think of another period of 12-24 months when antidoping in cycling had such successes against riders so high in their classifications. No other time when, if I was a rider, I'd have been so nervous about doping. This coincided with the rise of UK cycling. Whether that is a coincidence or not, I think it is as valid an interpretation of that graph as saying that it indicates UK cyclists started doping post 2004 but that their rowers have always doped (or never doped).
While I agree that 2008 was the cleanest year in recent memory (at least in terms of profile of riders caught, scale of doping you could get away with), there we are talking almost specifically about the road, because a lot of it was to do with AFLD and the secrecy with which they shrouded the CERA test. It also has a lot to do with the extremely long half-life of CERA compared to first- and second-generation EPO, so that once the test was known, many riders had several weeks of hoping they wouldn't get tested. In addition to this, you had two fairly high profile busts where the riders who were caught talked, helping the anti-doping authorities to make further inroads - Sinkewitz in 2007 and Sella in 2008. As an endurance drug, CERA is of limited use to track specialists anyhow - yes for Points/Scratch/Madison racing, less so for sprints.

Also, the issue is that saying 2007-8 is where the British cycling successes took hold is a little simplistic a view; it may be where the attention paid to the development of British riders took hold, with the success of Cavendish in GT stages for the first time followed by the gold rush at the Olympics, but at that point Wiggins was still in the autobus on the road, focusing almost entirely on the track, Thomas was a mere prospect, and the only success on the road in Beijing came from the women, with Nicole Cooke who had been an established pro for five years before that, so hardly a sign of Britain 'emerging'.

Wiggins' breakthrough as a road rider came in 2009. Unfortunately for him, the return of Lance Armstrong and the not-strictly-related-but-quite-easy-to-join-dots situation with Pierre Bordry and AFLD not having the same control of testing at the Tour coincided with that; given what we now know, it would in fact appear that Wiggins' rise actually coincides with a period where doping became worse, not better. By that point Cav is well established and Millar is in his post-suspension niche, but even then the British riders are hardly at the forefront. They qualify six riders for Mendrisio, but only Cummings and Hammond - neither of whom can be classed as "emerging talents" - can finish the race. At the start of Team Sky in 2010, the claim that they will win the Tour with a British rider within five years is scoffed at, seemingly rightfully so, with only Wiggins - at that point a 29-year-old one hit wonder - an even remotely reasonable shout. In order to create a sufficient British identity at the start of the team, they have to pay over the odds to break contracts for Ben Swift as well as Wiggins and promote Continental-level journeymen to the World Tour, and yet apart from Cav they still have every single high profile British man at that level. They only qualify 3 riders for the Worlds, and all of them pull out.

On the road, realistically, 2011 is the rise of British cycling, with Wiggins Mk III emerging with his victory in the Dauphiné, Cav finally getting that maillot vert then the World Championships race, and the emergence of Froome.
 
Aug 15, 2016
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Libertine Seguros said:
On the road, realistically, 2011 is the rise of British cycling, with Wiggins Mk III emerging with his victory in the Dauphiné, Cav finally getting that maillot vert then the World Championships race, and the emergence of Froome.

Yeah, it's worth bearing in mind that Cavendish won BBC Sports Personality of the Year at that point because it was the most a British cyclist had achieved since Simpson, and at that point I don't think anyone really believed things would get radically better on the road - I imagine most (especially the wider public) probably thought that was as good as it was going to get. Wiggins had been one of the favourites for the Tour that year prior to his crash but I'm not sure too many were totally convinced he'd win it, even after his staggering performances in 2009, and certainly no one saw Froome's rise coming, mainly because hardly anyone outside the cycling fraternity knew who he was prior to the 2012 TdF

I do think Cav can be considered separately from the rest as he'd been world class since 2007. He's a figure who could have popped up in isolation in any of the last 3 decades, like the Millars or Boardman. But after the rise of BC on the track in 2000-08 (I remember Queally's gold well) and Sky coming along after that, suddenly there's this flood of rapidly improving riders. I was playing PCM 2008 a few months ago, which provides a nice little look into the perspectives of riders' abilities and potentials at the time, so I had a look through the ratings of the likes of Froome, Cummings and Thomas who were still at Barloworld at that point - it's fair to say they were never expected to do much in their careers, even in road TT

To me, even looking back, it seems somehow implausible that a guy like Wiggins could go from dominating on the track to winning the Tour de France. It just doesn't make any sense
 
Dec 23, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
Every member of TeamGB cycling has won a medal at Rio!!!!

That level of dominance not normal.
Nope, it isn't 'normal'.

It just shows how special we are at cycling :lol:
 
May 26, 2010
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Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.

Let's remind ourselves how those clean living East Germans became such fantastic olympic champions.......
 
Jul 5, 2014
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Benotti69 said:
Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.

Let's remind ourselves how those clean living East Germans became such fantastic olympic champions.......

Woah. But I was thinking part of that could be due to the fact that a lot of Russian athletes haven't been allowed to take part? Still, it's definitely suspicious.
 
May 9, 2014
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Benotti69 said:
Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.

Let's remind ourselves how those clean living East Germans became such fantastic olympic champions.......

One thing that should be considered is the fact that GB spend a similar amount of money on sport as USA and China, unlike any other nation these days

Another thing that should be considered is GB's strikingly quick, recent improvement in athletics, cycling, gymnastics and swimming: sports where there is definitely a high amount of suspicion regarding doping.
That said, they have also improved a lot in other sports such as diving, judo and canoeing, which are more skill based and less endurance based.

So while doping possibly does have a hand, the facilities and support available to British athletes is very very good, and there are many reasons why GB are doing so well, which can't be attributed purely to any doping programmes
 
Feb 6, 2016
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PremierAndrew said:
Benotti69 said:
Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.

Let's remind ourselves how those clean living East Germans became such fantastic olympic champions.......

One thing that should be considered is the fact that GB spend a similar amount of money on sport as USA and China, unlike any other nation these days

Another thing that should be considered is GB's strikingly quick, recent improvement in athletics, cycling, gymnastics and swimming: sports where there is definitely a high amount of suspicion regarding doping.
That said, they have also improved a lot in other sports such as diving, judo and canoeing, which are more skill based and less endurance based.

So while doping possibly does have a hand, the facilities and support available to British athletes is very very good, and there are many reasons why GB are doing so well, which can't be attributed purely to any doping programmes

Also, and I don't know how to say this, but the other guys might be doping too.
Having a better illegally performance-enhancing programme = having a better legal one, too.
 
May 9, 2014
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Re: Re:

Cannibal72 said:
PremierAndrew said:
Benotti69 said:
Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.

Let's remind ourselves how those clean living East Germans became such fantastic olympic champions.......

One thing that should be considered is the fact that GB spend a similar amount of money on sport as USA and China, unlike any other nation these days

Another thing that should be considered is GB's strikingly quick, recent improvement in athletics, cycling, gymnastics and swimming: sports where there is definitely a high amount of suspicion regarding doping.
That said, they have also improved a lot in other sports such as diving, judo and canoeing, which are more skill based and less endurance based.

So while doping possibly does have a hand, the facilities and support available to British athletes is very very good, and there are many reasons why GB are doing so well, which can't be attributed purely to any doping programmes

Also, and I don't know how to say this, but the other guys might be doping too.
Having a better illegally performance-enhancing programme = having a better legal one, too.

Fully agree with that last sentence
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.


GB are doing well (for whatever reasons), but also China are doing really badly.
 
Apr 7, 2015
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Cannibal72 said:
PremierAndrew said:
Benotti69 said:
Quick Fact

If team GB can stay ahead of China, they'll be first smaller nation to gatecrash top two of olympic medal table since East Germany in 1988.

Let's remind ourselves how those clean living East Germans became such fantastic olympic champions.......

One thing that should be considered is the fact that GB spend a similar amount of money on sport as USA and China, unlike any other nation these days

Another thing that should be considered is GB's strikingly quick, recent improvement in athletics, cycling, gymnastics and swimming: sports where there is definitely a high amount of suspicion regarding doping.
That said, they have also improved a lot in other sports such as diving, judo and canoeing, which are more skill based and less endurance based.

So while doping possibly does have a hand, the facilities and support available to British athletes is very very good, and there are many reasons why GB are doing so well, which can't be attributed purely to any doping programmes

Also, and I don't know how to say this, but the other guys might be doping too.
Having a better illegally performance-enhancing programme = having a better legal one, too.
I think everybody can agree to that. The big point of discussion seems to be just how much space the illegal one ococcupies within the total program.
 
Sep 14, 2011
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Amazing how much cheating the Brits are getting away with. Cavendish and Kenny should have both been disqualified for blatant cheating. Now I have seen some Brit in the high jump getting a white flag for knocking the bar over! Seems like the Brits have the judges in their pockets.
 
Aug 10, 2016
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Well, the keirin race was such an obvious example of the big guys getting away with murder that it's not even funny. Zero out of three pretty straightforward DQs were handed out.