Brits don't dope?

[wrinklyvet]

@King Boonen - Not intended as any criticism of you but as a general comment on the subject of this string of posts to which you had responded, which has running through it on the part of some posters a general doubt about Froome's nationality. I can't see the point of that. Obama suffered from a bit of this on other facts and circumstances. What you said was right, of course, but why go round and round the houses on this (as I know has been done before)? I like to read the Clinic even if i don't always post. It seems to have turned lately to very thin gruel. I look forward to seeing new material. Too much to hope that anyone can put this issue to bed. ;-)

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

@King Boonen - Not intended as any criticism of you but as a general comment on the subject of this string of posts to which you had responded, which has running through it on the part of some posters a general doubt about Froome's nationality. I can't see the point of that. Obama suffered from a bit of this on other facts and circumstances. What you said was right, of course, but why go round and round the houses on this (as I know has been done before)? I like to read the Clinic even if i don't always post. It seems to have turned lately to very thin gruel. I look forward to seeing new material. Too much to hope that anyone can put this issue to bed. ;-)

I usually correct things that I read in the clinic which are factually wrong, whether I'm interested in the discussion or not. In this case there are very specific guidelines for British citizenship, just like there are for any other country. I had a classmate at school who was born abroad and whose parents were both British by descent and they had to go through the additional paperwork to prove they had lived in the UK for a certain amount of time and whatever else is required.

As I said, I don't really care what nationality people think Froome is and this alls seems to be some kind of meta-argument over the fact three Brits have won the three tours and how this might tie in with the idea of general corruption within cycling and so on that is now meandering dangerously down a track towards xenophobic discussions if people aren't careful.

In specific terms, Froome holds a British passport and is therefore a British citizen. What people "think" is British seems wholly irrelevant to me, but I'm not going to stop people discussing it within the rules of the forum.

 

[VO2 Max]

:lol: :lol: :lol: The guy was Kenyan for as long as needed to be able to ride international events and thereby get onto a European-based Pro-Conti team. When talk started of the BC road team that became Sky (and would clearly need British riders to justify its existence) then he took up the British citizenship that he was always entitled to. At worst those were rational/cynical career-focused decisions. From a clinic point of view what's relevant is that he was not a BC Academy/WCPP/ODP/Olympic track rider (even Yates having been a points race world champion) so isn't part of the system, not a lifer/insider in the way that Wiggins and Thomas are.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Froome is British by descent, Kenyan by emigration, it's as simple as that. It doesn't matter where he was born, where he grew up or where he lives. If he has descended from a parent who is a British Citizen you are British. His British Grandparents emigrated to Kenya, so he is also Kenyan, just like if anyone emigrated to another Country.

By domicile, he is Kenyan.

By birth, he is British.

Culturally, he is a white african who lives in Monaco.

Wiggo might have been born in Belgium to an Aussie father, but culturally, he is as 'British' as Paul Weller or David Beckham (Or me, who was born in the States, but no one believes it).

So if you ask me, how many Brits have won a GT, I think three have won one each. That's not rational, it's emotional.

This probably explains why the British public have warmed to him in the way they warmed to Zola Budd :lol:

This is only really important when it comes to things like Sports Personality of the Year

By birth he is Kenyan as he was born there

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

:lol: :lol: :lol: The guy was Kenyan for as long as needed to be able to ride international events and thereby get onto a European-based Pro-Conti team. When talk started of the BC road team that became Sky (and would clearly need British riders to justify its existence) then he took up the British citizenship that he was always entitled to. At worst those were rational/cynical career-focused decisions. From a clinic point of view what's relevant is that he was not a BC Academy/WCPP/ODP/Olympic track rider (even Yates having been a points race world champion) so isn't part of the system, not a lifer/insider in the way that Wiggins and Thomas are.

Again, based on what Froome has said, this is wrong:

"Froome began his international career with Kenya at the 2007 World time trial championships but a chance meeting with Great Britain coach Rod Ellingworth at the Giro delle Regione in 2007, where he won a stage, changed all that. As Froome recalls: “Although I was riding under the Kenyan flag I made it clear that I had always carried a British passport and felt British. It was then tha talked about racing under the Union Jack, and we stayed in touch.”"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/9390834/Tour-de-France-2012-Chris-Froome-at-the-top-as-the-race-hits-high-notes-in-cruel-mountain-stages.html

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

Froome is British by descent, Kenyan by emigration, it's as simple as that. It doesn't matter where he was born, where he grew up or where he lives. If he has descended from a parent who is a British Citizen you are British. His British Grandparents emigrated to Kenya, so he is also Kenyan, just like if anyone emigrated to another Country.

By domicile, he is Kenyan.

By birth, he is British.

Culturally, he is a white african who lives in Monaco.

Wiggo might have been born in Belgium to an Aussie father, but culturally, he is as 'British' as Paul Weller or David Beckham (Or me, who was born in the States, but no one believes it).

So if you ask me, how many Brits have won a GT, I think three have won one each. That's not rational, it's emotional.

This probably explains why the British public have warmed to him in the way they warmed to Zola Budd :lol:

This is only really important when it comes to things like Sports Personality of the Year

By birth he is Kenyan as he was born there

As you know from our earlier discussion, this is invalid though in Europe. And he is not claiming to be American, so European principles shall apply.

 

[python]

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

 

[rick james]

Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

what's an unlucky doper?

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

what's an unlucky doper?

one who gets caught (and sanctioned)

 

[wansteadimp]

Re: Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

what's an unlucky doper?

LRP?

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

what's an unlucky doper?

Jesus Manzano?

 

[rick james]

A non believer in the omerta...not unlucky

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

A non believer in the omerta...not unlucky

Right... you do know why he turned, don’t you?

 

[python]

Re: Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

what's an unlucky doper?

since i did not use the phrase, your question is pointless...

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

what's an unlucky doper?

since i did not use the phrase, your question is pointless...

Lucky doping needs to be added to the prohibited list, it's not fair only the unlucky dopers get caught!

 

[Archibald]

Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

his nationality is easily determined, and in this he's just like Geraint Thomas, Andy Murray, etc;
when they win, they're British,
when they lose, they're Welsh/Kenyan/Scottish/[insert birth country here]

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I never cared for froome...in fact, I am convinced he's a lucky doper. yet, people should, despite the various ways available, allow the Dawg to cast the last word on his nationality.

Being a Euro mutt myself growing up in several countries and living in many more I always wondered wtf strangers seemed to know more about my ethnicity/nationality than I myself...

his nationality is easily determined, and in this he's just like Geraint Thomas, Andy Murray, etc;
when they win, they're British,
when they lose, they're Welsh/Kenyan/Scottish/[insert birth country here]

"when they lose, they're Welsh/Kenyan/Scottish/[insert birth country here]"

How soon before Wiggin's become's Belgian born? :lol:

 

[Winterfold]

Re: Re:

Froome is British by descent, Kenyan by emigration, it's as simple as that. It doesn't matter where he was born, where he grew up or where he lives. If he has descended from a parent who is a British Citizen you are British. His British Grandparents emigrated to Kenya, so he is also Kenyan, just like if anyone emigrated to another Country.

By domicile, he is Kenyan.

By birth, he is British.

Culturally, he is a white african who lives in Monaco.

Wiggo might have been born in Belgium to an Aussie father, but culturally, he is as 'British' as Paul Weller or David Beckham (Or me, who was born in the States, but no one believes it).

So if you ask me, how many Brits have won a GT, I think three have won one each. That's not rational, it's emotional.

This probably explains why the British public have warmed to him in the way they warmed to Zola Budd :lol:

This is only really important when it comes to things like Sports Personality of the Year

By birth he is Kenyan as he was born there

That's what domicile means.

 

[samhocking]

By Domicile is not the same as by Birth. Domicile is to do with your residency. I was born in Italy, but I can't be an Italian citizen by domicile, because my parents are British, Grandparents British and neither have ever been an Italian Citizen. The only reason Froome can have dual citizenship is because his Grandparents emigrated to Kenya.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

By birth he is Kenyan as he was born there

One hates having to quote the old Iron Duke but being born in a stable does not make one a horse. Kenya uses jus sanguinis not jus soli.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

By birth he is Kenyan as he was born there

That's what domicile means.

Seriously? Someone call the Oxford English people...

It's like Alice in Wonderland round here. Words mean what people choose them to mean.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

I can't be an Italian citizen by domicile

Except of course that you can. Four years domicle allows to you apply for naturalisation.

Still, facts, why let them get in the way...

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

I can't be an Italian citizen by domicile

Except of course that you can. Four years domicle allows to you apply for naturalisation.

Still, facts, why let them get in the way...

Agreed, but the point is not how do you become Kenyan. My example is purely to show, where I was born makes no difference to my British Citizenship (for most countries). Obviously if where you were born gave you citizenship, people would be flying all over the World to give birth.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Obviously if where you were born gave you citizenship, people would be flying all over the World to give birth.

Some countries that use the jus soli principle:

* Argentina
* Brazil
* Canada
* Mexico
* Pakistan
* United States
* Venezuela

Obvs, visiting these countries is difficult as their airports are crammed to over-flowing with people flying all over the World to give birth...

Still, when in a hole, keep digging....

 

[samhocking]

Which is not most countries as I stated. We are talking about Kenya & Britain. No problem digging a hole, but you're in the wrong countries lol!