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Teams & Riders Brothers in (crank) arms - Yates Discussion Thread

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jaylew said:
Doesn't seem like a straw man to me. And I was thinking the same thing. Even more so when you say that the Vasco says more to you GC-wise than what you've seen from Chaves.

You can argue that Adam Yates has shown more potential there so far but it's certainly not clear cut. And lets not forget that Chaves is coming off of major injuries that kept him out for basically an entire year. That has to be taken under consideration as do his fine results the year before that injury.

Of course it must be said that I have nothing against Simon. In fact, I like his style and I hope he becomes a great rider.

The straw man was picking a lesser result from the wrong brother.

Adam's results are clearly more numerous, consistent and impressive. I watched both those stage wins live and they were good rides, but they were a sideshow for the GC riders who did not engage. It's very different to being a genuine player in the race. I'm sure he can be in the future, but it seems daft to pretend he has shown it already after 2 good rides and lots of races trundling in the bus.

My original post on this was in response to a pretty peevish suggestion that Simon couldn't be justified over Chaves without nationality. It struck me as an odd observation given neither of those 2 have the strongest results in that cohort.
 
Bushman said:
Adam Yates' results this year has certainly been more impressive than Chaves' this year considering he is a first year pro. However, regarding long term potential, you should also consider the injury that kept Chaves out for all of 2013. Look at his Vuelta a Burgos in 2012. If not for his injury he would probably have a higher level right now.

It is also a bit silly writing off Chaves stage wins because he wasn't a marked man. I dont think Adam Yates were the biggest concern of the favourites either.

Yates was marked in Cali as he threatened the Podium. He was marked in Turkey when he attacked for stage and GC (not a great standard, but no lower than Cali).

He wasn't a grave concern to anyone at the Dauphine, but that race was levels above Suisse in class and climbing pace.

They're all good riders. I just took umbridge at shoehorning Chaves in when the obvious omission, if you must raise one, was his own brother. Chavez will ride the Vuelta as is already oft quoted.
 
Waterloo Sunrise said:
Yates was marked in Cali as he threatened the Podium. He was marked in Turkey when he attacked for stage and GC (not a great standard, but no lower than Cali).

He wasn't a grave concern to anyone at the Dauphine, but that race was levels above Suisse in class and climbing pace.

They're all good riders. I just took umbridge at shoehorning Chaves in when the obvious omission, if you must raise one, was his own brother. Chavez will ride the Vuelta as is already oft quoted.

Yates was marked in Cali yes, and although he did a great race he didn't win anything. His victory in Turkey was good, but do you seriously regard the competition as strong as in Cali?? :confused:
To sum up my initial point: I agree that Adam Yates has had a more impressive season than Chaves so far, however to insinuate that even Simon Yates might have had a better season so far is utter bias (I know he has been injured since Turkey)

Edit: just to be clear, I believe the choice of taking Simon to the Tour over Chaves was the right choice.
 
Bushman said:
to insinuate that even Simon Yates might have had a better season so far is utter bias (I know he has been injured since Turkey)

.

I'm comfortable with my opinions - I've always viewed stage wins from people not in contention and not defended against as similar to pre-season testing times. Often impressive, but no real proof Williams are quicker than Mercedes. Chavez has had plenty of races to ride with the favourites this year but it hasn't really happened for him very often, so I can see a case for preferring those who have performed against more certain yardsticks every time, even with a limited sample thanks to that fall.
 
Waterloo Sunrise said:
I'm comfortable with my opinions - I've always viewed stage wins from people not in contention and not defended against as similar to pre-season testing times. Often impressive, but no real proof Williams are quicker than Mercedes. Chavez has had plenty of races to ride with the favourites this year but it hasn't really happened for him very often, so I can see a case for preferring those who have performed against more certain yardsticks every time, even with a limited sample thanks to that fall.

As i said I agree that taking Simon to the Tour was the right decision. I just fail to see how stage wins in Cali and Suisse aren't more impressive than 12th overall in Basque and 6th overall in Slovenie? I dont think it is fair to write off Chaves results that way. In Cali he was in top ten at the gc and a threat to the other riders aiming for gc and in Suisse he won by being the only one to follow Kreuziger and Mollema and counter attacking them.

Well, back on topic. Simon will of course has to work for Gerrans on second stage. Where will he get his chances to ride his own chance? In some of the Classic breakaway stages?
 
murali said:
:confused:
did i confuse him with the other brother?

either way, i think the brothers need more trust. i dont feel tht he will struggle over the 3 weeks.

Unless he crashes out, i m betting a top-25 finish.

IndianCyclist To do the TDF would be bad for him but the Vuelta is what he should do as the competition would be tired and he would be able to do a Top 20 at least while gaining valuable exp.

One hopes that yesterday's stage (with Yates in the breakaway) and Stage 5 showed just how premature and ill-informed such expectations are.

There is absolutely zero doubt that both Yates have a great deal of ability and have had impressive neo-pro seasons to date. Whether one or both actually have what it takes to be GC contenders for Grand Tours is yet to be established .... and is unlikely to be so for a couple of seasons.

They need to be able to finish a GT firstly and it is unlikely OGE will compromise their development by placing that demand this year.

What Yates' showing so far has demonstrated:

- a creditable showing on Stg 7 where his long "pull" on the front on the 1st Cat.3 was instrumental is splitting the field and eliminating the big sprinters.
- getting into the Stg8 break wasn't easy and staying away for as long as he did was highly creditable.
- he stayed upright on the wet roads and pave of Stg 5 ...... but was clearly not equipped to keep with the key contenders.
- he was unable to "hold on" on Stg 2 or Stg8. A lack of race miles and experience at this top level and his lack of race savvy was shown when he was caught at the back when Chavanel & Kadri made their moves at the base of the first Cat2. He may not have "had the legs" but he was caught comprehensibly on the back foot in the first place.

I suspect OGE will "pull the pin" at some stage during this week which will already be taking considerably past his previous longest race duration. His performances have been creditable and will have gained great experience.

Hopefully both Yates will finish this season illness and in good fitness and can therefore have a preparation that will allow them to take on greater expectations for 2015 including those of finishing their 1st GT. One suspects it will be the end of 2016 at the earliest that we'll have a more realistic gauge as to where either or both twin's real abilities lie.
 
Great ride today from Yates, 4th last guy to be caught of the 17 man breakaway in very good company on terrain which doesn't really suit him - stronger showing than his first attempt last weekend so bodes well for his 3 week stamina.

Also nice to see Bardet going so well, just a month after going head to head with Adam in the Dauphine.
 
Waterloo Sunrise said:
Great ride today from Yates, 4th last guy to be caught of the 17 man breakaway in very good company on terrain which doesn't really suit him - stronger showing than his first attempt last weekend so bodes well for his 3 week stamina.

Also nice to see Bardet going so well, just a month after going head to head with Adam in the Dauphine.

And he kept riding, finished 3rd of the breakaway today. Great signs.

Very creditable indeed ...... but I still think OGE should "pull the pin" now or at the rest day. He's already gone twice the length of any previous race that he's competed in.

Running him into the ground in his first senior season risks compromising his next season and overall development. Let him finish the season in good fitness and health thus allowing an off-season preparation that will equip him to push for higher goals in 2015 including finishing his first GT and maybe legitimately contending for GT stage wins.
 
May 19, 2011
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Pricey_sky said:
:eek: my bad of course I meant Tuesday. Yes great news and the route should really suit him.

i actually thought they should let him rider the rest of the Tour, if he feels good and up for it. From what I can see, he seems still very fresh.