Bryneel about contador

[dolophonic]

I'm not seeing these quotes in the actual links.. there is no need to embellish.
Seems like Shleck is pretty friendly with Bertie, and has a good sense of humor.

 

[craig1985]

Yes, but thanks to the wonderful world of Twitter, we all get to see LA and JB in all their unfiltered adolescent tantrums. With Lance's money and connections, he really should send his tweets through some PR person. Unlike some guys, LA uncensored does not come off well. He's no Steven de Jongh, Robert Gesink, or Koos Moerenhout who come off as very likeable.

Moerenhout has a song dedicated to him. I have it on my ipod. Not even His Holyness has one dedicated to him.

 

[palmerq]

I think Bruyneel and Lance were distancing themselves from Alberto
because they both knew Alberto was doing naughty things

When Alberto inevitable gets implicated again over naughty things,
Bruyneel and Lance can plead ignorance. Omerta baby!

I think you might be right :S although i hope not.

 

[progressor]

Just because it is limited means of communication does not mean it is ineffective.

Which raises the question why are the vast majority of your posts not related to the subject of the thread and have more to do with individual (or generalizing) posters?

Have you resorted to just disagreeing with me on principal or what? Read my post again, this time try to understand what I'm saying, rather than looking for something to attack.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Have you resorted to just disagreeing with me on principal or what? Read my post again, this time try to understand what I'm saying, rather than looking for something to attack.

I did not attack you - indeed others have been far more critical of your tone than I have.

I asked a genuine question.

 

[progressor]

Ok, so tell me how these two assessments of the same situation are not contradictory.

Unless the we that he was talking about was he and Armstrong on one side and he and Contador on the other side with no direct communication between the two on the ends. Oh but that would tend to disprove your theory (for lack of anything else to call it) that they "will all sit around and and drink wine and laugh about it".



Are you so old that you have gone senile?

'Of course some riders get on better with others but everything was kept cordial'

Seems to marry the two statements fine for me, and if you're taking accuracy, I'll bet my money on the blog b4 the media quote, because schleck has full control of editing the blog. Regardless, I don't see the statements as necessarily contradictory. If you're going to disagree with my point, it'd be best if you understood it first.

On age, I'm not that old - just old enough to realise that the black and white, good guys vs bad guy's is way off. Also old enough to begin to see some of the cycles things go through.

 

[progressor]

i noticed several people have allready responded to some of your comments.....but i have to ask when you say AC keeps it up , what exactly are you referring to? keeps what up?
and as far as having anything in common with armstrong about the only thing i can think of is tour wins , and at least he has a giro and a vuelta to his name....

I am referring to more winning.

its pretty obvious where you stand , so does that mean as the years go by you will also become a contador fan , if as you say he becomes more armstrongesqe....

It clearly isn't obvious, because you're question doesn't reflect an understanding of where I'm coming from. I'll be a 'fan' of neither- as I am now. I might find contador a lot more interesting because I'll have much more knowledge of him. I don't have strong opinions on people I've yet to meet.

 

[progressor]

I did not attack you - indeed others have been far more critical of your tone than I have.

I asked a genuine question.

Fair enough. I don't fully agree with the premise in your question. However - I took on the extremities and warp of the anti armstrong brigade here at the start of posting (after some weeks of reading), because I didn't see a remotely fair playing groung in which to venture. This thread is a good example of that. I think that still needs doing. I'd consider that part of my contribution to this forum, because nearly every thread is full of armstrong bashing, a lot of which is extreme and people who don't buy into the LA hate get abused, ridiculed and condescended to. The worst part is most of them simply disagree with the absoluteness of the LA haters, rather than being anything like LA fans. Once they voice a dissenting opinion in comes a certain crowd of attackers. One in particular goes way overboard, and others proclaim their enthusiasm for his posts. I actually think this forum has some really good stuff, but I couldn't help but call out some of the BS that was/is going on. I have since had to deal with this group on the attack and had to draw a balance between responding to their attempts to pigeonhole and demean me - and seemingly therefore my points - and trying not to get too drawn into their abusive posting styles.
Do you want a group think here where everyone professes their hate for armstrong and love for contador b4 they post anything? I've seen that b4 on american openwheel forums with the CART/ IRL civil war. In the end it all becomes about 'smacking down' dissenting opinions, and the sport event becomes insignificant.

To those outside of maserati thinking of disagreeing with my points. How about

a) Don't disagree with me just for the sake of it

b) You disagree with what I say, not attempt to ridicule me call me *** stupid etc.

c) Don't attempt to portray/ pigeonhole me as a type of person/poster regarding issues I've said nothing about

TFF please don't bother at all, I've heard you're opinion on me enough now. I get the idea.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fair enough. I don't fully agree with the premise in your question. However - I took on the extremities and warp of the anti armstrong brigade here at the start of posting (after some weeks of reading), because I didn't see a remotely fair playing groung in which to venture. This thread is a good example of that. I think that still needs doing. I'd consider that part of my contribution to this forum, because nearly every thread is full of armstrong bashing, a lot of which is extreme and people who don't buy into the LA hate get abused, ridiculed and condescended to. The worst part is most of them simply disagree with the absoluteness of the LA haters, rather than being anything like LA fans. Once they voice a dissenting opinion in comes a certain crowd of attackers. One in particular goes way overboard, and others proclaim their enthusiasm for his posts. I actually think this forum has some really good stuff, but I couldn't help but call out some of the BS that was going on. I have since had to deal with this group on the attack and had to draw a balance between responding to their attempts to pigeonhole and demean me - and seemingly therefore my points - and trying not to get to drawn into their abusive posting styles.

Do you want a group think here where everyone professes their hate for armstrong and love for contador b4 they post anything? I've seen that b4 on american openwheel forums with the CART/ IRL civil war. In the end it all becomes about 'smacking down' dissenting opinions, and the sport event becomes insignificant.

To those outside of maserati thinking of disagreeing with my points. How about

a) Don't disagree with me just for the sake of it

b) You disagree with what I say, not attempt to ridicule me call me *** stupid etc.

c) Don't attempt to portray/ pigeonhole me as a type of person/poster regarding issues I've said nothing about

TFF please don't bother at all, I've heard you're opinion on me enough now. I get the idea.

Thank you for your honest reply - there are a lot of elements that I dont understand in your arguement which is why I was seeking clarification.

This is the part I dont get - you have a, b & c points above- and yet you call people who have a negative opinion of LA haters - which is both inflamatory and "pigeonholing' (sp?) posters.

Wouldnt a more worth while contribution be acheived if you argued the posts and not the poster? Now I do understand you have received a fair amount of flak here - but I believe it has far more to do with your posting style than whatever opinion you may have.

 

[Offtheback]

Johan is a loyal Armstrong guy so you know where he's going to come down between the two. And I agree that the mind games have begun -- they'll need every game they've got to beat Contador if he riders for Caisse.

But I also think Bruyneel is annoyed that Alberto hasn't given him enough credit for building his career and making the best use of Alberto's talent. But hey, Contador is young and a superstar, things get warped and he's annoyed Johan didn't support him more instead of Lance.

For me, Alberto is just young, period. On the plus side, he handled the incredible stress of the tour with Armstrong and still won. That says plenty about his mental strength and confidence. A lot of guys would have cracked. But he still has to mature and having his brother do everything is questionable and maybe unprofessional. We'll see.

He's incredibly lucky Astana screwed their paperwork up so badly that he's free to go. That was a negative sign -- he didn't do much to decide his own fate even as Lance and Bruyneel stripped his car of parts. But Lance had plenty of luck in the tour. Maybe Alberto is not only great but lucky, too.

Twisted Spoke
http://walshworld.wordpress.com/

I have read a few posts on this thread and I think that not enough credit has been given to Bruyneel's management abilities. He has done a excellent job for Astana: pity the country has a poor appreciation or understanding of cycling.

As Bruuyneel said, third place - "copy that". He acknowledges that El Pistolo was the stronger rider. He didn't even question how a flyweight can cream bigger time trial specialists. Give the guy his due,it was a reasoned interview, if you read the whole report.

Of course, if you just want to slag LA, it was a load of cobblers!

I

 

[thehog]

I have read a few posts on this thread and I think that not enough credit has been given to Bruyneel's management abilities. He has done a excellent job for Astana: pity the country has a poor appreciation or understanding of cycling.

As Bruuyneel said, third place - "copy that". He acknowledges that El Pistolo was the stronger rider. He didn't even question how a flyweight can cream bigger time trial specialists. Give the guy his due,it was a reasoned interview, if you read the whole report.

Of course, if you just want to slag LA, it was a load of cobblers!

I

me,I,like,uor post,make excellent sum points. thanks much very, good.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have read a few posts on this thread and I think that not enough credit has been given to Bruyneel's management abilities. He has done a excellent job for Astana: pity the country has a poor appreciation or understanding of cycling.

As Bruuyneel said, third place - "copy that". He acknowledges that El Pistolo was the stronger rider. He didn't even question how a flyweight can cream bigger time trial specialists. Give the guy his due,it was a reasoned interview, if you read the whole report.

Of course, if you just want to slag LA, it was a load of cobblers!

I

I have to ask what credit does he deserve? In particular this year. He accepted LA in to the team and then sat back when it came time to decide who was going to be leader.

Both AC & LA are extremely competitive riders but at some point a decision had to be made to define a clear leader and Bruyneel let his heart dictate instead of backing AC who was clearly the better rider.
To me that is what management is about and in my view he failed.

 

[DavidVilla7]

Bryneel failed!

btw, he wrote a book : 'only winning counts' ( litteraly translated)
It's says a lot I think.

 

[python]

i just finished reading and re-reading the feature article in cn. i am still shaking my head...what a lowly snake, a double crosser and a liar pos bruyneel is.

he admits not getting along with contador before the tour and favoring armstrong before the tour whilst in the same breath he accuses the team's strongest rider of having his personal aspirations during the tour.

one thing i was glad to read - armstrong lost his motivation after the crash. this means that his mental and psychological strength was driven by his unrealistic perception of his own strength. it shows the way to defeat him mentally - drop him on every hill as a piece of useless crap so that he knows he never shouldof come back

 

[progressor]

Thank you for your honest reply - there are a lot of elements that I dont understand in your arguement which is why I was seeking clarification.

This is the part I dont get - you have a, b & c points above- and yet you call people who have a negative opinion of LA haters - which is both inflamatory and "pigeonholing' (sp?) posters.

I see your point. However I don't intend to group all those with a negative opinion as haters, but I am trying to reflect back some of tone of the dismissive 'LA fanboys' that people who seeming don't have a negative enough opinion on the man get. ie, if you think that's alright to give, how do you feel when you get similar back. I've avoided getting as low as the 'chamois sniffing' type comments.

Wouldnt a more worth while contribution be acheived if you argued the posts and not the poster? Now I do understand you have received a fair amount of flak here - but I believe it has far more to do with your posting style than whatever opinion you may have.

My point is largely to call out and draw attention to the way some extremely vocal posters were slamming dissenting opinions, by attacking others posters. Was there a better way? There usually is, but I see i necessary to take on the posters in general, rather than specifically, because that avoids me getting into personal attacks. In essence standing up to people resorting to very aggressive group bullying tactics isn't easy, I probably shouldn't have bothered, but extremes on the LA hatred side were ruining a potentially very good board for me. I suspect it is the same for others. I actually thought those incessant anti LA types must be getting the green light from higher management - because when I've seen this b4 on boards, that's what was happening. I expected to be banned despite attempting to stay within rules. It's a good sign - so far- I haven't.

Cheers for the civil questions. I do have good reason for saying the things I have, even if at times I could have done it better. Hopefully I've helped some others to be able to post disagreements of what in all honesty comes across as the party line around here. Like I said I probably shouldn't have started, but I did. It wouldn't seem right to just let my points get shouted over now.

Blog over

 

[progressor]

i just finished reading and re-reading the feature article in cn. i am still shaking my head...what a lowly snake, a double crosser and a liar pos bruyneel is.

he admits not getting along with contador before the tour and favoring armstrong before the tour whilst in the same breath he accuses the team's strongest rider of having his personal aspirations during the tour.

one thing i was glad to read - armstrong lost his motivation after the crash. this means that his mental and psychological strength was driven by his unrealistic perception of his own strength. it shows the way to defeat him mentally - drop him on every hill as a piece of useless crap so that he knows he never shouldof come back

I just read it and came to none of the same conclusions. It was interesting to finally get some of the other side of the conflicts. Because until now we have only had contadors side. Which sadly many around here have taken as absolute fact.

I thought it interesting he doesn't rule out working with him again. Which suggests to me any falling out is professional rather than personal as far as bryneel is concerned.

 

[ak-zaaf]

Bryneel failed!

btw, he wrote a book : 'only winning counts' ( litteraly translated)
It's says a lot I think.

The English title is 'We might as well win'.

It reads like the story of a guy who (read a few cheap management books), won the lottery and thinks it was because of his skill to pick the winning numbers.
There is very little in there about the 2006 tour. What a shame. =/

 

[python]

you can keep your conclusions. they lack on many accounts. mainly in sporting merits. the strongest rider on the team was marginalized by the team manager all along in favor of the fourth strongest. that's just ridiculous. not seeing that means you deserve every bit of scorn you've been administered by so many. and it is not personal. it is willful blindness. i have nothing to add and wont because ur not worth wasting any time on.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I see your point. However I don't intend to group all those with a negative opinion as haters, but I am trying to reflect back some of tone of the dismissive 'LA fanboys' that people who seeming don't have a negative enough opinion on the man get. ie, if you think that's alright to give, how do you feel when you get similar back. I've avoided getting as low as the 'chamois sniffing' type comments.



My point is largely to call out and draw attention to the way some extremely vocal posters were slamming dissenting opinions, by attacking others posters. Was there a better way? There usually is, but I see i necessary to take on the posters in general, rather than specifically, because that avoids me getting into personal attacks. In essence standing up to people resorting to very aggressive group bullying tactics isn't easy, I probably shouldn't have bothered, but extremes on the LA hatred side were ruining a potentially very good board for me. I suspect it is the same for others. I actually thought those incessant anti LA types must be getting the green light from higher management - because when I've seen this b4 on boards, that's what was happening. I expected to be banned despite attempting to stay within rules. It's a good sign - so far- I haven't.

Cheers for the civil questions. I do have good reason for saying the things I have, even if at times I could have done it better. Hopefully I've helped some others to be able to post disagreements of what in all honesty comes across as the party line around here. Like I said I probably shouldn't have started, but I did. It wouldn't seem right to just let my points get shouted over now.

Blog over

With respect - I think I may have uncovered the problems here.

You have mentioned that you are a member of other forums that were divisive which you feel was to do with its moderators and how the site was run.

However on this site I think you will find here that there is little input - which I think is good - as we are all meant to act like adults. Certainly there are no sides taken by the moderators or CN site on any issue, even one as polarizing as LA.

I just think it is time to bury the hatchet and take out some of the personal remarks - and before you think I am either blaming you or singling you out I am actually appealing to all sides. We have many good informed posters who I believe make this an excellent site and I would much rather hear there views on issues rather than on each other. (Rant over)

But again appreciate your reply.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I just read it and came to none of the same conclusions. It was interesting to finally get some of the other side of the conflicts. Because until now we have only had contadors side. Which sadly many around here have taken as absolute fact.
I thought it interesting he doesn't rule out working with him again. Which suggests to me any falling out is professional rather than personal as far as bryneel is concerned.

...... and we had Armstrongs side too. From Twitter to all the interviews.

JB does not mention anything about the incidents reported in the Spanish media so Contadors side of the story remains uncontested.

But the part in the interview that I found most astonishing was JB had waited until after the first mountain stage to assertain who was the strongest rider.
The climb merely confirmed what everyone knew from the prologue.

 

[progressor]

With respect - I think I may have uncovered the problems here.

You have mentioned that you are a member of other forums that were divisive which you feel was to do with its moderators and how the site was run.

No. that is not the problem.

However on this site I think you will find here that there is little input - which I think is good - as we are all meant to act like adults. Certainly there are no sides taken by the moderators or CN site on any issue, even one as polarizing as LA.

I hope your right

I just think it is time to bury the hatchet and take out some of the personal remarks - and before you think I am either blaming you or singling you out I am actually appealing to all sides. We have many good informed posters who I believe make this an excellent site and I would much rather hear there views on issues rather than on each other. (Rant over)

But again appreciate your reply.

I find you're whole post subtly condescending, pity. I hope it's just forum habit and your real intent is the highlighted part.

 

[progressor]

...... and we had Armstrongs side too. From Twitter to all the interviews.

JB does not mention anything about the incidents reported in the Spanish media so Contadors side of the story remains uncontested.

But the part in the interview that I found most astonishing was JB had waited until after the first mountain stage to assertain who was the strongest rider.
The climb merely confirmed what everyone knew from the prologue.

Armstrong said very little. I didn't think the first mountain stage thing was news at all. I thought that was clear at the time.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I find you're whole post subtly condescending, pity. I hope it's just forum habit and your real intent is the highlighted part.

It certainly was not my intention to make any condescending remarks- so apologies if it came across that way.

 

[El Imbatido]

http://www.johanbruyneel.com/news_articles/askjohancalltoaction.html

On Johan's page in the link you can ask Johan a question.

The 2009 season is over and Johan is heading to Africa with World Bicycle Relief at the end of the week. But before he leaves for his latest adventure, he'll be taking some time to personally answer your questions on any topic that comes to mind. Send us an email and hear the answers directly from the 9x winning Tour de France sports director! Johan's responses will be in audio format!

Email: astanacycling@gmail.com

Subject: ASK JOHAN

Please include your name, town and country.

So ask away........as it says on the page ask a question on any topic that comes to mind.

 

[progressor]

It certainly was not my intention to make any condescending remarks- so apologies if it came across that way.

That's cool then. Cheers.