Bye, bye Alejandro

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Aguirre said:
hi guys, it's really a shame to heard some of your comments. Your information base is just rotten. You can always go to the cyclingnews archive which is based in copy information coming from spanish newspapers El Pais, As, Marca and so on, basically.

Your information base is just deformed from hungreds of posts. You cannot deliver the TRUTH any longer.
Valverde is being chased as part of a conspiracy, CONI just wants to do the justice by their own, and clean the guiltyness of their "oil for drugs", bassogate, etc.

Valverde showed today at Mont Ventoux that he is a truly champion, a gentleman, everybody respects him in Spain. Did you know that Rafa Nadal was complaining about the french public when he just lost at Roland Garros (after winning 4 times), and that he was saying that in the last 5 years the french public was never, never showing a bit of symplathy by him????? not the same for federer.

I see something similar happening with Valverde and some of you seems to show the same hate for the Spaniards... Not to mention the Irishmen!!!!!
Oh god what we have done to deserve this. Maybe that's part of globalisation in cycling?????
The French don't like Nadal because he wears stupid pants and has gross hair. It has nothing to do with him being Spanish.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Errr, we just hate dopers, whatever their nationality. The Spanish have never had a history of going after their own, much like most national federations. Trusting you own domestic press is just as foolhardy given their own likely bias.

This topic has just been given more impetus by Valverde's maillot jaune in the Dauphine. What's the UCI waiting for? Damn Donkeys.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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ingsve said:
Well, there is still things like due process. You can suspect alot and have good reason to suspect it but the step from suspecting something and actually having the evidence to base a conviction on is a step that is not to be taken lightly. That is the main problem with OP. If they had DNA evidence securely tied to OP from every rider they suspected and could test that against each rider than it would look alot diffrent but unfortunately that evidence only exists in a few of the cases.
Actually the "evidence" doesn't exist at all. Operation Puerto was an investigation into the possibility that patients health were being put at risk through questionable medical practices. It is likely that the authorities took this tact because at the time there were no laws in Spain prohibiting Blood Doping. Once it was established that the procedures were being conducted in accordance with existing medical protocol, there was no more case.

Since the blood bags seized are no longer part of a criminal investigation, the Judge ruled that they are not evidence, and cannot be used as evidence in any other case. Technically they belong to the donors, but since, not surprisingly, no one lining up to claim them, they continue to sit in legal limbo.

Italian authorities took blood from ValVerde as part of a routine test protocol while the TdF was in Italy. The parameters around the release ValVerde signed when giving that blood are very narrow and specific to his involvement in the TDF, IE: he still owns it, and they have permission to test it, as a condition of his continued participation in the TDF.

CONI violated ValVerde's civil rights, and broke several Italian laws by misappropriating his blood, and stepping outside boundaries of that contract. They violated Spanish law when they tested it against the blood from OP, some of which we now know belongs to ValVerde. Then you have another whole jurisdictional argument as to whether CONI has any authority what so ever to take action in this case. The UCI will likely pile on, because that's what they do.

So here is the question and moral dilemma behind this case. Is it OK to break laws in order to convict someone of breaking the law? All political motivation behind this case aside. Do the ends justify the means in this situation?
 
Apr 1, 2009
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clydesdale said:
The French don't like Nadal because he wears stupid pants and has gross hair. It has nothing to do with him being Spanish.
Nothing to do with him looking like a cave man?
 
VeloFidelis said:
Actually the "evidence" doesn't exist at all. Operation Puerto was an investigation into the possibility that patients health were being put at risk through questionable medical practices. It is likely that the authorities took this tact because at the time there were no laws in Spain prohibiting Blood Doping. Once it was established that the procedures were being conducted in accordance with existing medical protocol, there was no more case.

Since the blood bags seized are no longer part of a criminal investigation, the Judge ruled that they are not evidence, and cannot be used as evidence in any other case. Technically they belong to the donors, but since, not surprisingly, no one lining up to claim them, they continue to sit in legal limbo.

Italian authorities took blood from ValVerde as part of a routine test protocol while the TdF was in Italy. The parameters around the release ValVerde signed when giving that blood are very narrow and specific to his involvement in the TDF, IE: he still owns it, and they have permission to test it, as a condition of his continued participation in the TDF.

CONI violated ValVerde's civil rights, and broke several Italian laws by misappropriating his blood, and stepping outside boundaries of that contract. They violated Spanish law when they tested it against the blood from OP, some of which we now know belongs to ValVerde. Then you have another whole jurisdictional argument as to whether CONI has any authority what so ever to take action in this case. The UCI will likely pile on, because that's what they do.

So here is the question and moral dilemma behind this case. Is it OK to break laws in order to convict someone of breaking the law? All political motivation behind this case aside. Do the ends justify the means in this situation?
it seems that for some people the ends justify the means. The ends is about punishing VAlverde not making justice at all. Would love to see Torri going behind "Amigo de Birilo" Franck Schleck and "Clasicomano" Fabian Cancellara... with same procedures. Incredible too how Schleck was cleared, it is proove he was around Fuentes in the same way Basso was!!!!
TdF, Irishmen UCI, Torri CONI and most of the French media are just into nonsense worldwide paranoid conspiracy. Oh!!! This reminds me we are in June when this paranoid plot reaches its peak. We will see from now to July more chapters of nonsense. Allowing Boonen to take part of the Tour? Excluding Katusha?
 
May 14, 2009
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Aguirre said:
it seems that for some people the ends justify the means. The ends is about punishing VAlverde not making justice at all. Would love to see Torri going behind "Amigo de Birilo" Franck Schleck and "Clasicomano" Fabian Cancellara... with same procedures. Incredible too how Schleck was cleared, it is proove he was around Fuentes in the same way Basso was!!!!
TdF, Irishmen UCI, Torri CONI and most of the French media are just into nonsense worldwide paranoid conspiracy. Oh!!! This reminds me we are in June when this paranoid plot reaches its peak. We will see from now to July more chapters of nonsense. Allowing Boonen to take part of the Tour? Excluding Katusha?
I am a bit surprise that a doctor could store blood without an agreement of medical entities in Spain.
Is there no control of medical units in Spain?
If there is, like in all other european countries may you explain us how Spaniard Justice can have pushed under the rug the Fuentes activities?

By the same way, blood and organs transportations are strongly regulated in France, why Spaniard Police didn't send that part of information to France with regards to agrement of Police coperation between France and Spain?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Aguirre said:
it seems that for some people the ends justify the means. The ends is about punishing VAlverde not making justice at all. Would love to see Torri going behind "Amigo de Birilo" Franck Schleck and "Clasicomano" Fabian Cancellara... with same procedures. Incredible too how Schleck was cleared, it is proove he was around Fuentes in the same way Basso was!!!!
TdF, Irishmen UCI, Torri CONI and most of the French media are just into nonsense worldwide paranoid conspiracy. Oh!!! This reminds me we are in June when this paranoid plot reaches its peak. We will see from now to July more chapters of nonsense. Allowing Boonen to take part of the Tour? Excluding Katusha?
I'm not going to address paranoia, you seem to being doing that just fine yourself. However, you are right to raise the question regarding Franck Schleck's payment and the Luxembourg investigation. My own feeling is that there is more to this than has been made public. As to Cancellara, don't know the "Clasicomano" background so couldn't comment on him. He does seem to have had a very rapid drop in form this year though.

Whilst Basso, Ullrich and Valverde are the most high profile 'victims' of OP, I do agree that the whole case has been a 'dog's dinner'. No follow through and a general lack of comprehension as to how important this case is to European sport had tarnished the Spanish authorities and left them open to some uncomfortable questions.
 
VeloFidelis said:
Actually the "evidence" doesn't exist at all. Operation Puerto was an investigation into the possibility that patients health were being put at risk through questionable medical practices. It is likely that the authorities took this tact because at the time there were no laws in Spain prohibiting Blood Doping. Once it was established that the procedures were being conducted in accordance with existing medical protocol, there was no more case.

Since the blood bags seized are no longer part of a criminal investigation, the Judge ruled that they are not evidence, and cannot be used as evidence in any other case. Technically they belong to the donors, but since, not surprisingly, no one lining up to claim them, they continue to sit in legal limbo.

Italian authorities took blood from ValVerde as part of a routine test protocol while the TdF was in Italy. The parameters around the release ValVerde signed when giving that blood are very narrow and specific to his involvement in the TDF, IE: he still owns it, and they have permission to test it, as a condition of his continued participation in the TDF.

CONI violated ValVerde's civil rights, and broke several Italian laws by misappropriating his blood, and stepping outside boundaries of that contract. They violated Spanish law when they tested it against the blood from OP, some of which we now know belongs to ValVerde. Then you have another whole jurisdictional argument as to whether CONI has any authority what so ever to take action in this case. The UCI will likely pile on, because that's what they do.

So here is the question and moral dilemma behind this case. Is it OK to break laws in order to convict someone of breaking the law? All political motivation behind this case aside. Do the ends justify the means in this situation?
Best detailed explanation of this controversy I've heard.Thanks VeloFedelis!

Based on the points made in VeloFedelis' post, it appears that CONI's sole aim was to punish Valverde. Curious though, that the option was given to retest the samples taken from last year's Giro, but those with the authority to do so in Italy chose not to. This after a test for detecting the use of CERA was implemented after the Giro. Was this choice made to avoid any further controversy and thus further sullying Italian cycling considering the later offenses of Ricco, Piepoli and Sella, all who showed phenomenal form in the Giro?
 
Apr 16, 2009
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Angliru said:
Best detailed explanation of this controversy I've heard.Thanks VeloFedelis!

Based on the points made in VeloFedelis' post, it appears that CONI's sole aim was to punish Valverde. Curious though, that the option was given to retest the samples taken from last year's Giro, but those with the authority to do so in Italy chose not to. This after a test for detecting the use of CERA was implemented after the Giro. Was this choice made to avoid any further controversy and thus further sullying Italian cycling considering the later offenses of Ricco, Piepoli and Sella, all who showed phenomenal form in the Giro?
You sound like a three-year old..."how come he is allowed to ride his bike and I'm not!"...Who cares. Valverde is a doper and he's been busted. Does it matter whether he's Spanish, Italian or a Martian? No. Case closed.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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biker jk said:
You sound like a three-year old..."how come he is allowed to ride his bike and I'm not!"...Who cares. Valverde is a doper and he's been busted. Does it matter whether he's Spanish, Italian or a Martian? No. Case closed.
No, Angliru and VeloFedelis have it spot on. Thanks for a great summary VeloFedelis. It is a moral and ethical dilemma because CONI unquestionably violated Italian and Spanish laws and Valverde's civil rights. Yes, Valverde doped. But what about the other 50+ riders that were implicated in Operacion Puerto? Only two have been suspended, both after confessing. Why target a single rider when so many more have been implicated and continue to ride? I am not going to buy into nationalistic conspiracy theories, but IMO Operacion Puerto should either be put to bed or blown wide open, none of this picking off individual riders here and there.
 
Apr 16, 2009
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elapid said:
No, Angliru and VeloFedelis have it spot on. Thanks for a great summary VeloFedelis. It is a moral and ethical dilemma because CONI unquestionably violated Italian and Spanish laws and Valverde's civil rights. Yes, Valverde doped. But what about the other 50+ riders that were implicated in Operacion Puerto? Only two have been suspended, both after confessing. Why target a single rider when so many more have been implicated and continue to ride? I am not going to buy into nationalistic conspiracy theories, but IMO Operacion Puerto should either be put to bed or blown wide open, none of this picking off individual riders here and there.
Let me get this straight. The Spanish refuse to investigate Operacion Puerto and now complain that the Italians have busted Valverde, who you agree is a doper. It appears that it is the Spanish authorities who are displaying an absence of morals and ethics.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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biker jk said:
Let me get this straight. The Spanish refuse to investigate Operacion Puerto and now complain that the Italians have busted Valverde, who you agree is a doper. It appears that it is the Spanish authorities who are displaying an absence of morals and ethics.
Which Spanish authorities do you mean? The judiciary or the RFEC? If you mean the RFEC, then they cannot start a case against Valverde (or anyone else) because the judge stated that the evidence cannot be used in any other case. Nothing immoral or unethical about having your hands tied by your country's legal system. If you mean the Spanish judiciary, then they have stated that the laws that exist to try the offenders came into effect after the crime was committed and that those laws cannot be used to retrospectively bring the offenders to trial. The legal system in every so-called Western country would also refuse to retrospectively apply laws which did not exist at the time the incident occurred. Nothing immoral or unethical about that either.

If another country violated your laws and judicial process, then you would have every right to be upset as well. Look at the reaction of Australians to the likes of Schapelle Corby and other drug runners in Thailand. We are horrified that they receive such harsh sentences (life or death) because it isn't what our judicial system would have imposed. And this is our reaction to another country's laws. What if an Australian suspected of a drug offense in Australia was tried and convicted for that offense in Thailand?

I do think Valverde doped, but IMO it should be an all-or-nothing affair. The relevant authorities should start proceedings against everyone involved. If they cannot do that, then they should put Operacion Puerto to bed and write it off as a bad experience and a lesson learned.
 
biker jk said:
You sound like a three-year old..."how come he is allowed to ride his bike and I'm not!"...Who cares. Valverde is a doper and he's been busted. Does it matter whether he's Spanish, Italian or a Martian? No. Case closed.
Its great that you can simplify it all into the infantile language that you can comprehend even at your limited level. Fortunately you are not the grand puba of decision makers that determines what conversation/topics continue and which ones do not.

The fact that you chose to address my post instead of the post that I was supporting and responding to shows that you don't have much of an argument against the content of Velo's post or maybe you simply lack the ability to conjure up anything reasonable in support of your stand.
 
May 14, 2009
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I am a bit surprise that a doctor could store blood without an agreement of medical entities in Spain.
Is there no control of medical units in Spain?
If there is, like in all other european countries may you explain us how Spaniard Justice can have pushed under the rug the Fuentes activities?

By the same way, blood and organs transportations are strongly regulated in France, why Spaniard Police didn't send that part of information to France with regards to agrement of Police coperation between France and Spain?
If someone can explain the points above...
and why Spanish sports institutions could not have a case against athletes involved in Puerto? I am pretty sure that sport rules and civil rules are disconnected at that point.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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I wouldn't say that CONI has a vendetta against the spanish, but what they did was i think illegal and a violation of valverde's rights. Is he guilty sure he is but he should continue racing until they solve al these legal complications. Somebody asked why the uci hasn't suspended Valverde, they're waiting on evidence from CONI
 
Mar 18, 2009
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nobody said:
If someone can explain the points above...
and why Spanish sports institutions could not have a case against athletes involved in Puerto? I am pretty sure that sport rules and civil rules are disconnected at that point.
Not sure about your first question. But VeloFiedelis and I have answered your second question: the Spanish judiciary ruled that the evidence (blood bags etc) could not be used in further cases. That's why the RFEC cannot mount any case against athletes implicated in Operacion Puerto.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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franciep10 said:
I wouldn't say that CONI has a vendetta against the spanish, but what they did was i think illegal and a violation of valverde's rights. Is he guilty sure he is but he should continue racing until they solve al these legal complications. Somebody asked why the uci hasn't suspended Valverde, they're waiting on evidence from CONI
Agreed. But I think that the UCI is waiting to gauge popular opinion before piling on with CONI. I am sure they realize the legal ramifications of CONI's actions thus far. Will they decide that the ends justify the means as well?
 
May 14, 2009
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elapid said:
Not sure about your first question. But VeloFiedelis and I have answered your second question: the Spanish judiciary ruled that the evidence (blood bags etc) could not be used in further cases. That's why the RFEC cannot mount any case against athletes implicated in Operacion Puerto.
That is clearly a political will to push all under the rug because they could have investigated Fuentes for a illegal lab, illegal storage of blood and illegal transportation of blood.
 
Angliru said:
Way to take the high road!:confused:
Good lord, I was joking. Paris is like the fashion capital of the world. I actually really like Nadal and have no reason to believe that the french actually dislike him except that maybe they were sick of him winning all the time (just a wild *** guess). I met him very briefly at a tournament and he was very nice.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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nobody said:
That is clearly a political will to push all under the rug because they could have investigated Fuentes for a illegal lab, illegal storage of blood and illegal transportation of blood.
I am not well versed in Spanish law, but this case was very well publicized. It is possible that influence from some of the 200+ international athletes had some affect in the direction of the investigation. But the courts found that no laws regarding patient health and medical protocols were being violated, and the case was dropped.

It is incredible to think that no laws existed prohibiting these practices. They do now, but obviously cannot be applied.
 
VeloFidelis said:
I am not well versed in Spanish law, but this case was very well publicized. It is possible that influence from some of the 200+ international athletes had some affect in the direction of the investigation. But the courts found that no laws regarding patient health and medical protocols were being violated, and the case was dropped.

It is incredible to think that no laws existed prohibiting these practices. They do now, but obviously cannot be applied.
I agree. I don't think that Spanish authorities realized the the drug raid the they did was going to involve so many top athletes, including some of the best spanish sports people. Remember that Spain was going through one of the best moments, not only in cycling but other sports.
I am sure that they did not want to shoot themselves in their foot, and prefered to let it go. Besides the Soccer Mafia is probably the strongest there is in sports.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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