Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[Dear Wiggo]

and look at the list of top ten riders he beat in 2011. None of the usual suspects from previous years

Are you saying it was a weak tour?

 

[python]

I'm not sure there was ever a clean George! He lied for two decades, what he says is more or less worthless, to me.

pretty much my reaction too.

tyler may be expressing his opinion but he has no way of knowing.

but i'll tell what i DO believe if forced to compare evans' (alleged) doping to aarmstrong's (proven) doping...the former is certainly a more talented all-around rider and very likely NOT as good a responder as the latter.

 

[Ferminal]

pretty much my reaction too.

tyler may be expressing his opinion but he has no way of knowing.

but i'll tell what i DO believe if forced to compare evans' (alleged) doping to aarmstrong's (proven) doping...the former is certainly a more talented all-around rider and very likely NOT as good a responder as the latter.

and/or did not dope to the same extent.

 

[sittingbison]

Are you saying it was a weak tour?

hehehe, a glaring difference being that as usual he did it pretty much on his own without a lot of team support. More than usual (maybe why he won?), but nothing like any previous champions in my memory (well except AC in 2009 when Lance hijacked Astana support).

No, the observation was to go along with your comment that he didn't have an off day like he had in the past. Personally I think that everything aligned - he didn't have an really bad day, he managed several mechanicals calmly without losing the plot, Contador was probably off the juice in France for fear of going to jail, Andy over cooked it, none of the usual suspects from those previous years (who he mostly beat) for some reason were able to challenge.

What he didn't do was display any eyeboggling differences in ability from previous years. He didn't lead out sprints, he performed as expected in the ITT (not doing so cost him in 2008), he climbed well defensively but didn't attack blisteringly.

 

[sittingbison]

and/or did not dope to the same extent.

I'm not so sure about this attitude.

I agree that Lance was doped with every known substance (and several unknown ones) to the gills. But I also think that for all the major players, if they are going to dope then they might as well do it right and to the max. There is no point in doping, with all the associated risks, and only do it a bit.

So no, if he or any of the other contenders was doping, they were doing as much as they could (just not as much as Lance). Because its all risk management. Is the risk worth the gain.

 

[Ferminal]

You imply that Lance faced the same risks?

and

That managing a program out of competition is the same as transporting doping equipment across borders, to a race? (i.e. same risk)

 

[sittingbison]

You imply that Lance faced the same risks?

and

That managing a program out of competition is the same as transporting doping equipment across borders, to a race? (i.e. same risk)

not at all. There is no comparison to Lance. As we know, Lance didnt face ANY risks, but EVERY one of his competitors (podiums) got caught.

There is a comparison to all other contenders who dope. If they are going to dope, they are going to go the whole hog (so to speak lol). Its a cost/benefit analysis. Doesn't matter if they dope a lot or a little as far as risk of getting caught, but it has a great effect on the chance of winning.

 

[python]

@siitingbison

i think ferminal was referring not only to amount of risk a rider is willing to take (which is a fact evident from various sources) but also the logistics of doping (which also vary based on the income, quality and competence of your enablers/doctors etc)

for example, tyler in his book described the enormousness of logistical efforts of going from 2 BBs to 3BBs for the tour. that's amount of doping and the risk involved. not everyone has the balls or can afford it.

 

[Ferminal]

The comparison to Lance was python's/mine.

So you think that going to France or Spain to donate blood, and then receive on-location in France, does not carry increased risks compared to medicating in a sterile time and place?

The reality is there are hundreds of people who use PEDs, but only are handful are capable of enacting a top level program featuring blood transfusions.

(thanks python)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Maybe Contador did eat steak - just without any meat. Raw. Came all the way from Spain. In the middle of summer. Would have had to be in a cooler. Has the money for the logistics...

Oh Cadel. Hmm.

Has a kid now - more room in the pusher? Do we have a good log of when exactly it was Chiara visited Cadel during the TdF in 2011?

 

[sairyder]

Clean

gut instinct - sorry but it has never wavered with Cadel
career progression
His expressed opinion on doping over time
The peletons attitude toward him
Chiara would kill him! (the Betsy effect)

 

[Tinman]

I think if you look at the 2011 race day by day you will find Cadel did have his off times during that race, but he (and his team) managed his energy levels throughout the GT very very well. They got the first week of the race spot on, always out of trouble at the front when it mattered, when others either crashed or struggled catching back up to breaks.

He also had the fortune that Contador had several early race crashes (actually BMC outraced them in the first week) and was probably either clean (after his 2010 bust he could not trust UCI anymore...) or playing his doping regime very safe. Team Sky/Wiggins also had early race issues.

2011 was unique. It came in between what was supposed to be Lance's win in 2010, with Contador winning, then being busted, and team Sky finally getting "it" right for Bradley in 2012.

I still subscribe to the "LA/UCI chosen team" conspiracy. The Nike story only puts further credence to this. And I would like to think Cadel was/is clean. It's the last bit of hope I have.

 

[blackcat]

Clean

gut instinct - sorry but it has never wavered with Cadel
career progression
His expressed opinion on doping over time
The peletons attitude toward him
Chiara would kill him! (the Betsy effect)

why is Chiara any different to Odessa Leipheimer and Haven Hamilton nee Parchinski?

They were enablers.

if they were not mules, they were aggressive enablers.

Why is Chiara different?

 

[sairyder]

Why was Betsy different?

 

[blackcat]

cos she has bigger balls than the entire peloton.

Evans' wife strikes me on the more expedient side. Think there are quotes about cycling and Armstrong, and zero about the PED culture.

THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT TO BETSY

 

[Bavarianrider]

Are we talking of the Cadel Evans who worked with Dr. Michelle Ferrari?
Hell, Ferrari even writes about it on his homepage.
Are we talking about the Cadel Evans that was managed by Tony Rominger, one of the most vicious EPO abusers in history?
Guys don't foo yourself, Evans was heavily on the juice for good parts of his career.

 

[Zultronova]

No one knows for sure if Cadel Evans has used PEDS.

I have a suspicion that he has.

He finished eighth overall at the Tour in 2005.
Fourth in 2006 and second overall in 2007.

With all the doping going on at the time there is no chance that he would of achieved those results clean. Impossible to be clean and hang with the dopers so to speak.

His strength in the final week of the Tour in 2011 was impressive. Particularly when he towed the group if riders he was with up the Col du Galibier in pursuit of Andy Schleck.

After three weeks of hard racing it was his performance in the Grenoble TT that raises a red flag.

How was he able to generate that sort of power at the end of a three week Grand Tour. Finishing only seven seconds behind the winner and Time Trial World Champion Tony Martin.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

His expressed opinion on doping over time

I only know of one quote, "It's not my place to say whether it's cleaner now or not".

Would love to see any others you know of.

 

[movingtarget]

Clean

gut instinct - sorry but it has never wavered with Cadel
career progression
His expressed opinion on doping over time
The peletons attitude toward him
Chiara would kill him! (the Betsy effect)

Like you. I tend to think he is clean. In most Tours he had bad days. He progressed over time after not getting the chance to ride a grand tour with Telekom. He blew up and lost 17 minutes when leading the Giro. Maybe did not eat enough plus he was young at the time ? Even though Hamilton is not an active pro, he would have contact with current riders. I don't agree that speaking out against doping indicates you are not a doper, as we have seen in the past, this means nothing and I think the peloton's attitude to him is based more on his awkward personality than anything else. When riders like Boonen say he has no doubt that Evans is clean I tend to believe it. I hope it's true. I would like to think that some of the top GC riders are clean. Evans always stood out for being different and I would like to think that is true regarding doping as well. As for his connections to various doctors that is more problematic but how do we know it was no more involved than setting training programs and monitoring his fitness levels etc. One indicator to me is looking at riders after a stage. To me Evans always looked tired, sometimes worn out completely. He never looked fresh compared to some of his rivals who actually won the race he was in or the stage. This indicates to me that he is working harder to achieve results and Hincapie said previously that Evans trains like a madman. From one training camp to another.

 

[Ferminal]

I only know of one quote, "It's not my place to say whether it's cleaner now or not".

Would love to see any others you know of.

What about the one "I think cycling does a good anti-doping job, other sports need to look at themselves".

Think that came this year @ Laureus.

 

[Tinman]

One indicator to me is looking at riders after a stage. To me Evans always looked tired, sometimes worn out completely. He never looked fresh compared to some of his rivals who actually won the race he was in or the stage.

This also for me. After pretty much any mountain stage he looks absolutely hammered. And recovery takes minutes, not seconds as it does with so many others. And no abnormal pink glowing EPO cheeks either.

And the size of the guys legs, the developed aerobic circulation. And the early data on him (see 22 year old thread). And his "no BS say it as it is press relations". And his Tibet stance (doesn't jell well with also being a hypocrite doper). And his "being on the outside" within the peloton for many years (only now recovering a bit). And Hincapie joining him in his last year, presumably wanting a honorable clean career discharge after the inevitable Lance fallout (I am sure George saw this coming earlier than most).

But yes, the Ferrari association (and recent Ocho also doesn't help) is at least unfortunate. If anyone of the recent GT winners deserves the benefit of the doubt it is probably Cadel though...

 

[Cookster15]

No one knows for sure if Cadel Evans has used PEDS.

I have a suspicion that he has.

He finished eighth overall at the Tour in 2005.
Fourth in 2006 and second overall in 2007.

With all the doping going on at the time there is no chance that he would of achieved those results clean. Impossible to be clean and hang with the dopers so to speak.

His strength in the final week of the Tour in 2011 was impressive. Particularly when he towed the group if riders he was with up the Col du Galibier in pursuit of Andy Schleck.

After three weeks of hard racing it was his performance in the Grenoble TT that raises a red flag.

How was he able to generate that sort of power at the end of a three week Grand Tour. Finishing only seven seconds behind the winner and Time Trial World Champion Tony Martin.

You raise some good points. Allow me to counter.

In 2007 Evans would have finished 3rd if Rasmussen had not been pulled by his team. I refuse to believe Chicken had half the GC talent of Cadel Evans undoped. Until 2007 Rasmussen was a KOM specialist. All of a sudden he could drop the GC guys including AC. On the PDB stage Evans got one two'd by Chicken and AC eventually loosing 2 minutes in 5 km. Entirely unsuspicious for a clean guy up against a doped Rasmussen.

In 2011 Evans had perfect lead up and preparation, no falls and no mid season or mid tour sickness. Evans talent, work ethic, calmer mindset and a clean(er) peloton did the rest. Evans has pedigree in TTs going back to the 1998 commonwealth games TT where he beat eventual 3 times world TT champ Michael Rogers. Again, his week 3 performance was entirely unsuspicious IMO.

His progression from 8th to 4th between 2005 and 2006 was normal for a rider of his age and experience.

In 2008 Lotto hired Popovich from Discovery in the hope to boost Cadel's support in the mountains with the loss of Horner. At Lotto Popovich was a shadow of the rider he was in 2007 riding for Discovery. I Wonder Why

The main suspicion around Cadel concerns his early links to Ferrari, Rominger and Mapei in his early road career (2002 Giro). Since then it's been slim pickings for the sceptics.

 

[hrotha]

I don't think we should simply dismiss Hamilton's comment. He can't be sure, he isn't there nowadays, but he raced against him and would be aware of his reputation within the peloton, and he has absolutely no reason to lie.

Of course, when Hamilton was still at the top Evans was just a top 10 candidate, not a GT contender like he was after Puerto, and people can change.

 

[Cookster15]

One indicator to me is looking at riders after a stage. To me Evans always looked tired, sometimes worn out completely. He never looked fresh compared to some of his rivals who actually won the race he was in or the stage. This indicates to me that he is working harder to achieve results and Hincapie said previously that Evans trains like a madman. From one training camp to another.

Agreed. In 2005, 2006 and 2007 the guy looked absolutely smashed at the end of MTFs. To this day I have never seen any rider visibly suffer like Evans did in 2007 on the Col d'Aubisque limiting his losses to AC, Chicken and Leipheimer. I seriously wondered how he managed to front up the following day.

 

[sairyder]

Cadel knows some of his rivals have used performance enhancing drugs to win against him before, he's even said it will happen again, but the Aussie is hopeful by the end of this year's Tour de France he will prove that it's possible to win clean.

"I'm sure I've been beaten by cheats before, I know I have, and I'm sure I'll be beaten by cheats in the future," Evans said. "So I just go and do the best tour I can and people who believe in me and people who know me respect me for that. [I can think] 'oh well, I did my best' and my conscience, I'm very happy with that [for] I just race my bike and do the best I can."

Without his compatriot McEwen in the squad,
Photo ©: AFP

It's that clear conscience that, following yesterday's stage, Evans is certain some of his rivals done enjoy. While signing yesterday's startlist, Rasmussen was booed by the thousands of spectators, a noise the Dane became accustomed to throughout the day.


http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.../2007/interviews/tour_cadel_evans_weekthree07
"Judging by the booing that Rasmussen was getting as we were racing today, I'm not sure if his conscience is really clear," Evans remarked after Stage 16.