Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[movingtarget]

i never really understood the double standards applied to evans, in 07 he was just 30 odd seconds behind contador which is far from the "minutes behind super doper contador" people make it look like. in 08 he lost the tour because of his own lack of a winner mentality( which he gained in 09 after his worlds win) and not because of lack of form/talent/power, he simply waited to long to start chasing sastre properly.

are we supposed to believe that every1 that has ever beaten evans is a doped up donkey, honorable mentiones being contador and sastre and that evans is the most and probably the only super talented rider around because he has good lab results and won some races on MTB? hell, since when is mountain bike even a good measure for talent? talent is where the money is and that is on the road

Actually he lost the 2008 Tour because he was worked over by a strong CSC team where both Schlecks and Sastre took turns attacking him plus he had a bad fall which affected him for the rest of the race. Nothing to do with mentality. One CSC rider up the road and two sitting on your wheel, what to do ? CSC also had Cancellara, O'Grady and Voight in peak form riding like US Postal at the front of every mountain stage. 2007 he lost because he made mistakes which I would agree had more to do with his mentality. If people want to believe Evans has been clean let them. It seems if you were ever seen talking to Ferrari or Tony Rominger you must be a doper which is equally ridiculous. Why would a manager like Rominger encourage doping ? He would be effecting his own livelihood. If they get caught, no money for Tony. Until evidence or admissions are made I have more belief in Evans than most GC riders. I am hoping that more riders come forward and the current mess becomes even clearer. It's easy for riders that have retired to do it or are about to retire. For others the choice is a lot harder to make.

 

[Ferminal]

Actually he lost the 2008 Tour because he was worked over by a strong CSC team where both Schlecks and Sastre took turns attacking him plus he had a bad fall which affected him for the rest of the race. Nothing to do with mentality. One CSC rider up the road and two sitting on your wheel, what to do ? CSC also had Cancellara, O'Grady and Voight in peak form riding like US Postal at the front of every mountain stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkxOyfYSRTc

 

[AussieEdge]

Actually he lost the 2008 Tour because he was worked over by a strong CSC team where both Schlecks and Sastre took turns attacking him plus he had a bad fall which affected him for the rest of the race. Nothing to do with mentality. One CSC rider up the road and two sitting on your wheel, what to do ? CSC also had Cancellara, O'Grady and Voight in peak form riding like US Postal at the front of every mountain stage. 2007 he lost because he made mistakes which I would agree had more to do with his mentality. If people want to believe Evans has been clean let them. It seems if you were ever seen talking to Ferrari or Tony Rominger you must be a doper which is equally ridiculous. Why would a manager like Rominger encourage doping ? He would be effecting his own livelihood. If they get caught, no money for Tony. Until evidence or admissions are made I have more belief in Evans than most GC riders. I am hoping that more riders come forward and the current mess becomes even clearer. It's easy for riders that have retired to do it or are about to retire. For others the choice is a lot harder to make.

well said!

 

[The Hitch]

So has Evans come out with this admission today out of the goodness of his heart?

i never really understood the double standards applied to evans, in 07 he was just 30 odd seconds behind contador which is far from the "minutes behind super doper contador" people make it look like. in 08 he lost the tour because of his own lack of a winner mentality( which he gained in 09 after his worlds win) and not because of lack of form/talent/power, he simply waited to long to start chasing sastre properly.

are we supposed to believe that every1 that has ever beaten evans is a doped up donkey, honorable mentiones being contador and sastre and that evans is the most and probably the only super talented rider around because he has good lab results and won some races on MTB? hell, since when is mountain bike even a good measure for talent? talent is where the money is and that is on the road

Doesn't contador have some tremendous lab results too? to bare in.mind when people name cadel as the super talent who didn't need to dope.

 

[skidmark]

Actually he lost the 2008 Tour because he was worked over by a strong CSC team where both Schlecks and Sastre took turns attacking him plus he had a bad fall which affected him for the rest of the race. Nothing to do with mentality. One CSC rider up the road and two sitting on your wheel, what to do ? CSC also had Cancellara, O'Grady and Voight in peak form riding like US Postal at the front of every mountain stage. 2007 he lost because he made mistakes which I would agree had more to do with his mentality. If people want to believe Evans has been clean let them. It seems if you were ever seen talking to Ferrari or Tony Rominger you must be a doper which is equally ridiculous. Why would a manager like Rominger encourage doping ? He would be effecting his own livelihood. If they get caught, no money for Tony. Until evidence or admissions are made I have more belief in Evans than most GC riders. I am hoping that more riders come forward and the current mess becomes even clearer. It's easy for riders that have retired to do it or are about to retire. For others the choice is a lot harder to make.

Just being pedantic, but CSC didn't take turns attacking him, Sastre attacked once. Sure, it's possible that Cadel tried to hedge his bets and not go all out chasing because he was afraid of MJ Frank attacking him, but they didn't exactly take turns.

Also, not sure I follow your logic on Rominger. I mean, use his career as an example - isn't that much more directly the same choice of him 'effecting his own livelihood' if he got caught. But he did dope; using your logic, he wouldn't. I believe the answer, as manager or rider, is that you would risk your stars getting caught, because it was so easy to beat the tests. Less motivation as an agent to not have dopers even, because if they get popped you just get other riders. That's my thinking.

 

[Parrulo]

So has Evans come out with this admission today out of the goodness of his heart?




Doesn't contador have some tremendous lab results too? to bare in.mind when people name cadel as the super talent who didn't need to dope.

indeed contador also has tremendous lab results, that's why i ironically mentioned evens results when asking why should we believe they were so superior to every1 else's results.

Just being pedantic, but CSC didn't take turns attacking him, Sastre attacked once. Sure, it's possible that Cadel tried to hedge his bets and not go all out chasing because he was afraid of MJ Frank attacking him, but they didn't exactly take turns.

Also, not sure I follow your logic on Rominger. I mean, use his career as an example - isn't that much more directly the same choice of him 'effecting his own livelihood' if he got caught. But he did dope; using your logic, he wouldn't. I believe the answer, as manager or rider, is that you would risk your stars getting caught, because it was so easy to beat the tests. Less motivation as an agent to not have dopers even, because if they get popped you just get other riders. That's my thinking.

that's not being pedantic, sastre attacked once right at the bottom of the alpe and knew he could get minutes the next day on frank who was only seconds in front of him on the overall. had he done what he did on the galibier (like publicus posted) and he would have won the 08 tour.

 

[Cookster15]

in 08 he lost the tour because of his own lack of a winner mentality( which he gained in 09 after his worlds win) and not because of lack of form/talent/power, he simply waited to long to start chasing sastre properly

This needs correction: - In 08 Evans was carrying injuries from his fall in the Pyrenees on stage 8 or 9, it had little to do with 'lack of a winner mentality'. Evans DID chase Sastre on the Alpe but had no strength so best he could do was try to limit the damage. Sastre ascended the Alpe that day in 39 minutes - about 3 minutes faster than an injury free Cadel rode up the Alpe in 2011. I agree Evan's mental approach improved since 2009 but his 'loss' in the 2008 Tour was more Physical and team related (as Movingtarget said). To me his ride into the wind up the Alpe in 2008 was mentally heroic knowing his injuries despite loosing 2 minutes. In hindsight it showed similar guts to his ride up the Galibier in 2011 chasing Andy while healthy.

 

[BroDeal]

This needs correction: - In 08 Evans was carrying injuries from his fall in the Pyrenees on stage 8 or 9, it had little to do with 'lack of a winner mentality'. Evans DID chase Sastre on the Alpe but had no strength so best he could do was try to limit the damage. Sastre ascended the Alpe that day in 39 minutes - about 3 minutes faster than an injury free Cadel rode up the Alpe in 2011. I agree Evan's mental approach improved since 2009 but his 'loss' in the 2008 Tour was more Physical and team related (as Movingtarget said). To me his ride into the wind up the Alpe in 2008 was mentally heroic knowing his injuries despite loosing 2 minutes. In hindsight it showed similar guts to his ride up the Galibier in 2011 chasing Andy while healthy.

Evans did not begin chasing Sastre until it was too late. Before that he lost time by d!cking around with the Schlecks. Dr. Ferrari's opinion of Evans was that he was dumb. 2008 may have cemented that opinion.

 

[Tom T.]

It is incredibly naive to think that any Tour winner in the last 20 years was clean.

 

[Parrulo]

This needs correction: - In 08 Evans was carrying injuries from his fall in the Pyrenees on stage 8 or 9, it had little to do with 'lack of a winner mentality'. Evans DID chase Sastre on the Alpe but had no strength so best he could do was try to limit the damage. Sastre ascended the Alpe that day in 39 minutes - about 3 minutes faster than an injury free Cadel rode up the Alpe in 2011. I agree Evan's mental approach improved since 2009 but his 'loss' in the 2008 Tour was more Physical and team related (as Movingtarget said). To me his ride into the wind up the Alpe in 2008 was mentally heroic knowing his injuries despite loosing 2 minutes. In hindsight it showed similar guts to his ride up the Galibier in 2011 chasing Andy while healthy.

just like brodeal said, even if he wasn't strong enough to follow sastre (which he wasn't) he should had started to limit his losses straight away and not when sastre was already 2 minutes up the climb. also the injuries couldn't have been that hard as he still finished second that year. or are we also supposed to believe that a clean, injured evans is still second place material at the tour against the rest of the dirty dopers?

 

[Cookster15]

Evans did not begin chasing Sastre until it was too late. Before that he lost time by d!cking around with the Schlecks. Dr. Ferrari's opinion of Evans was that he was dumb. 2008 may have cemented that opinion.

I see your point but I think you are being unfair knowing the facts. If you're carrying injuries, you'd look around for help too before deciding to do it on your own. Plus he considered the Schlecks to be at least as big a threat as Sastre - what is he to do? Anyhow, Sastre was still making time even after Evans put his head down.

As for Evans being "dumb", interesting, he comes across as quite intelligent to me? He might be "dumb" to a Doctor like Ferrari, but to the whole population and especially for a professional athlete I'd say he is still relatively "smart".

 

[Zultronova]

Bernard Kohl was doped to the gills at the 2008 Tour. There is zero chance that a "clean" Evans and Sastre could finish ahead of an oxygen vector doper in the final General Classification. Now digest that. What does it take for people to realize the truth when the simple answer is staring at them in the face.

 

[Parrulo]

I see your point but I think you are being unfair knowing the facts. If you're carrying injuries, you'd look around for help too before deciding to do it on your own. Plus he considered the Schlecks to be at least as big a threat as Sastre - what is he to do? Anyhow, Sastre was still making time even after Evans put his head down.

As for Evans being "dumb", interesting, he comes across as quite intelligent to me? He might be "dumb" to a Doctor like Ferrari, but to the whole population and especially for a professional athlete I'd say he is still relatively "smart".

ok let's put you in evans place. you are third in GC 8 seconds away from the leader who is a terrible time trialist and 1 second away from the second who also happens to be a bad time trialist and after this mountain stage you have a 2 days to rest before a 53k long itt where you will eat this guys alive. 40 seconds behind you there is an decent (sastre being a terrible time trialist has always been a myth) time trialist that on a good day at the end of a GT can pull a good performance and stay within some reasonable time of you and a very good time trialist just a few seconds behind him (menchov)

sastre attacks and menchov tries to follow but is immediately dropped by sastre and since he went into the red line he is even dropped by your group while sastre is riding away already within yellow.

what do you do?

easy answer, hit the front keep the very dangerous guy up the road now in virtual yellow in check and even if you lose time to the 2 guys ahead of you you can still easily get that time back on the time trial. it took evans too long to decide to ride for the win so he lost the tour.

but this is all beside the point of this thread.

 

[Cookster15]

just like brodeal said, even if he wasn't strong enough to follow sastre (which he wasn't) he should had started to limit his losses straight away and not when sastre was already 2 minutes up the climb. also the injuries couldn't have been that hard as he still finished second that year. or are we also supposed to believe that a clean, injured evans is still second place material at the tour against the rest of the dirty dopers?

Short of broken bones his injuries were bad for someone riding to try to win a Tour de France. Evans went into that race as overall favourite. I assume the dopers you refer to are Kohl and Valverde? In Kohl's case doping just brought him from nowhere (clean) to a podium. In Valverde's case, he had never shown the ability to stay strong for 3 weeks until the following year (Vuelta). No surprise a clean yet injured Evans beat these guys over 3 weeks. The Schlecks were playing to CSC team strategy with Sastre their eventual trump card but Evans still had to cover them both on the Alpe. He decided the Schleck's would also want to win so he gambled - and lost - by covering them while Sastre rode up the road. Vande Velde - if he was doping - see Kohl. Anyhow, we are all wise after the event.In the heat of the moment it is very different as I'm sure you would concede.

 

[Cookster15]

but this is all beside the point of this thread.

I agree, lets leave it here

 

[Parrulo]

Short of broken bones his injuries were bad for someone riding to try to win a Tour de France. Evans went into that race as overall favourite. I assume the dopers you refer to are Kohl and Valverde? In Kohl's case doping just brought him from nowhere (clean) to a podium. In Valverde's case, he had never shown the ability to stay strong for 3 weeks until the following year (Vuelta). No surprise a clean yet injured Evans beat these guys over 3 weeks. The Schlecks were playing to CSC team strategy with Sastre their eventual trump card but Evans still had to cover them both on the Alpe. He decided the Schleck's would also want to win so he gambled - and lost - by covering them while Sastre rode up the road. Vande Velde - if he was doping - see Kohl. Anyhow, we are all wise after the event.In the heat of the moment it is very different as I'm sure you would concede.

so you think that a clean evans could beat a doped up kohl? and no i wasn't talking about piti but i am glad you so lightly call some1 that has tested positive as many times as evans an heavy doper.

do you even know how much does doping enhance ones performance? armstrong was nowhere before he went on to dominate 7 tours in a roll against doped riders that were always top riders and top talents. that how far a good program can take you.

 

[Maxiton]

Evans did not begin chasing Sastre until it was too late. Before that he lost time by d!cking around with the Schlecks. Dr. Ferrari's opinion of Evans was that he was dumb. 2008 may have cemented that opinion.

If you were Ferrari and you said, sincerely, to a rider, "With your physiology and my methods, you will win everything until the day you retire!", and that rider replied, "Yeah, no thanks!", what would you think? You'd think he was dumb as rocks, right?

 

[wannab]

rather be niave than cycinal all my life

rather being realistic than naive, that blindly collective naive thinking is partly to blame now.

Some people were asking the right questions but were waved-off by the broad public who didn't want to see the reality, now it exploded in their faces.

I'd also like to state that every cycling fan has every right to be cynical, look at what cycling gave us the last 20years.

 

[webvan]

Bernard Kohl was doped to the gills at the 2008 Tour. There is zero chance that a "clean" Evans and Sastre could finish ahead of an oxygen vector doper in the final General Classification. Now digest that. What does it take for people to realize the truth when the simple answer is staring at them in the face.

No one will ever know for sure, but consider this : Kohl was a nobody with zero GT talent (sounds familiar ?) so let's do some simple math :
- assume undoped Kohl=80% of Evans (likely given his blank palmares)
- Kohl dopes and gets a 25% boost
-> Kohl=Evans

That's the whole tragedy of O2 vector doping, talentless guys got an edge and were able to compete/beat "very talented" guys (Dopestrong vs Ullrich in 2000 and 2001)...and talented guys were left to bite the dust.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

Bernard Kohl was doped to the gills at the 2008 Tour. There is zero chance that a "clean" Evans and Sastre could finish ahead of an oxygen vector doper in the final General Classification. Now digest that. What does it take for people to realize the truth when the simple answer is staring at them in the face.

So what you're saying is that if some Cat 5 were to become an oxygen vector doper, that they would magically become better than every clean cyclists out there? Just O2 vector doping helped Kohl immensely, that doesn't mean it was impossible to beat him clean.

 

[Zultronova]

No one will ever know for sure, but consider this : Kohl was a nobody with zero GT talent (sounds familiar ?) so let's do some simple math :
- assume undoped Kohl=80% of Evans (likely given his blank palmares)
- Kohl dopes and gets a 25% boost
-> Kohl=Evans

That's the whole tragedy of O2 vector doping, talentless guys got an edge and were able to compete/beat "very talented" guys (Dopestrong vs Ullrich in 2000 and 2001)...and talented guys were left to bite the dust.

Yes I am aware of Kohl's pedigree. But I have been told by a very reliable source that Sastre has doped, and this person was under no illusions about it.
Now that is not something I have just made up. That's the truth. I cannot and will not expand on this statement. For obvious reason's.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So what you're saying is that if some Cat 5 were to become an oxygen vector doper, that they would magically become better than every clean cyclists out there? Just O2 vector doping helped Kohl immensely, that doesn't mean it was impossible to beat him clean.

Be careful with this kind of thinking. Improved results depends on how the rider responds to O2 vector doping.

If the cheater is an extratordinary responder to O2 vector doping like an Armstrong, then it's zero-to-hero a week or more into your EPO cycle and no clean rider can beat them. The best current analogy is the Sky TdF performance. What could other teams do but hold on until they blew up?

If the cheater is not a responder to O2 vector drugs, then a clean rider with similar power output could possibly stay with the cheater.

More generally, the cheater's mentality is such that they would learn quickly that it's finding the right combination of PED's to substantially increase performance such that no clean rider could stay with them.

Given the way the UCI doesn't enforce anti-doping, I'd say clean riders still have no chance for a multi-day podium.

 

[The Hitch]

No one will ever know for sure, but consider this : Kohl was a nobody with zero GT talent (sounds familiar ?) so let's do some simple math :
- assume undoped Kohl=80% of Evans (likely given his blank palmares)
- Kohl dopes and gets a 25% boost
-> Kohl=Evans

That's the whole tragedy of O2 vector doping, talentless guys got an edge and were able to compete/beat "very talented" guys (Dopestrong vs Ullrich in 2000 and 2001)...and talented guys were left to bite the dust.

Why would Kohl be untalented? Plenty of dopers couldnt get near him. He had to have some talent, or he is the greatest responder ever.

 

[heinkel12]

The reason he didn't bridge to Sastre in 2008 on the Alpe is because he had every other TDF contender sitting on his wheel unwilling to help. If he bridges across to Sastre, assuming he could, he leaves himself open to counterattack from the Sclecks who are just waiting to pounce. When you are outnumbered three to one you are in danger of being worked over. He tried to limit his losses to Sastre while controlling the Schlecks and the rest. It's a simple tactical equation. He played the right cards just didn't have the end game in the time trial.

 

[Altitude]

If you believe Evans was clean in 2008 then you have to believe that Sastre and the Schlecks were also clean. They weren't. Bernie Kohl said the entire top 10 were on the lube and I believe him.

Anyways, Evans totally blew it on Alpe d'huez, didn't start chasing until it was wayy too late. Schlecks were toying with him all the way up the climb.