Cadel's destintation...

[auscyclefan94]

At least he'll be there.
What did VDB ever do to you/Cadel?

He hasn't done anything to me. I'm just saying that i don't see him being inside the top 20. He may scrape in but that's it. Definetly top 15. BMC will get the tdf invite.
http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=926514

Interview with Aussie media

"[Lotto] added in a couple of races that I didn't want to do, but was obligated to for whatever reason," Evans says, reflecting on his 2009 season. He rolls his eyes. "I made it very clear: no, no, no. When you go away from your plan it's nearly always a compromise."

Evans blames his 30th place at the 2009 Tour de France – his worst of his four appearances – partly on this schedule conflict. Somehow, he would pick himself up from the disaster and one week before the World Championships, Evans made history. With his third placing he became the first Australian to finish on the podium of the Vuelta a Espana, the seasons third and final Grand Tour.

 

[blackcat]

that is a cop out from Evans. He should try and watch what he says, even to the Australian media, as it invariably bites him on the bum.

I want to know why the heck he went so deep in the Dauphine to try and win. And now he blames his peak and race program on the Lotto guys. Come on Cadel, good for the goose... You chose to go deep in the Dauphine. Certainly this has more relevance over your first half of the Tour de France than riding Romandie or Catalunya or California or Down Under or the Giro.

Seems pretty hypocritical and contradictory. He might have been told to win the Dauphine, and he is a pro, and pros win. They dont ride for second. But he could have switched off at Dauphine, and taken his form to the Tour.

The worst piece of the puzzle was the team chrono. And Lotto needed to take responsibility for that. They needed guys they lost like Roesems, Cornu and a few others beside Leif Hoste, to be there for the chrono. They needed those riders to change their training to work in different zones for the TTT. This would have compromised the team, as it compromised those riders abilities to do both, be engines in the chrono, and domestiques on hilly intermediate stages and the mtn guys in the Queen and HC stages.

Apart from guys like Hincapie, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, how many domestiques can adequately fill those positions. Definitely none on Lotto. Van den Broeck does not yet have the ability to be a top team timetrialer. He would hold his own, like Vansummeren, but they were profoundly weak in this discipline. Lloyd exacerbated it.

 

[blackcat]

He hasn't done anything to me. I'm just saying that i don't see him being inside the top 20. He may scrape in but that's it. Definetly top 15. BMC will get the tdf invite.
http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=926514

Interview with Aussie media

AusCycle. Top 20 and top 15 is usually a function of commitment (riding for GC result every stage) and following wheels and finding a breakaway that gets 20 minutes. A combination of those factors.

When you hit 8-10 positions, then riders would prefer to go home with a stage win, instead of a high classement. Unless they are team leaders with a direction from management to ride for GC. Or unless they are the top Frenchman.

So when you hit 8-20, some riders do reverse breakaways, they lose touch on the less selective stages, to intentionally lose 10-15 minutes, so they can then go on a free breakaway, which will not be shutdown by the teams in GC contention. The KOM usually lose time early, so they can go on long breakaways, that GC contenders would not be allowed to.

This means, that there is often a false classification of riders from 8-20. It is not a real classement, in terms of who had the best ride on the selective stages for the Tour. The mtn top finishes, the mtn descent finishes, and the chronos.

Some Tours, you will have 15th place going out to 1 hour in some Tour de France final classifications.

If you think Jurgen Van den Broeck cannot ride defensively for a top 15th place in the Tour next year, under the circumstances I have just described, you really need to SWOT up on your cycling knowledge.

 

[Galic Ho]

Evans has podiumed in 3 GTs in 3 years. That's something VDB can't say

Sastre podiumed in 3 consecutive Grand Tours. He even beat Cadel to win a Grand Tour. Contador has won his last four. He has some catching up to do.

As for you question about 'what did VDB ever to to you/Cadel?' earlier:

If Redants orders were to get into a breakaway and then help Cadel if the break gets caught, VDB never helped when Cadel caught up. He either tried to go alone for the stage, or blew up so bad that Cadel rode straight past him..

So it's not about what did VDB ever do, it's about what he didn't do. He didn't help in mountain stages and he certainly didn't help in the TTT, the two things he was there to do...

I will not dispute that Jurgen probably chucked a hissy fit after the TTT. By all accounts I've heard, even from Coucke himself, that is the impression that has been given.

Did this ruin Cadels tour? No. He did that all on his own. Team captain on the road. Talked to his troops beforehand, as I remember clearly Liggett and Sherwin commentating on him calming his team. One fall and all that changed. Waste a minute waiting for Jurgen, he can't make it back, leave him behind. Then Greg falls off. Wait for him or race? Cadel should have insisted they were drilled. Distinct plan with contingencies at hand should a situation such as those that occured, ever arise. Silence had nothing and when tactics needed evolving, there was no master to initiate the evolution on the road. That was Cadels leadership for you. I'll also remember the memo to the team in the final few hundred metres. Drop everyone but Lang and power on. Daft, stupid and moronic rolled into one action. They get your water bottles and help you everyday...mark of a genius to alienate them. No wonder Jurgen was peeved.

Help in the mountain stages. Firstly the only stage in the Pyrenees that was hard was Arcalis. Cadel was one of three riders who attacked the peloton. He attacked first and dropped everyone but LLS and AC. No surprise Caisse were helping Alberto and his good friend Luis was there. Lance and Andy pulled the others back. Second attack. Silence Lotto again...Jurgen Van den Broucke. Gapped the peloton by a minor margin. Third attack, worked perfectly and initiated by Contador. Sorry, Silence helped Cadel in the Pyrenees.

The Alps. Only day Cadel was there was stage 15 to Verbier. Base of the climb, a breakaway is caught by the peloton lead by Saxobank. O'Grady, Sorensen and Arvesen peel off and Spartacus takes over. He murders the rest of the group. The elect frontrunners take their places as Andy Schleck briefly takes over and then Astana take the slack with Kloden doing all the work. Cadel didn't make the front group. Never came close as he wasn't far enough up the ranks at the base. Lloyd and Wigellius stuck with Evans as long as they could. Jurgen was in a day long breakaway the day before, the stage Astarloza won. Cadel was lucky Sastre wanted to catch up and that Lance was having a bad day. Carlos had less team riders with him than Evans. Cadel needed the draft. That was the only day he matched the top 10 guys in the Alps.

Cadels tour over and with his obvious problems the team tried to make some order out of the race and sent Jurgen for stage wins. He tried in the wrong places and came close one day. Didn't look great as a viewer but given all we know about Silence/Cadel and the undertakings of the TdF 2009, it makes sense that Redant and Sergeant wanted to salvage something with Jurgen. I won't even bother stating how far behind Cadel was on day 16, but on day 17 he was dropped on the second of five hills. Jurgen doesn't need to explain his racing given that performance by the team captain. Cadel never caught up to the breakaways Jurgen was in after Verbier, case closed.

The only thing that will change now at BMC, is Evans will have something else to complain about. A brand new excuse...his new team.

 

[auscyclefan94]

that is a cop out from Evans. He should try and watch what he says, even to the Australian media, as it invariably bites him on the bum.

I want to know why the heck he went so deep in the Dauphine to try and win. And now he blames his peak and race program on the Lotto guys. Come on Cadel, good for the goose... You chose to go deep in the Dauphine. Certainly this has more relevance over your first half of the Tour de France than riding Romandie or Catalunya or California or Down Under or the Giro.

Seems pretty hypocritical and contradictory. He might have been told to win the Dauphine, and he is a pro, and pros win. They dont ride for second. But he could have switched off at Dauphine, and taken his form to the Tour.

The worst piece of the puzzle was the team chrono. And Lotto needed to take responsibility for that. They needed guys they lost like Roesems, Cornu and a few others beside Leif Hoste, to be there for the chrono. They needed those riders to change their training to work in different zones for the TTT. This would have compromised the team, as it compromised those riders abilities to do both, be engines in the chrono, and domestiques on hilly intermediate stages and the mtn guys in the Queen and HC stages.

Apart from guys like Hincapie, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, how many domestiques can adequately fill those positions. Definitely none on Lotto. Van den Broeck does not yet have the ability to be a top team timetrialer. He would hold his own, like Vansummeren, but they were profoundly weak in this discipline. Lloyd exacerbated it.

He said to adelaide media that he was able to choose his program at BMC. He went hard to win at the dauphine as he was only 17" away. I personally think he had too greater form in the dauphine as he peaked too early. That's why he probably felt that he was good enough to for the win. I think riders should only be at 80 - 85 percent at the dauphine. Evans was at 90%. it is proven that riders who are good in the dauphine are ****ed at the tour. Mayo, Moreau, Valverde and evans have all been examples of this.

The other day i read that evans said that he knew 2009 wouldn't be he is year in the close lead up to the tour with the ttt but he saw that S/L had put in their best team they ever had.

 

[blackcat]

S I'll also remember the memo to the team in the final few hundred metres. Drop everyone but Lang and power on. Daft, stupid and moronic rolled into one action. They get your water bottles and help you everyday...mark of a genius to alienate them. No wonder Jurgen was peeved.

Hang on, did they really say this? "Drop everyone but Lang"???

Because the rules are that the 5th man stops the clock. And I saw the finish, Evans decimated the group, the 5th man and the others lost his wheel, lost his slipstream.

Evans had to tow the 5th man, and be aware of getting the 5th man across the line as fast as possible, because this is when his time stopped.

Is that Lotto's tactics? Did they know the rules? Did they think that their strategy was going to get the 5th place man across the line fastest?

That is absurd. Risible.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Sastre podiumed in 3 consecutive Grand Tours. He even beat Cadel to win a Grand Tour. Contador has won his last four. He has some catching up to do.



I will not dispute that Jurgen probably chucked a hissy fit after the TTT. By all accounts I've heard, even from Coucke himself, that is the impression that has been given.

Did this ruin Cadels tour? No. He did that all on his own. Team captain on the road. Talked to his troops beforehand, as I remember clearly Liggett and Sherwin commentating on him calming his team. One fall and all that changed. Waste a minute waiting for Jurgen, he can't make it back, leave him behind. Then Greg falls off. Wait for him or race? Cadel should have insisted they were drilled. Distinct plan with contingencies at hand should a situation such as those that occured, ever arise. Silence had nothing and when tactics needed evolving, there was no master to initiate the evolution on the road. That was Cadels leadership for you. I'll also remember the memo to the team in the final few hundred metres. Drop everyone but Lang and power on. Daft, stupid and moronic rolled into one action. They get your water bottles and help you everyday...mark of a genius to alienate them. No wonder Jurgen was peeved.

Help in the mountain stages. Firstly the only stage in the Pyrenees that was hard was Arcalis. Cadel was one of three riders who attacked the peloton. He attacked first and dropped everyone but LLS and AC. No surprise Caisse were helping Alberto and his good friend Luis was there. Lance and Andy pulled the others back. Second attack. Silence Lotto again...Jurgen Van den Broucke. Gapped the peloton by a minor margin. Third attack, worked perfectly and initiated by Contador. Sorry, Silence helped Cadel in the Pyrenees.

The Alps. Only day Cadel was there was stage 15 to Verbier. Base of the climb, a breakaway is caught by the peloton lead by Saxobank. O'Grady, Sorensen and Arvesen peel off and Spartacus takes over. He murders the rest of the group. The elect frontrunners take their places as Andy Schleck briefly takes over and then Astana take the slack with Kloden doing all the work. Cadel didn't make the front group. Never came close as he wasn't far enough up the ranks at the base. Lloyd and Wigellius stuck with Evans as long as they could. Jurgen was in a day long breakaway the day before, the stage Astarloza won. Cadel was lucky Sastre wanted to catch up and that Lance was having a bad day. Carlos had less team riders with him than Evans. Cadel needed the draft. That was the only day he matched the top 10 guys in the Alps.

Cadels tour over and with his obvious problems the team tried to make some order out of the race and sent Jurgen for stage wins. He tried in the wrong places and came close one day. Didn't look great as a viewer but given all we know about Silence/Cadel and the undertakings of the TdF 2009, it makes sense that Redant and Sergeant wanted to salvage something with Jurgen. I won't even bother stating how far behind Cadel was on day 16, but on day 17 he was dropped on the second of five hills. Jurgen doesn't need to explain his racing given that performance by the team captain. Cadel never caught up to the breakaways Jurgen was in after Verbier, case closed.

The only thing that will change now at BMC, is Evans will have something else to complain about. A brand new excuse...his new team.

It was the teams ds call to wait for van den Broeck as they saw him as a strong man. After each of the crashes once they got back on they couldn't hack the pace and were dropped.

Silence were good in the Arcalis stage but the ttt proved how un prepared they were. From what i've heard CE wanted the team to do ttt practise on the actual course. Originally they weren't even going to do any ttt practise at all until it was reccomended that they did some practise on that racing car track in belgium.

In the alps it wasn't that evans' legs were bad but he had some sort of infection and was coughing up **** loads of phlegm.

With CE dropping everyone in the final 200m, that's ******** that it was his fault. When your in the final 200m you sprint. Evans was pulling the team to the line and Lang was the only one who could follow. the rest were too weak. I don't think CE initially knew that he had dropped the team.

With Jurgen van den Coucke in the breakaways he was able to get in them as he is unkown, when evans was in them they all wouldn't work with him as he was a threat. Same with his attack on Arcalis, everyone was looking at each other so he went and nobody chased because they don't know of him as a threat. Jurgen van den Coucke good luck next year but he won't be able to hide in breakways.

Interesting to note that Gilbert is not planning to ride the 2010 tour. i though he would be a chance to win a few stages especially the one to mende and the stage which uses the route liege bastogne liege. Now they won't win anything.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Sastre podiumed in 3 consecutive Grand Tours. He even beat Cadel to win a Grand Tour. Contador has won his last four. He has some catching up to do.



I will not dispute that Jurgen probably chucked a hissy fit after the TTT. By all accounts I've heard, even from Coucke himself, that is the impression that has been given.

Did this ruin Cadels tour? No. He did that all on his own. Team captain on the road. Talked to his troops beforehand, as I remember clearly Liggett and Sherwin commentating on him calming his team. One fall and all that changed. Waste a minute waiting for Jurgen, he can't make it back, leave him behind. Then Greg falls off. Wait for him or race? Cadel should have insisted they were drilled. Distinct plan with contingencies at hand should a situation such as those that occured, ever arise. Silence had nothing and when tactics needed evolving, there was no master to initiate the evolution on the road. That was Cadels leadership for you. I'll also remember the memo to the team in the final few hundred metres. Drop everyone but Lang and power on. Daft, stupid and moronic rolled into one action. They get your water bottles and help you everyday...mark of a genius to alienate them. No wonder Jurgen was peeved.

Help in the mountain stages. Firstly the only stage in the Pyrenees that was hard was Arcalis. Cadel was one of three riders who attacked the peloton. He attacked first and dropped everyone but LLS and AC. No surprise Caisse were helping Alberto and his good friend Luis was there. Lance and Andy pulled the others back. Second attack. Silence Lotto again...Jurgen Van den Broucke. Gapped the peloton by a minor margin. Third attack, worked perfectly and initiated by Contador. Sorry, Silence helped Cadel in the Pyrenees.

The Alps. Only day Cadel was there was stage 15 to Verbier. Base of the climb, a breakaway is caught by the peloton lead by Saxobank. O'Grady, Sorensen and Arvesen peel off and Spartacus takes over. He murders the rest of the group. The elect frontrunners take their places as Andy Schleck briefly takes over and then Astana take the slack with Kloden doing all the work. Cadel didn't make the front group. Never came close as he wasn't far enough up the ranks at the base. Lloyd and Wigellius stuck with Evans as long as they could. Jurgen was in a day long breakaway the day before, the stage Astarloza won. Cadel was lucky Sastre wanted to catch up and that Lance was having a bad day. Carlos had less team riders with him than Evans. Cadel needed the draft. That was the only day he matched the top 10 guys in the Alps.

Cadels tour over and with his obvious problems the team tried to make some order out of the race and sent Jurgen for stage wins. He tried in the wrong places and came close one day. Didn't look great as a viewer but given all we know about Silence/Cadel and the undertakings of the TdF 2009, it makes sense that Redant and Sergeant wanted to salvage something with Jurgen. I won't even bother stating how far behind Cadel was on day 16, but on day 17 he was dropped on the second of five hills. Jurgen doesn't need to explain his racing given that performance by the team captain. Cadel never caught up to the breakaways Jurgen was in after Verbier, case closed.

The only thing that will change now at BMC, is Evans will have something else to complain about. A brand new excuse...his new team.

Hang on, did they really say this? "Drop everyone but Lang"???

Because the rules are that the 5th man stops the clock. And I saw the finish, Evans decimated the group, the 5th man and the others lost his wheel, lost his slipstream.

Evans had to tow the 5th man, and be aware of getting the 5th man across the line as fast as possible, because this is when his time stopped.

Is that Lotto's tactics? Did they know the rules? Did they think that their strategy was going to get the 5th place man across the line fastest?

That is absurd. Risible.

That wouldn't surprise me with Lotto saying that but their is no logic in doing it. Evans was doing all the pulls in the final km's. What i found weird is why they were all in a straight line in the home stright when it would of been quicker to pan out. it really showed the lack of practise that lotto had in the ttt

 

[blackcat]

That wouldn't surprise me with Lotto saying that but their is no logic in doing it. Evans was doing all the pulls in the final km's. What i found weird is why they were all in a straight line in the home stright when it would of been quicker to pan out. it really showed the lack of practise that lotto had in the ttt

nah, it is faster in a straight line if your team does not have even strength.

But they did not go in a straight line. They were decimated.

In an even strength team, you use the slipstream to slingshot your 5th rider, like a teams pursuit finishing formation. As you said, have them pan out. But that assumes equal strength.

 

[Galic Ho]

Hang on, did they really say this? "Drop everyone but Lang"???

Because the rules are that the 5th man stops the clock. And I saw the finish, Evans decimated the group, the 5th man and the others lost his wheel, lost his slipstream.

Evans had to tow the 5th man, and be aware of getting the 5th man across the line as fast as possible, because this is when his time stopped.

Is that Lotto's tactics? Did they know the rules? Did they think that their strategy was going to get the 5th place man across the line fastest?

I suspect there was no team plan other than ride and have certain riders doing the work at particular intervals. Memo was by Cadel. His riding. Vansummeren dropped, only Lang could keep up in the final kilometre. Absurd is Cadel not towing 5th place. He stops the clock. Psychologically Cadel divided his team at that moment. I think most of the riders understood his actions, but people are petty. They hold grudges. Why risk opening the door for this? For 5 seconds when you've dropped over 2 minutes!

Inconsistent behaviour from Evans. Happened before, will happen again. People are creatures of habit.

It was the teams ds call to wait for van den Broeck as they saw him as a strong man. After each of the crashes once they got back on they couldn't hack the pace and were dropped.

That is where leadership by the team captain is essential. Override the DS. By all accounts Contador did as much to Bruyneel. The team admitted they wasted at least a minute. They lost another 2 on course. You yourself stated that Cadel was hinting recently he felt the TTT was where he'd loose it. He knew he couldn't waste time, but he let the team waste time anyway. Why?

Silence were good in the Arcalis stage but the ttt proved how un prepared they were. From what i've heard CE wanted the team to do ttt practise on the actual course. Originally they weren't even going to do any ttt practise at all until it was reccomended that they did some practise on that racing car track in belgium.

Then make the practice happen. Liggett and Sherwen briefed us on the teams who had done recon. Garmin spent the last week before the Tour on that TTT course for 2-3 days. They were drilled. Half their squad were dropped. They powered on. Garmin made that stage enjoyable. Awesome when they had 5 guys. Awesome! Poetry on a bike. HTC practiced, so too did Saxo, HTC, Liquigas and Caisse. Some specifically trained in TTT work and some further expanded and did major recon work on that course (which was $h!t).

In the alps it wasn't that evans' legs were bad but he had some sort of infection and was coughing up **** loads of phlegm.

Again proving that Silence didn't fail Cadel. Jurgen had every right to go ahead if that is the case. I suggested as much on the SBS website at the time. He was sick and it wasn't politics alone. They didn't post my comment. They didn't want to advertise that Coucke was being a douche either. I said he was and provided a link to show as much. They've changed their tune now. Why not then as it was unraveling?

With CE dropping everyone in the final 200m, that's ******** that it was his fault. When your in the final 200m you sprint. Evans was pulling the team to the line and Lang was the only one who could follow. the rest were too weak. I don't think CE initially knew that he had dropped the team.

Of course you sprint in the final 200m. Cadel had five seconds or more on his squad. Not gained in 200m. He pulled too hard and too late. Should have done so earlier. The team was under prepared and had little or no stage plan. He is team captain, riding for GC. Evans should have opened his mouth. He's been saying he was voicing concerns about his program (after he left the team of course) being too heavy, so why not about the most crucial stage in the tour? The one stage he admits would make or break his challenge. Evans has no problem opening his mouth now, why not then? Aussiecyclefan, you know the reason, you just do not like the answer. He doesn't have the balls to lead or muster the courage to dictate to a foolish DS. Cadel must take some blame. Not knowing they were dropped? Yeah, convenient excuse. You reap what you sow. Seeds of division and doubt, especially in Cadels own mind.

With Jurgen van den Coucke in the breakaways he was able to get in them as he is unkown, when evans was in them they all wouldn't work with him as he was a threat. Same with his attack on Arcalis, everyone was looking at each other so he went and nobody chased because they don't know of him as a threat. Jurgen van den Coucke good luck next year but he won't be able to hide in breakways.

Interesting to note that Gilbert is not planning to ride the 2010 tour. i though he would be a chance to win a few stages especially the one to mende and the stage which uses the route liege bastogne liege. Now they won't win anything.

Agree with Jurgen's success relating to his reputation. Do you agree he had a right to try given Cadel was toast? Did you see who Cadel was yelling at on stage 9? F*%K them! Don't argue, especially when the breakaway was created by your move. Cadel, played the same cards...the sheep card. Follow what the herd wants and then whinge about them hurting your feelings and acting like children. They did, but you don't have to bend to their will. I liked his move, but screaming at Hushovd and Cancellara solves nothing. Ignore them and pull hard on a hill. He'd have dropped both. Both never intended on winning the stage...a blind man could see this. So their arguments were complete ********. Just race Cadel, race. He stopped. Sound of me hitting my forehead! Good luck with team relations when Spartacus joins BMC.

So you would not like Matty Lloyd to have a crack? Or is Cadel the annointed aussie rider to support alone, ahead of every other? OPL can now win stages as they won't have to help Cadel. Going for stage wins will work. They'll come closer than he ever did.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I suspect there was no team plan other than ride and have certain riders doing the work at particular intervals. Memo was by Cadel. His riding. Vansummeren dropped, only Lang could keep up in the final kilometre. Absurd is Cadel not towing 5th place. He stops the clock. Psychologically Cadel divided his team at that moment. I think most of the riders understood his actions, but people are petty. They hold grudges. Why risk opening the door for this? For 5 seconds when you've dropped over 2 minutes!

Inconsistent behaviour from Evans. Happened before, will happen again. People are creatures of habit.



That is where leadership by the team captain is essential. Override the DS. By all accounts Contador did as much to Bruyneel. The team admitted they wasted at least a minute. They lost another 2 on course. You yourself stated that Cadel was hinting recently he felt the TTT was where he'd loose it. He knew he couldn't waste time, but he let the team waste time anyway. Why?



Then make the practice happen. Liggett and Sherwen briefed us on the teams who had done recon. Garmin spent the last week before the Tour on that TTT course for 2-3 days. They were drilled. Half their squad were dropped. They powered on. Garmin made that stage enjoyable. Awesome when they had 5 guys. Awesome! Poetry on a bike. HTC practiced, so too did Saxo, HTC, Liquigas and Caisse. Some specifically trained in TTT work and some further expanded and did major recon work on that course (which was $h!t).



Again proving that Silence didn't fail Cadel. Jurgen had every right to go ahead if that is the case. I suggested as much on the SBS website at the time. He was sick and it wasn't politics alone. They didn't post my comment. They didn't want to advertise that Coucke was being a douche either. I said he was and provided a link to show as much. They've changed their tune now. Why not then as it was unraveling?



Of course you sprint in the final 200m. Cadel had five seconds or more on his squad. Not gained in 200m. He pulled too hard and too late. Should have done so earlier. The team was under prepared and had little or no stage plan. He is team captain, riding for GC. Evans should have opened his mouth. He's been saying he was voicing concerns about his program (after he left the team of course) being too heavy, so why not about the most crucial stage in the tour? The one stage he admits would make or break his challenge. Evans has no problem opening his mouth now, why not then? Aussiecyclefan, you know the reason, you just do not like the answer. He doesn't have the balls to lead or muster the courage to dictate to a foolish DS. Cadel must take some blame. Not knowing they were dropped? Yeah, convenient excuse. You reap what you sow. Seeds of division and doubt, especially in Cadels own mind.



Agree with Jurgen's success relating to his reputation. Do you agree he had a right to try given Cadel was toast? Did you see who Cadel was yelling at on stage 9? F*%K them! Don't argue, especially when the breakaway was created by your move. Cadel, played the same cards...the sheep card. Follow what the herd wants and then whinge about them hurting your feelings and acting like children. They did, but you don't have to bend to their will. I liked his move, but screaming at Hushovd and Cancellara solves nothing. Ignore them and pull hard on a hill. He'd have dropped both. Both never intended on winning the stage...a blind man could see this. So their arguments were complete ********. Just race Cadel, race. He stopped. Sound of me hitting my forehead! Good luck with team relations when Spartacus joins BMC.

So you would not like Matty Lloyd to have a crack? Or is Cadel the annointed aussie rider to support alone, ahead of every other? OPL can now win stages as they won't have to help Cadel. Going for stage wins will work. They'll come closer than he ever did.

I personally think you are putting the majority of the blame on Evans whiich is not right.

 

[blackcat]

I personally think you are putting the majority of the blame on Evans whiich is not right.

Devil's advocate AusCycle, devil's advocate. I would be leaning to agreement with most of Gallic Ho, with a few reservations. I think he is using intarwebs licence to be a little strident with the vehemence. So, sober appraisal, in light of day, he may tone it down, pull it back. But basically, I am coming from the same position, and I love a good vitriolic 'net rant. If the forums and 'net ain't good for a li'l anonymous abuse, what good are they for.

 

[blaxland]

Coucke is a tool a Van den Breakaway won't even finish top 20 in the tour next year!!!!

+1 agreed....and maybe not the top 30?

 

[auscyclefan94]

I suspect there was no team plan other than ride and have certain riders doing the work at particular intervals. Memo was by Cadel. His riding. Vansummeren dropped, only Lang could keep up in the final kilometre. Absurd is Cadel not towing 5th place. He stops the clock. Psychologically Cadel divided his team at that moment. I think most of the riders understood his actions, but people are petty. They hold grudges. Why risk opening the door for this? For 5 seconds when you've dropped over 2 minutes!

Inconsistent behaviour from Evans. Happened before, will happen again. People are creatures of habit.



That is where leadership by the team captain is essential. Override the DS. By all accounts Contador did as much to Bruyneel. The team admitted they wasted at least a minute. They lost another 2 on course. You yourself stated that Cadel was hinting recently he felt the TTT was where he'd loose it. He knew he couldn't waste time, but he let the team waste time anyway. Why?



Then make the practice happen. Liggett and Sherwen briefed us on the teams who had done recon. Garmin spent the last week before the Tour on that TTT course for 2-3 days. They were drilled. Half their squad were dropped. They powered on. Garmin made that stage enjoyable. Awesome when they had 5 guys. Awesome! Poetry on a bike. HTC practiced, so too did Saxo, HTC, Liquigas and Caisse. Some specifically trained in TTT work and some further expanded and did major recon work on that course (which was $h!t).



Again proving that Silence didn't fail Cadel. Jurgen had every right to go ahead if that is the case. I suggested as much on the SBS website at the time. He was sick and it wasn't politics alone. They didn't post my comment. They didn't want to advertise that Coucke was being a douche either. I said he was and provided a link to show as much. They've changed their tune now. Why not then as it was unraveling?



Of course you sprint in the final 200m. Cadel had five seconds or more on his squad. Not gained in 200m. He pulled too hard and too late. Should have done so earlier. The team was under prepared and had little or no stage plan. He is team captain, riding for GC. Evans should have opened his mouth. He's been saying he was voicing concerns about his program (after he left the team of course) being too heavy, so why not about the most crucial stage in the tour? The one stage he admits would make or break his challenge. Evans has no problem opening his mouth now, why not then? Aussiecyclefan, you know the reason, you just do not like the answer. He doesn't have the balls to lead or muster the courage to dictate to a foolish DS. Cadel must take some blame. Not knowing they were dropped? Yeah, convenient excuse. You reap what you sow. Seeds of division and doubt, especially in Cadels own mind.



Agree with Jurgen's success relating to his reputation. Do you agree he had a right to try given Cadel was toast? Did you see who Cadel was yelling at on stage 9? F*%K them! Don't argue, especially when the breakaway was created by your move. Cadel, played the same cards...the sheep card. Follow what the herd wants and then whinge about them hurting your feelings and acting like children. They did, but you don't have to bend to their will. I liked his move, but screaming at Hushovd and Cancellara solves nothing. Ignore them and pull hard on a hill. He'd have dropped both. Both never intended on winning the stage...a blind man could see this. So their arguments were complete ********. Just race Cadel, race. He stopped. Sound of me hitting my forehead! Good luck with team relations when Spartacus joins BMC.

So you would not like Matty Lloyd to have a crack? Or is Cadel the annointed aussie rider to support alone, ahead of every other? OPL can now win stages as they won't have to help Cadel. Going for stage wins will work. They'll come closer than he ever did.

The DS can speak to everyone and control what's happeining on the road. While a ttt is on it's not easy to change a team plan like that esp on a technical course. AC overided JB's order because it was during a road race and he was riding on his own.

You said CE should of took control of the team but then you say it was he that let the time waste away by waiting. Make up your mind.

CE can suggest things but he can't override a DS. That's absurd. The DS runs the team. He makes the final call. When CE dropped everyone except Lang, well that showed that the team were very weak. He was doing all the big pulls with Lang. The strong riders make the big turns so they can get the weaker riders home. Lang and Evans started to sprint. the others couldn't hack it. That's not CE's fault. he's supposed to drag them to the line. Also, Evans did open his mouth about not doing the recon of the course.

Jurgen had the right to be in those breakaway's though i was annoyed to hear Mark Coucke's comments about him being the leader. Same with Jurgen's comments in the media about Cadel. He makes it like it's Cadel's fault for not teaching him and makes that an excuse as he is going to be chucked into the deep end.

With the breakaway, CE needed the others to work as he wouldn't survive on his own. He could shout at them all they like but Cancellara wouldn't budge. it was pointless to continue. If Spartacus comes to BMC, well i don't see that as a major problem as FC and CE have been known to go on training rides with each other as they live near each other.

 

[Galic Ho]

I personally think you are putting the majority of the blame on Evans whiich is not right.

No it isn't. It sounds like I am, but all I am doing is deconstructing the TTT. Cadel did his best. The riders did their best. It wasn't good enough to meet prior goals and expectations and Coucke (major douchebag opened his flapper and destroyed team morale) couldn't accept this and let loose his drivel. I was only highlighting Cadel helped create an opportunity for this to happen by not being affirmative and taut.

The DS can speak to everyone and control what's happeining on the road. While a ttt is on it's not easy to change a team plan like that esp on a technical course. AC overided JB's order because it was during a road race and he was riding on his own.

Its called a contingency plan. Probability analysis can help determine the most likely scenarios and the risk/reward of behaviours. OPL should have been better prepared and after complaining about shortages in support in previous years Cadel should have insisted they were drilled like an F1 pit crew. I'm yet to hear he did. It is very easy to say, he's dropped, lets not waste time. Rabobank had similar stuff ups. Two crashes early on, but they only waited for one rider who fell, Menchov and then got down to business. Hence they lost less time than Silence. Numerous teams lost riders and they were left to fend for themselves. OPL suffer a crash in the back two riders, one falls and then they just sit up. A drilled team would be proactive and take command.

You said CE should of took control of the team but then you say it was he that let the time waste away by waiting. Make up your mind.

Same thing. He waited too late to power home. He did power at the end, risky psychological wise for team morale, but a risk he had to take given he hadn't pushed on earlier. Basically I am saying, Cadel should have said "stuff Jurgen, he's on his own, we won't waste time." They did waste time for a guy who never caught back up and then lost more time when Vansummeren fell off the back. Cadel's pushing at the end came too late. It was in vain. He needed to be pushing when Jurgen fell. Unfortunate, but its not kindergarten and we hold each others hands.

CE can suggest things but he can't override a DS. That's absurd. The DS runs the team. He makes the final call. When CE dropped everyone except Lang, well that showed that the team were very weak. He was doing all the big pulls with Lang. The strong riders make the big turns so they can get the weaker riders home. Lang and Evans started to sprint. the others couldn't hack it. That's not CE's fault. he's supposed to drag them to the line. Also, Evans did open his mouth about not doing the recon of the course.

Given the way you've talked about Silence management, Evans can over ride the DS. He doesn't pedal the course. What happens on the road is dictated by the riders, not the DS. Fair enough Cadel and Lang tried and were stronger than the team. But my point was, is it worth five seconds to send that message to your team. Those guys were already scared of stuffing up for Cadel. I suspect Cadel's reluctance to bluff with the DS and management played a part in his move to BMC. After all, he says they are more laid back. Perhaps they will listen to him and do as he asks.

Jurgen had the right to be in those breakaway's though i was annoyed to hear Mark Coucke's comments about him being the leader. Same with Jurgen's comments in the media about Cadel. He makes it like it's Cadel's fault for not teaching him and makes that an excuse as he is going to be chucked into the deep end.

Agree about Coucke. He's a tool. Mid-tour and he undermines an already fragmented team. He gave Jurgen a reason to act like a git. But Jurgens recent comments only came the other day. Sounded like he wanted everyone to know that Cadel wasn't his mentor. Which is fair enough. He's the new no.1 and has to be on side with management. One or two minor statements about Cadel not being the 'be all to end all' goes down well with the managers who are rubbing their hurt egos.

With the breakaway, CE needed the others to work as he wouldn't survive on his own. He could shout at them all they like but Cancellara wouldn't budge. it was pointless to continue. If Spartacus comes to BMC, well i don't see that as a major problem as FC and CE have been known to go on training rides with each other as they live near each other.

We're both Australian. I like Hushovd and Cancellara. If they'd have spoken to me like that they'd be pulling my foot out of their rears after the stage. I'd have played it cool on course and lit the fires off the bike. Most Australians can do this or at least threaten to do this. Most people take us seriously enough to know we mean it. Cancellara doesn;t have to budge. Sit on the back of the group and drop them on the hill. It wasn't far ahead. Cancellara was there for the attack from Andy (I called it and it happened) and Hushovd was out for green jersey points. Their excuse about not being able to win was bull and they knew it. Cadel should have told them to use their brains...they were all going to be caught.

 

[blackcat]

Gallic,
from my understanding, clock stops on the 5th rider.

So, you are too ambiguous when you say "was it worth 5 secs" which is inferring to me, that he could stop the clock himself.

AusCycle, Cadel did not sprint. He was in the saddle, and you could see his legs go as he shifted into the 11 cog, and really put down the power in the last k. He separated everyone. It was not a final sprint which decimated and splintered the riders.

Ofcourse, as long as the riders are within one second gap, there probably is the clock stopping on man 1. If the 5th man is outside one second gap, from 4th, he stops the clock.

1 second at 60 kmph is about 17 metres. So if you take 16 metres, the hypothetical best finishing formation, is to slipstream slingshot the riders and get all out of the slipstream but get the strongest guy 16 metres in front of 2nd, and 2nd 16 metres in front, which would be 4x16 metres, which is 64 metres in front of 5th. Purely hypothetical, and not practical.

As is, get all 5 across the line together, sprinting, and using slipstream slingshot and fan out.

Why they did the preparation on a race track, versus a road course is beyond me. The race track is training as science. May as well have done the training as a team pursuit on the velodrome, or sent the riders home by tehemselves to motopace at 55km then hit the win for 20 seconds working in a certain zone and threshold.

The on course, in competition TTT, is one part science. Not 100%. It is one part science, one part art. The team needs to know the parcours, and know their teammates, and how they can handle the course. They need to know when and where they can expend their efforts, and who can expend their efforts. They need to have that knowledge of their teammates.

Most importantly, in the TTT is to use ALL your resources. That is to say, your weakest riders. Unless they are GC leaders, you need to know how to use them. This requires some strategy about 1. knowledge of the time cut. 2. Then a plan about how to use their resources in the formation. Can they really hammer in the first 10kms, go into the red zone, but do some strong pulls, to get the teams average speed up, or contribute to holding it up, not a lower threshold or lower average speed.

So, your 8th and 9th least strong TTTers, how do you use their resources most efficiently, how do you expend their efforts. You do not want Matt Lloyd or Chris Anker Sorenson, being a caboose for 55km. You want them contributing to the pace, then intentionally dropping themselves, because they helped up the pace, that they could never sustain for 55km. The only guys who could be a caboose are your GC leaders, like Frank or Andy Schleck. Everyone else has to contribute to the speed to get 5 riders to the line as fast as possible.

This also presumes, 5 riders can always make the finish faster than 9. Because 9 riders who make the finish proves that 4 riders (assuming non-GC riders) who make the finish, have not sufficiently buried themselves, to add to the pace. They have made the finish, when they could have done a stronger turn at 2kmph faster, over the last 3km. Yeah, this is a fine line, and you need to build into this equation, a security or insurance buffer. But in 2008 Millar was either 6th or 7th man, and buried himself 2km out in the Giro. And he was detached at 1km to go, because he added to the finishing speed. Chris Sutton and one other rider, did work in the first 15kms, because Sutton is a very good prologue rider, with ride capacities over 5km, but he does not have the aerobic threshold as a tter. So they used his strength and abilities to aid with the pace early, and then intentionally dropped himself.

Gotta use more science, and master the art. The Oakland A's brought a different MBA perspective to sport, with their strategy. Like Slipstream they would have mastered this discipline where others fail. Some teams can master the TTT cos they are charging. Slipstream are cleaner than the other teams who have dominance in the TTT. See the book Moneyball, by Michael Lewis, for an insight into strategy, and the weak spot.

 

[Angliru]

Same with Jurgen's comments in the media about Cadel. He makes it like it's Cadel's fault for not teaching him and makes that an excuse as he is going to be chucked into the deep end.

In VDB's defense he was simply clarifying statements made that he owed a huge debt to Evans because there was the belief that Evans had taken VDB under his wing and showed him the ropes. VDB only stated that wasn't the case. If you have a more extensive quote from him that supports what you're saying I would love to see it.

 

[auscyclefan94]

No it isn't. It sounds like I am, but all I am doing is deconstructing the TTT. Cadel did his best. The riders did their best. It wasn't good enough to meet prior goals and expectations and Coucke (major douchebag opened his flapper and destroyed team morale) couldn't accept this and let loose his drivel. I was only highlighting Cadel helped create an opportunity for this to happen by not being affirmative and taut.



Its called a contingency plan. Probability analysis can help determine the most likely scenarios and the risk/reward of behaviours. OPL should have been better prepared and after complaining about shortages in support in previous years Cadel should have insisted they were drilled like an F1 pit crew. I'm yet to hear he did. It is very easy to say, he's dropped, lets not waste time. Rabobank had similar stuff ups. Two crashes early on, but they only waited for one rider who fell, Menchov and then got down to business. Hence they lost less time than Silence. Numerous teams lost riders and they were left to fend for themselves. OPL suffer a crash in the back two riders, one falls and then they just sit up. A drilled team would be proactive and take command.



Same thing. He waited too late to power home. He did power at the end, risky psychological wise for team morale, but a risk he had to take given he hadn't pushed on earlier. Basically I am saying, Cadel should have said "stuff Jurgen, he's on his own, we won't waste time." They did waste time for a guy who never caught back up and then lost more time when Vansummeren fell off the back. Cadel's pushing at the end came too late. It was in vain. He needed to be pushing when Jurgen fell. Unfortunate, but its not kindergarten and we hold each others hands.



Given the way you've talked about Silence management, Evans can over ride the DS. He doesn't pedal the course. What happens on the road is dictated by the riders, not the DS. Fair enough Cadel and Lang tried and were stronger than the team. But my point was, is it worth five seconds to send that message to your team. Those guys were already scared of stuffing up for Cadel. I suspect Cadel's reluctance to bluff with the DS and management played a part in his move to BMC. After all, he says they are more laid back. Perhaps they will listen to him and do as he asks.



Agree about Coucke. He's a tool. Mid-tour and he undermines an already fragmented team. He gave Jurgen a reason to act like a git. But Jurgens recent comments only came the other day. Sounded like he wanted everyone to know that Cadel wasn't his mentor. Which is fair enough. He's the new no.1 and has to be on side with management. One or two minor statements about Cadel not being the 'be all to end all' goes down well with the managers who are rubbing their hurt egos.



We're both Australian. I like Hushovd and Cancellara. If they'd have spoken to me like that they'd be pulling my foot out of their rears after the stage. I'd have played it cool on course and lit the fires off the bike. Most Australians can do this or at least threaten to do this. Most people take us seriously enough to know we mean it. Cancellara doesn;t have to budge. Sit on the back of the group and drop them on the hill. It wasn't far ahead. Cancellara was there for the attack from Andy (I called it and it happened) and Hushovd was out for green jersey points. Their excuse about not being able to win was bull and they knew it. Cadel should have told them to use their brains...they were all going to be caught.

Silence not being prepared was not Evans' fault. Lotto's fault. Evans is not going to say they were drilled like a pit crew cos they weren't. I disagree, it was the ds' descision to wait and the ds' descision not to recon the course. They were originally going to do no TTT practise without evans suggesting it. If cadel went against the ds it would of caused confusion and and broken up the team even more. Evans can over ride the ds on a road race as it is easier to talk and communicate compared to a ttt.

 

[Galic Ho]

Silence not being prepared was not Evans' fault. Lotto's fault. Evans is not going to say they were drilled like a pit crew cos they weren't. I disagree, it was the ds' descision to wait and the ds' descision not to recon the course. They were originally going to do no TTT practise without evans suggesting it. If cadel went against the ds it would of caused confusion and and broken up the team even more. Evans can over ride the ds on a road race as it is easier to talk and communicate compared to a ttt.

You really don't get it do you. Fandom at work.

Check the bold. I never said it wasn't the DS decision to wait or to not recon the course. I said a real leader would have had the balls to challenge the DS and at least question his logic on it, given said leaders ambition to win the tour. Everyone knows it was one of a few decisive stages. Was being a complacent individual worth it? No. Cadels race was in tatters and he's now telling all how wrong the team was. By all means you can absoslve him off any blame for his predicament, I will not. You keep making excuses for why Evans did not do specific factors relating to strategy, preparation and race tactics, that any person who had loft Tour ambitions would have seeked to address and remedy. Evans appears to have either done little, or was reluctant to do so. All signs of poor leadership or a confused individual.

I suggested Evans should have been a leader and not a follower, taken charge, lead the troops. He didn't. You make it seem like Cadel crossed his fingers and hoped for the best. A good course in human interaction might be a good start for his time at BMC.

 

[powderpuff]

Evans appears to have either done little, or was reluctant to do so. All signs of poor leadership or a confused individual.

Appears to? Oh, I thought you knew for fact.

 

[Galic Ho]

Appears to? Oh, I thought you knew for fact.

Thats big coming from the poster with the flakey handle who said he knew where Cadel was going but couldn't muster the fortitude and courage to type 'BMC' on the keyboard. Perhaps you should stay away from the assumptions directed at me.

At least if I 'think I know', I can type it without reservation. Man up and quit being a coward. Or better yet, ask Cadel how to do it. You do know him right?

 

[scribe]

His destintation problem has some serious legs.

 

[powderpuff]

Thats big coming from the poster with the flakey handle who said he knew where Cadel was going but couldn't muster the fortitude and courage to type 'BMC' on the keyboard. Perhaps you should stay away from the assumptions directed at me.

At least if I 'think I know', I can type it without reservation. Man up and quit being a coward. Or better yet, ask Cadel how to do it. You do know him right?

Courage, coward?? who needs courage, this forum is a bunch of wannabe's, havebeen's, knowitalls and fans who express their anonymous opinion without fear of consequence. No courage needed there mate, Cadel is not a hero and I am not his fanboy, I respected his request not to tell anyone!

 

[Galic Ho]

Courage, coward?? who needs courage, this forum is a bunch of wannabe's, havebeen's, knowitalls and fans who express their anonymous opinion without fear of consequence. No courage needed there mate, Cadel is not a hero and I am not his fanboy, I respected his request not to tell anyone!

Check the bold. How would Evans have known, unless he is aware of your alias and real identity? As 53x11 said at the time, in all likelyhood to the casual observer, total BS by you. I'm not saying it was, only you know, but it looked that way. It would have taken courage to back up what you were claiming. You have your reasons and I'll leave it at that. Aussiecyclefan didn't hold back, even though it was looking alarmingly like Evans was heading to BMC.

"Wannabe's, havebeen's and knowitalls." So your 'anonymous opinion' is that other posters hide behind their anonymous identities and can be described by the previous three terms. Classy assessment as that describes all of cyberspace, a vast uncharted region that streches to infinity and beyond. Good to hear someone say Cadel isn't a hero. Also seems you haven't elevated onto the pedestal many other have. Very few heroes ride bikes for a living.

New topic. Who thinks after the TDU announcement we'll see some new editions to Cadels racing calender? Maybe the Giro, as a lot here hoped, is now on the menu and he could take a serious crack. I'd like to see it, but don't know what to think with Evans. I was positive he wouldn't race the TDU. Would he really foresake the Giro as a GC ambition, where BMC have an invite, to cling to the hope of a Tour invite?

 

[Anonymous]

New topic. Who thinks after the TDU announcement we'll see some new editions to Cadels racing calender? Maybe the Giro, as a lot here hoped, is now on the menu and he could take a serious crack. I'd like to see it, but don't know what to think with Evans. I was positive he wouldn't race the TDU. Would he really foresake the Giro as a GC ambition, where BMC have an invite, to cling to the hope of a Tour invite?

Good question, as was speculated in the TDU thread, if he did race the TDU, it suggests an early season, and that indicated to me a potential Giro start. Now that he has confirmed TDU, and he also confirmed that BMC have a Giro invite and he said it's up to them to prove they shouldn't be left off the Tour train, then I hope this means he is their headline Giro rider.

Of course they have Ballan for stages, but with Hincapie likely to go to California, I suggest that Cadel does the Giro.

Not an ideal course for him, but as I suggested in the Giro thread, I personally believe he should approach the Giro the same way he approached the Vuelta this year. Be prepared, but not overprepared, and see how it goes. I remember before the Vuelta he said he is riding in prep for the worlds and he said he will assess how he goes about halfway. He had a taste of gold before halfway and decided he could win.

I believe the Giro can be used as a similar strategy. Ride the Giro as training for the Tour. I would not expect him to try and attack or anything like that. Just do the TTs, stay with the favourites on the climbs, and you never know, he may be in Pink at some stage and decide to go for it.

The only indication he will not do the Giro is his firm admission that he wants to win the Tour, but as I said, I hope he does the Giro as he can perform in his second GT of a year in 2007 and 2009. I think a podium in the Giro is achievable, and then he could take that training through to the Tour if BMC get invited.