Campagnolo Electronic Gear System for 2011

[kiwirider]

It has nothing to do with perpetual motion. It has everything do with parasitic collection of energy. ....

And I'm so happy that having exact matching extra everything is so cheap and easy for you. Now, I'll let you guys go grouse about how e-shifting sucks and is the end of the world. Sheesh....

OK, to explain the phrase "perpetual motion machine" ... Such a machine is a physical impossiblity, as it would have to be creating more energy than it is using energy. Although the phrase is usually used in a tongue in cheek sense, your description in your second email of the "recharge as you go system" is getting closer to convincing me that you are in fact expecting Shimano to build one!

And as for your sarcastic dig at me for having "exact matching extra everything" ... It is really quite easy to do - simply look for products from manufacturers who: still sell the spare parts; don't change their specs every five minutes; and build parts to last ... Kinda common sense really - and it truly would be "so easy for you" (to turn your phrase back on yourself)... and I'd suggest that working out how to do that is a much more worthwhile thing for most people to do than lusting after Di2 - or whatever other latest "necessity" various companies tell us all that we need ... Of course, if buying new kit all the time is your recreation or otherwise gives you enjoyment - fill your boots ... just don't expect me to be convinced by all of your arguments of advantages or of the necessity of doing it ....

 

[philcrisp]

And what does Campy have to do with automotive electronics? Are they having the electronics designed and built by an Italian Auto maker? I have seen Japanese cars with poor electronics does that have anything to do with shimano?

Who exactly are they buying in their expertise from? I've seen friends and colleagues whose new Alfa Romeos spend more time in the dealers than on the road with persistent electrical maladies. I've never heard of the same issues with Japanese products. Alfa Romeo and Fiat's Selespeed transmission reduces £30k cars to unusable lumps of metal with depressing frequency.

Of course Campy may have found decent suppliers but my money is staying in my pocket until the early adopters have time to report.

 

[Black Dog]

Who exactly are they buying in their expertise from? I've seen friends and colleagues whose new Alfa Romeos spend more time in the dealers than on the road with persistent electrical maladies. I've never heard of the same issues with Japanese products. Alfa Romeo and Fiat's Selespeed transmission reduces £30k cars to unusable lumps of metal with depressing frequency.

Of course Campy may have found decent suppliers but my money is staying in my pocket until the early adopters have time to report.

Where is your argument here? One thing does not relate to the other; because they are Italian companies. What if Alfa Romeo gets its advice from Honda or Shimano? You are making huge leaps of speculation based on some very thin anecdotal 'evidence'. Oh, on the topic of Japanese electronics in cars...ever heard of Toyota's recent problems with accelerators? They must have had Campagnolo design the accelerator or any Italian company, for that matter, based on your friends problems with Alfa Romeo. Please stop confusing correlation with causation.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Who exactly are they buying in their expertise from? I've seen friends and colleagues whose new Alfa Romeos spend more time in the dealers than on the road with persistent electrical maladies. I've never heard of the same issues with Japanese products. Alfa Romeo and Fiat's Selespeed transmission reduces £30k cars to unusable lumps of metal with depressing frequency.

Of course Campy may have found decent suppliers but my money is staying in my pocket until the early adopters have time to report.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runaw...otas-problem-persists-recall/story?id=9618735

Besides a 'putnameofjapanesecarhere' takes all the moisture out of your mouth. Look in a dictionary under 'bland' or 'boring' and see pictures of toyotas and hondas. Same goes for japanese motorcycles. They haven't had an original design for decades. Look at all the japanese made Ducati lookalikes.

I'd much rather have an Alfa or Ducati than anything 'made in japan', thanks.

 

[philcrisp]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runaw...otas-problem-persists-recall/story?id=9618735

Besides a 'putnameofjapanesecarhere' takes all the moisture out of your mouth. Look in a dictionary under 'bland' or 'boring' and see pictures of toyotas and hondas. Same goes for japanese motorcycles. They haven't had an original design for decades. Look at all the japanese made Ducati lookalikes.

I'd much rather have an Alfa or Ducati than anything 'made in japan', thanks.

Where is your argument here? One thing does not relate to the other; because they are Italian companies. What if Alfa Romeo gets its advice from Honda or Shimano? You are making huge leaps of speculation based on some very thin anecdotal 'evidence'. Oh, on the topic of Japanese electronics in cars...ever heard of Toyota's recent problems with accelerators? They must have had Campagnolo design the accelerator or any Italian company, for that matter, based on your friends problems with Alfa Romeo. Please stop confusing correlation with causation.

Given that neither of you live in markets where Alfa or Fiat sell significant numbers of vehicles, I can assure you that I am not referring to isolated examples. Visit http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/ to start a tour of the misery of Alfa ownership. Toyota's recent accelerator problem is an isolated example. Japanese cars and bikes may be boring but they tend to work even when neglected. Your money, your choice.

Like I said, Campy may have found competent partners. However I've been involved with outsourcing arrangements and its hard enough to make them work with people in the same time zone who speak the same language. It will be much easier for them to work with Italians.

However I did have my tounge at least partly in my cheek.

 

[BroDeal]

Given that neither of you live in markets where Alfa or Fiat sell significant numbers of vehicles, I can assure you that I am not referring to isolated examples. Visit http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/ to start a tour of the misery of Alfa ownership. Toyota's recent accelerator problem is an isolated example. Japanese cars and bikes may be boring but they tend to work even when neglected. Your money, your choice.

And because Ford, GM, and especially Chrysler have a long long history of producing crap, people should not trust components from Chris King and Thomson.

Now if we were talking British electronics this argument might carry some weight.

 

[badboyberty]

From one of Campag's Aussie distributors:

"The ‘Campy Tech Lab’ electronic gruppo had its maiden victory in Saturday’s ‘queen stage’ from McLaren Vale to Willunga, courtesy of Team Movistar’s Francisco Ventoso. Plus the Movistar team won the Overall Team’s Classification prize for the TDU. Not a bad way to start the year for Campagnolo’s most talked about new product."

"

 

[Notso Swift]

Yet another Movistar rider on stage 4 couldn't get out of the big ring and was forced to go 53x25 up checker hill...
So there is a whole world of stories out there
(and yes cables can break as well, just don't get carried away... the Sparrow didn't LOL)

 

[badboyberty]

Yet another Movistar rider on stage 4 couldn't get out of the big ring and was forced to go 53x25 up checker hill...
So there is a whole world of stories out there
(and yes cables can break as well, just don't get carried away... the Sparrow didn't LOL)

Intereting observations of the new Campag Electronic stuff on Cycling Tips, including dropped chains...

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/01/tour-down-under-tech-campy-electronic-shifting-debut-and-shimano-di2-improvements/

It'd be nice to see a real revue. The only team I got to ride with were using Red so I've got no real insights.

 

[kiwirider]

Just read that blog page that BBB posted the link to ... and now I'm all confused ...

Reading the bit about Di2 and it starts out with:
Shamano Di2 electronic shifting has been a glaring success.
Leaving aside the spelling of Shimano (although the Freudian's out there would argue that there's something in that spelling ... Sham-ano ... hmmm ...), that's an easy enough comment to understand.

However, the next paragraph starts out with:
I don’t own Shimano Di2 (I wish I did), however I’ve heard a few small complaints about the front derailleur mis-shifting. I’ve seen a few instances of this happening as well.
... and ends with:
Most of the time it does work perfectly and Shimano did an excellent job at getting it right.

Ok, so this is where my confusion kicks in ...

I've been bagged by a number of people on here for not being able to see the point of electronic shifting. I called it a "solution looking for a problem" right from the start - and have been told by so many people that I am wrong and that it is shifting Nirvana, providing perfect shifts all the time. But now I read this ...!! Electronic shifting that is only "mostly perfect"?!!! Observed "mis-shifts" with Di2???!!!!

So, the only logical conclusion that I - or anyone else who reads comments like that and about the problems that the Movistar guys were having at the TDU - can come to is that electronic shifting is as fallable as cable shifting - just in different ways and for different reasons.

Wow ... now that's progress if I ever saw it!!

(He sits back and waits expectantly for the first of the personal attacks from the tech geeks ... )

 

[Black Dog]

I don't see the need for electronic shifting but so what if the campy version had some bad shifts? It is not for sale yet and they are doing their final testing. Is there no room for error? Will they not be able to fix the problems? I am sure that the early test versions of Di2 had problems too. What is the big deal?

 

[kiwirider]

I don't see the need for electronic shifting but so what if the campy version had some bad shifts? It is not for sale yet and they are doing their final testing. Is there no room for error? Will they not be able to fix the problems? I am sure that the early test versions of Di2 had problems too. What is the big deal?

The really interesting thing in the blog that BBB quotes is that both the pre-production Campag and the two years on the market Di2 seem to have issues around the front derailleur ... (And don't forget that Mektronic had a cable front derailleur ....)

Could the fact this be something to do with the throw required to shift between the chain rings - which is greater than the shift at the rear derailleur between two cogs (and could explain why Di2 only shifts one cog at a time across the cassette??)

The "hidden engineer" part of me would be genuinely interested to know the answer to that one ... (completely independent of any comments in my last post - as I say this is a geunine techy interest ...)

 

[runninboy]

Just read that blog page that BBB posted the link to ... and now I'm all confused ...

Reading the bit about Di2 and it starts out with:
Shamano Di2 electronic shifting has been a glaring success.
Leaving aside the spelling of Shimano (although the Freudian's out there would argue that there's something in that spelling ... Sham-ano ... hmmm ...), that's an easy enough comment to understand.

However, the next paragraph starts out with:
I don’t own Shimano Di2 (I wish I did), however I’ve heard a few small complaints about the front derailleur mis-shifting. I’ve seen a few instances of this happening as well.
... and ends with:
Most of the time it does work perfectly and Shimano did an excellent job at getting it right.

Ok, so this is where my confusion kicks in ...

I've been bagged by a number of people on here for not being able to see the point of electronic shifting. I called it a "solution looking for a problem" right from the start - and have been told by so many people that I am wrong and that it is shifting Nirvana, providing perfect shifts all the time. But now I read this ...!! Electronic shifting that is only "mostly perfect"?!!! Observed "mis-shifts" with Di2???!!!!

So, the only logical conclusion that I - or anyone else who reads comments like that and about the problems that the Movistar guys were having at the TDU - can come to is that electronic shifting is as fallable as cable shifting - just in different ways and for different reasons.

Wow ... now that's progress if I ever saw it!!

(He sits back and waits expectantly for the first of the personal attacks from the tech geeks ... )

I agree with u. I cant believe there are people arguing that electronic can be a significant improvemnt over cable when its the electronic having the most problems. I just dont get problems with my cable system. period. Are you people shifting with your feet or what?
My aversion to this is i see it as a reason to raise prices and eliminate product support.
Just for instance my experience with titanium/aluminum/carbon.
I was on a team sponsored by a titanium frame maker. thousands of dollars for each frame and people were paying that twenty years ago. Then i switched to Giant. They came out with a great aluminum frame that was as light or lighter than most of the titanium frames and at a small fraction of the cost. My old team manager sold his titanium frame and bought the giant aluminum. he agreed with me it was a step up and he made a couple grand to boot. After a couple years of inexpensive aluminum, carbon started popping up at many times the price of the aluminum frames. Same weight roughly, less durability and debateable increase in performance. A good measure of the "improvement" is how many years certain Pro riders stayed on aluminum. When you are getting your bike for free you ride what is best. Not what lasts the longest, or is the cheapest, but the best for you. The best ride, handling, and weight.
So how many frame makers are producing race quality aluminum today , and at what cost?
Improvementsmany times are only to the makers bottom line.
Does anyone really believe electronic shifting will eventually be less expensive than cable systems are now?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The really interesting thing in the blog that BBB quotes is that both the pre-production Campag and the two years on the market Di2 seem to have issues around the front derailleur ... (And don't forget that Mektronic had a cable front derailleur ....)

Could the fact this be something to do with the throw required to shift between the chain rings - which is greater than the shift at the rear derailleur between two cogs (and could explain why Di2 only shifts one cog at a time across the cassette??)

The "hidden engineer" part of me would be genuinely interested to know the answer to that one ... (completely independent of any comments in my last post - as I say this is a geunine techy interest ...)

...and also don't forget that Mektronic could hail UFO's from distant worlds when riding through microwaves.

You're on the money with the "throw" theory. FD's have much higher spring tension than RD's, so the it seems the servos are not up to the task. As Black Dog said give it time and the bugs will be ironed out. I'm going on a trouble free and cost effective cable actuated shifting ride to the Mtns on Fri. No robots!!!

 

[runninboy]

:

Now if we were talking British electronics this argument might carry some weight.

this cracked me up. So true.
I was at my mechanics years ago, he had a Jaguar he was working on. He mentioned the superior workmanship. Showed me how finely balanced the driveshaft was and the great bearing he could spin it just a little and it would keep turning for over a minute.
then he showed me a cooling fan exclusively for the battery terminals . He said "these guys think of everything don't they?" then he smiled
"guess where they put the main computer?"(this was a few years ago)
"they were going for easy serviceabilty so they put it right on top of the radiator"
unbelievable.

 

[BroDeal]

this cracked me up. So true.
I was at my mechanics years ago, he had a Jaguar he was working on. He mentioned the superior workmanship. Showed me how finely balanced the driveshaft was and the great bearing he could spin it just a little and it would keep turning for over a minute.
then he showed me a cooling fan exclusively for the battery terminals . He said "these guys think of everything don't they?" then he smiled
"guess where they put the main computer?"(this was a few years ago)
"they were going for easy serviceabilty so they put it right on top of the radiator"
unbelievable.

The funny thing about Jaguar is that they were bought by Ford...and their quality went up. Contrast that with what happened to Saab and Volvo. A while back I looked into buying a Lotus Elise. They were just coming into the U.S. through regular channels instead of gray market modifications, and they were going to use a Toyota engine. So I was thinking that they might actually work. What scared me off was the postings on various message boards and mailing lists. There seemed to be quite a large number of people who were living with various problems by claiming that one of the charms of owning a British car was fixing it yourself. I immediately had flashbacks to my brother's old MG; he had to keep a tool box in the trunk--err, the boot--at all times.

As far as electric shifting goes, I see these suggestions for putting extra buttons on the tops and in the drops; but how will I use those things in the winter with thick gloves. How the heck did people use those little Mavic buttons with winter gloves?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Breaking news

Just heard through the grapevine minutes ago,... SRAM is going electronic next year.

 

[BroDeal]

Just heard through the grapevine minutes ago,... SRAM is going electronic next year.

You would think they would first fix their BBs, chain rings, chains, cassettes...

That will be one group I'll be staying very far away from. I will not trust Campy's effort for the first year, but at least they have been developing electronic shifting off and on for many years, and Campy has regular quality groups that you don't have to switch out components with other manufacturers to make up for shortcomings. Be very afraid.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

oh yeah, mos def. I don't like the idea of robots doing the shifting for me anyway, it's a trust issue.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'm building up a bike soon with the silver Athena grouppo btw, cables only.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

As a bit of a gadget freak, I own the Di2, Sram Red, Super Record, Record, and DA7900 on various bikes. I'm not actually any good at riding them, but that's a different story.

I do like the Di2. I think the shifting is excellent. But, I really don't see what problem it solves. Really. The Red stuff shifts well (as long as you get rid of the chain, cassette, and cables immediately and replace them with DA, DA, and Yokozuna respectively). Super Record is fantastic, as is Record.

I like Di2, but I just got it because it was a smoking deal on probikekit. Otherwise, $4800 for Di2 is just plain silly.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

As a bit of a gadget freak, I own the Di2, Sram Red, Super Record, Record, and DA7900 on various bikes. I'm not actually any good at riding them, but that's a different story.

I do like the Di2. I think the shifting is excellent. But, I really don't see what problem it solves. Really. The Red stuff shifts well (as long as you get rid of the chain, cassette, and cables immediately and replace them with DA, DA, and Yokozuna respectively). Super Record is fantastic, as is Record.

I like Di2, but I just got it because it was a smoking deal on probikekit. Otherwise, $4800 for Di2 is just plain silly.

Yep, gotta agree. Actually slower to shift than DA. One gear at a time going to a lower gear, push, push, push rather than sweep. More consistent shifting over time for electronic, as long as the battery is charged. Don't think that's worth the $1500+ premium tho.

Once set up, Campagnolo seems the most consistent. 7900/6700/5700 next. sram is awful, picky, finicky to cable drag. Probably why I have warrantied about a dozen sram levers for broken off shift levers.

 

[quackattack]

I find it interesting that people like kiwirider could make the sort of comments he makes about electronic systems when its patently obvious that he hasn't spent anytime riding it. It's akin to writing a book review without reading the book!

i agree. I am trying to read the pros and cons of its use! Wether i should, could or deserve to use this product is blather.

i wonder if any of the pros have used these in racing. I am pretty sure none are using same in this years tdf!

I read a comment about not being able to throw a 3 gear shift. Now using paddle shifters on my car, its amazing how fast it can be done. I am going out to my local bike shop . . . maybe there will be some demos in this area soon!

 

[steelciocc]

i wonder if any of the pros have used these in racing. I am pretty sure none are using same in this years tdf!

The whole Movistar team has been on Campy electronic all year (including the TdF). Look for the cutout on the shift paddles...

 

[quackattack]

thanks for the info. Campy and MS are quiet about this. I guess more will be revealed . . . it it works well. Would be nice if if the TDF crew would discuss it.