Campagnolo Electronic Gear System for 2011

[Granville57]

Di2 battery issues

This seemed like the best thread to throw this into:

http://twitter.com/calebfairly/status/23527097083371521
Tweet from HTC's Caleb Fairly:
"My Di2 ran out of batteries today, and I can't shift! Anybody have one I can borrow before I get one?"

Not sure what we should make of that.
"Ran out of" is a strange way to put it. As well as, "before I get one." Some reason he couldn't just recharge it?

But here's an interesting and closeup look at Shimano Di2
http://www.youtube.com/user/competitivecyclist#p/u/0/WJXKCoxMLnU

 

[Black Dog]

Ran out of charge and does not have a charger. I bet they just get a bunch of pre-charged batteries from the team and exchange then as needed.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

This seemed like the best thread to throw this into:


Not sure what we should make of that.
"Ran out of" is a strange way to put it. As well as, "before I get one." Some reason he couldn't just recharge it?

But here's an interesting and closeup look at Shimano Di2
http://www.youtube.com/user/competitivecyclist#p/u/0/WJXKCoxMLnU

Another example of how spoonfed these pros are. geezzz...get a charger, after the ride, put battery into charger, ride the next day. Or better yet, have 2 batteries, one always in the charger. The stuff HAS and indicator for charge level..pretty colors even he can figure out-green-good, red-bad..

 

[kiwirider]

Ran out of charge and does not have a charger. I bet they just get a bunch of pre-charged batteries from the team and exchange then as needed.

Or the batteries have developed a case of "battery memory" and wont hold enough charge to enable him to use them for anything more than a trip to the corner store for milk!

Not being an electrical engineer - so open for correction from someone who is - but I was always told that it is best to completely drain a rechargeable battery before recharging it, otherwise with each successive charge the battery holds less and less. Despite improvements in battery technology, it's still a big factor (as anyone with a laptop, cellphone, portable house phone or iPod knows ...)

I'd suggest that a battery in an electronic groupset would be a prime cotender for developing a case of battery memory - how often do you think anyone ends a ride on electronic shifters with them just running completely out of juice?

On a related topic, I would be interested to know if anyone has done a test on the discharge rate on those batteries over time ... And by that I mean an objective test - although observations from high mileage forum members would still be interesting to hear ...

 

[Granville57]

What's funny to me is, the more I think about that quote,"My Di2 ran out of batteries today, and I can't shift!" I realize that it very well might be the first time in well over a hundred years a bicycle evolution that those words were ever spoken (or tweeted, as it were ).

Another example of how spoonfed these pros are. geezzz...get a charger...

Well that was my first thought: They don't give the riders a charger along with a bike that apparently requires one?

Personally, I don't ever want to hear one single excuse from a pro rider in any race that their chances at a win were sacrificed due to a "battery issue." It would be a PR nightmare for any company involved.

 

[Fieldsprint]

Someone's got to be the first detractor - today it looks like it'll be my turn ...

Don't worry kiwirider, you're in good company.

I was around when clipless pedals were introduced. There were detractors. Even Sean Kelly held out for a long time.

I was around when index shifting was introduced. There were detractors. It took Campy forever and a day to get something remotely close to Dura-Ace.

I was around when STI was introduced. There were detractor. Anybody else remember how Bridgestone bikes tried to "sell us" on the advantages of bar end shifters?

I was around when Kestrel introduced the first carbon frame. There were detractors. Hell, outliers still claim "steel is real."

The list goes on and on, but you get the point; anytime something new is introduced there is small, but vocal, group of people asking why? why? why?

But, in the end, the market will dictate what the people want. Isn't that right, Bridgestone?

 

[Black Dog]

Don't worry kiwirider, you're in good company.

I was around when clipless pedals were introduced. There were detractors. Even Sean Kelly held out for a long time.

I was around when index shifting was introduced. There were detractors. It took Campy forever and a day to get something remotely close to Dura-Ace.

I was around when STI was introduced. There were detractor. Anybody else remember how Bridgestone bikes tried to "sell us" on the advantages of bar end shifters?

I was around when Kestrel introduced the first carbon frame. There were detractors. Hell, outliers still claim "steel is real."

The list goes on and on, but you get the point; anytime something new is introduced there is small, but vocal, group of people asking why? why? why?

But, in the end, the market will dictate what the people want. Isn't that right, Bridgestone?

It should be the market that decides but it has become the marketers that are deciding about some tech. There are so many BS claims being made that are never called out and people not knowing better are buying into it.

 

[kiwirider]

Don't worry kiwirider, you're in good company.

I was around when clipless pedals were introduced. There were detractors. Even Sean Kelly held out for a long time.

I was around when index shifting was introduced. There were detractors. It took Campy forever and a day to get something remotely close to Dura-Ace.

I was around when STI was introduced. There were detractor. Anybody else remember how Bridgestone bikes tried to "sell us" on the advantages of bar end shifters?

I was around when Kestrel introduced the first carbon frame. There were detractors. Hell, outliers still claim "steel is real."

The list goes on and on, but you get the point; anytime something new is introduced there is small, but vocal, group of people asking why? why? why?

But, in the end, the market will dictate what the people want. Isn't that right, Bridgestone?

I get your point - which is that of all of those things you list, only integrated shifters (sorry, I'm a Campag user so prefer Ergo to STI) are an unequivocal forward step. Every other one has some level of question mark over the true benefits that they offer over what went before or - in the case of indexed down tube shifters - was completely unnecessary! That's what you're saying isn't it?

Now, if you'd chosen clipless on the dirt - you could've made a better case ... that was a huge step (bad pun) forward!

And as for the benefits of carbon - talk to a single speeder or a touring cyclist and tell them that steel has no place ... ask Tim Johnson how he could win the US 'cross champs for the third time in '09 on his "inferior" alloy bike - or ask Petacchi why he rode an alloy bike when the rest of his team was on carbon ...

So, lets just recognise that the changes that we have each seen are definitely "change", but that the level of "progress" associated with each one isn't quite as clear cut as marketing and gung ho reviews (which are often just rehashed marketing materials) would like you to believe ...

Like Black Dog says - marketing departments rule, not markets ...

 

[philcrisp]

58 Posts

Guys! 58 posts and nobody has made the point about Italian automotive electrics and their distinctly spotty reputation. It may be worth waiting to see if Campy have that licked before investing.

 

[Black Dog]

Guys! 58 posts and nobody has made the point about Italian automotive electrics and their distinctly spotty reputation. It may be worth waiting to see if Campy have that licked before investing.

And what does Campy have to do with automotive electronics? Are they having the electronics designed and built by an Italian Auto maker? I have seen Japanese cars with poor electronics does that have anything to do with shimano?

 

[Milessio]

I would think that the performance of their integrated cycle computer would be a better indicator than how well Ferrari electrics work?

 

[runninboy]

Don't worry kiwirider, you're in good company.

I was around when clipless pedals were introduced. There were detractors. Even Sean Kelly held out for a long time.

I was around when index shifting was introduced. There were detractors. It took Campy forever and a day to get something remotely close to Dura-Ace.

I was around when STI was introduced. There were detractor. Anybody else remember how Bridgestone bikes tried to "sell us" on the advantages of bar end shifters?

I was around when Kestrel introduced the first carbon frame. There were detractors. Hell, outliers still claim "steel is real."

The list goes on and on, but you get the point; anytime something new is introduced there is small, but vocal, group of people asking why? why? why?

But, in the end, the market will dictate what the people want. Isn't that right, Bridgestone?

Some of the things u mentioned were definitely inferior when they came out. Remember early Look pedals? cumbersome & heavy nothing worse when you couldnt get it to release or when you were spinning like a madman winding up for a sprint and you came out of your pedal?

Never liked STI i prefer Ergo. I am still running some 8 speed Sachs and it shifts smooth everytime never had a missed shift in a race or ride must have close to 40,000 miles on 3 sets. Now using them for cyclocross work great.
Kestrel, i had a 4000 given to me in 1989. That thing felt sweet. but when i rode everyonce in awhile i word hear a little"ping" it was the fibers snapping. after two years that thing was a noodle.
Funny you dont mention things that didnt stand the test of time
Mavic Zap was failure
Scott Drop ins and split second bars
Topline cranks titanium =indestructable oooops broke another arm....
took years to get titanium frames right
what were those god awful titec something or other?

the bottom line is personal preference not "superiority" and the problem is sometimes equipment that is not "inferior" is fazed out because a manufacturer cannot support everything they make.

So some of us look at electronic and wonder what will eventually be sacrificed for something of questionable value?

That is what is frustrating, pay more money for something you dont want or need Because eventually that is all we will support. Planned obsolescence is what alot of us see.

 

[simo1733]

If cyclists weren't stupid enough to buy the crap, no one would build it. I mean, do you really think an 11-sp cluster is an improvement over a 10-sp?

shimano has a patent for a 14spd casette.

 

[Marva32]

Scott Drop ins and split second bars

I miss my Scott Drop Ins

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Or the batteries have developed a case of "battery memory" and wont hold enough charge to enable him to use them for anything more than a trip to the corner store for milk!

Not being an electrical engineer - so open for correction from someone who is - but I was always told that it is best to completely drain a rechargeable battery before recharging it, otherwise with each successive charge the battery holds less and less. Despite improvements in battery technology, it's still a big factor (as anyone with a laptop, cellphone, portable house phone or iPod knows ...)
)

The procedure you list is for NiCad technology. Di2 runs on lithium-ion, which has no such memory issues. Virtually any new battery product brought to market is going to use LiIon batteries. Campy surely will.

The battery "problem" will soon be solved with systems that charge themselves as you ride. You'll just need enough charge in the system to get going and the riding will take care of the rest. The battery life on a fully charged Di2 system is huge. If someone's having dead battery issues, it's user error.

I'm actually looking forward to upgrading to electronic shifting. It's a technology that will save me time, money, and hassles. I'll LOVE swapping rear wheels and allowing my shifters realign automatically with the touch of a button. I won't miss cables and adjuster screws a bit.

 

[Black Dog]

I'm actually looking forward to upgrading to electronic shifting. It's a technology that will save me time, money, and hassles. I'll LOVE swapping rear wheels and allowing my shifters realign automatically with the touch of a button. I won't miss cables and adjuster screws a bit.

Only a cyclist can argue that spending a lot of money for kit will save them money.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The procedure you list is for NiCad technology. Di2 runs on lithium-ion, which has no such memory issues. Virtually any new battery product brought to market is going to use LiIon batteries. Campy surely will.

The battery "problem" will soon be solved with systems that charge themselves as you ride. You'll just need enough charge in the system to get going and the riding will take care of the rest. The battery life on a fully charged Di2 system is huge. If someone's having dead battery issues, it's user error.

I'm actually looking forward to upgrading to electronic shifting. It's a technology that will save me time, money, and hassles. I'll LOVE swapping rear wheels and allowing my shifters realign automatically with the touch of a button. I won't miss cables and adjuster screws a bit.

I guess you are talking about Di3 or 4 then, Still gotta set limit screws on Di2, set first position, mid cog adjust. Plus not cheap, won't be cheap, even Ui2(ultegra electric) won't be cheap.

 

[kiwirider]

I guess you are talking about Di3 or 4 then, Still gotta set limit screws on Di2, set first position, mid cog adjust. Plus not cheap, won't be cheap, even Ui2(ultegra electric) won't be cheap.

They've also obviously never seen a mechanic do a rear wheel change in a road race - as they'd know that you can change wheels without having to reset your rear derailleur with the current cable systems ...

My secret to not having to constantly adjust derailleurs is to use the same Campag hubs and the same cassette gearing on each of my sets of wheels ... Not only does this make swapping wheels easy, but it also makes maintenance simple - both because of their reliability and because I can use the same spares on each set ...

The recharging as you go thing sounds suspiciously close to a perpetual motion machine to my way of thinking. (And, I have to say that ABK's response overall sounds suspicously like Shimano marketing ...) Yes, I know that there's a heap of kinetic energy that can be harnessed in the various rotating parts of bikes, but is it really enough to put a meaningful charge into a battery that is simultaneously discharging (ie., it is charging while the gears are being used)? That said, I'll stand to be corrected if we see anything like that - or if someone can demonstrate the physics to me (like I said before, I'm not an electrical engineer, so claim no expertise in this area) ...

Oh, and thanks to ABK for setting me straight on the NiCad/Li-ion point ... I think that the effect that I was trying to allude to was in reality partly that and partly just simple battery degradation over time - but I didn't realise with Li-ion that the only effect was degradation ... So, I'l recast my question in terms of what sort of degradation effects are seen with the batteries. (And it is a genuine question, I'm not trolling for a chance to bag the electronic systems.)

 

[Notso Swift]

If you charge on reciprocating parts you are increasing resistance!

On that basis I do not see it happening on race systems in a hurry

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Only a cyclist can argue that spending a lot of money for kit will save them money.

Who said it was going to be "a lot" of money? The price will come down considerably and e-shifting will be the new normal. Cable shifters will become expensive, boutique items marketed to retro urban hipsters.

I know that this forum is cycling's foremost curmudgeon refuge, but the drumbeat against e-shifting is like the 20 year old carping about cell phones never catching on.

 

[runninboy]

Who said it was going to be "a lot" of money? The price will come down considerably and e-shifting will be the new normal. Cable shifters will become expensive, boutique items marketed to retro urban hipsters.

I know that this forum is cycling's foremost curmudgeon refuge, but the drumbeat against e-shifting is like the 20 year old carping about cell phones never catching on.

Oh please what a terrible analogy
what exactly are the benefits of electronic shifting again?
I have heard nothing of significant value. I don't "miss" shifts, replace my cables every once in awhile, very rarely have to adjust anything.
once i pulled out an old bike from storage at my parents house to do a race. Didn't have time to tune it, during the race just played with the barrel adjusters a little and no problems.
That is a bike that sat for two years.
What exactly are you doing that is causing you some much grief with manual shifting that electronic would be an improvement?
And if its not gonna be alot of money i will give you 50 bucks and you can send me the new electronic shimano grouppo since u sound like a shimano rep.


With cell phones i could see the curmudgeon aspect as it is kind of hard to take a landline with you anywhere. Once you get a couple miles away from home the cord would always get knotted

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

They've also obviously never seen a mechanic do a rear wheel change in a road race - as they'd know that you can change wheels without having to reset your rear derailleur with the current cable systems ...

My secret to not having to constantly adjust derailleurs is to use the same Campag hubs and the same cassette gearing on each of my sets of wheels ... Not only does this make swapping wheels easy, but it also makes maintenance simple - both because of their reliability and because I can use the same spares on each set ...

The recharging as you go thing sounds suspiciously close to a perpetual motion machine to my way of thinking. (And, I have to say that ABK's response overall sounds suspicously like Shimano marketing ...) Yes, I know that there's a heap of kinetic energy that can be harnessed in the various rotating parts of bikes, but is it really enough to put a meaningful charge into a battery that is simultaneously discharging (ie., it is charging while the gears are being used)? That said, I'll stand to be corrected if we see anything like that - or if someone can demonstrate the physics to me (like I said before, I'm not an electrical engineer, so claim no expertise in this area) ...

Oh, and thanks to ABK for setting me straight on the NiCad/Li-ion point ... I think that the effect that I was trying to allude to was in reality partly that and partly just simple battery degradation over time - but I didn't realise with Li-ion that the only effect was degradation ... So, I'l recast my question in terms of what sort of degradation effects are seen with the batteries. (And it is a genuine question, I'm not trolling for a chance to bag the electronic systems.)

It has nothing to do with perpetual motion. It has everything do with parasitic collection of energy. You just collect little bits of energy here and there from multiple sources and pump it into one "storage tank." The ICs and transducers to make it happen are off the shelf stuff. Google it if you don't believe me. FWIW, A couple magnets here and there and a pickup coil aren't going to slow anyone down substantially. This isn't a hub generator I'm talking about. You can also use the vibration of the bike as a generation source. Back it up with a small lithium cell and maybe a small solar cell or two, and the recharging issue will cease to be an issue.

And I'm so happy that having exact matching extra everything is so cheap and easy for you. Now, I'll let you guys go grouse about how e-shifting sucks and is the end of the world. Sheesh....

 

[runninboy]

It has nothing to do with perpetual motion. It has everything do with parasitic collection of energy. You just collect little bits of energy here and there from multiple sources and pump it into one "storage tank." The ICs and transducers to make it happen are off the shelf stuff. Google it if you don't believe me. FWIW, A couple magnets here and there and a pickup coil aren't going to slow anyone down substantially. This isn't a hub generator I'm talking about. You can also use the vibration of the bike as a generation source. Back it up with a small lithium cell and maybe a small solar cell or two, and the recharging issue will cease to be an issue.

Ok if i take your bike and shave a few grams off it and hand it back can you tell me if it is lighter than if i did not?
Doubtful and yet every component maker tells you when they shave a couple of grams even though it would not substantiallyaffect your ride.
When you use terms like that would electronic"substantially" improve your ride quality? In what way please? Is it maybe a point of diminishing returns. Is this an improvment for the rider or the manufacturer?
As in we will boost sales?

 

[Black Dog]

Who said it was going to be "a lot" of money? The price will come down considerably and e-shifting will be the new normal. Cable shifters will become expensive, boutique items marketed to retro urban hipsters.

I know that this forum is cycling's foremost curmudgeon refuge, but the drumbeat against e-shifting is like the 20 year old carping about cell phones never catching on.

It is a lot of money right now. I am not dealing with predictions just facts. It probably will get cheaper, but your claim of saving money now is simply fallacious. Even at the same price as cables how will it save money? How much time will it really save?

I have ridden Di2 and it is very nice. But only being able to shift one gear at a time in both directions is not an improvement over what is out there all ready. Beyond that it is not really any better than Campy, SRAM, or Shimano cable systems. It is a solution to a problem that really does not exist. I am not against it at all, it is not worth the money because it really does not offer a real improvement over what is available at 1/2 the price.

 

[the student]

Lets say electric shifting is just a fashion item for the cyclists who want to show, or the ones that want the latest of equipment.
We call things improvement without offering real improvement on performance, although it does improve your show off biking skills.