Can a clean rider beat dopers? - The poll

[red_flanders]

sarcasm or really no doubts about Stannard?

Despite some relatively poor tactics from Epix or whatever they are called this year, I found such a ride extremely suspicious. I have never, ever seen a rider, no matter how strong win in such a tactical situation. He was clearly stronger than the others, chasing down attack repeatedly, alone.

One mitigating factor would be that it's February and he may be peaking for these very early races. If he (and Sky generally) continues to dominate like this I would find it damning.

So yeah, sarcasm. But to be fair I only find it highly suspicious, not convincing.

 

[Discgear]

Yes, when they are from Norway!

The 90s in XCskiing, skating, Nordic combination or even certain distances in track & fields and of course cycling showed that. Hence no Norwegians are juiced by definition - drunk Driving excluded - a clean driver can beat a doped.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I must say I dont dislike TailwindHome but he is on a [t]roll the last few days. It is getting a bit annoying to be absolutely Frank.

Stannard was like Iglinsky in LBL 2012 yesterday. Perhaps he had a great finishing bottle?

 

[blackcat]

I must say I dont dislike TailwindHome but he is on a [t]roll the last few days. It is getting a bit annoying to be absolutely Frank.

Stannard was like Iglinsky in LBL 2012 yesterday. Perhaps he had a great finishing bottle?

it was only Het Volk. The big boys are yet to come out to play.

wait for Harelbeke when Tommeke goes up against Cancellara and is fully primed. The only thing against this, if I think he has yet to win a Het Volk, and wanted to, so yesterday was a good opportunity to, and he did not have the legs reading the race report.

 

[ralphbert]

Despite some relatively poor tactics from Epix or whatever they are called this year, I found such a ride extremely suspicious. I have never, ever seen a rider, no matter how strong win in such a tactical situation. He was clearly stronger than the others, chasing down attack repeatedly, alone.

One mitigating factor would be that it's February and he may be peaking for these very early races. If he (and Sky generally) continues to dominate like this I would find it damning.

So yeah, sarcasm. But to be fair I only find it highly suspicious, not convincing.

Errrrr, you did you notice Stannard sat on for 35k while the QS boys pulled hard to keep Vanmarcke at bay?

That is quite a mitigating factor imo.

Lets see how Stannard goes against Canc when he spools up. As powerful as a jumbo jet and just as subtle.

 

[red_flanders]

Errrrr, you did you notice Stannard sat on for 35k while the QS boys pulled hard to keep Vanmarcke at bay?

That is quite a mitigating factor imo.

Lets see how Stannard goes against Canc when he spools up. As powerful as a jumbo jet and just as subtle.

Yes, I did. He still alternately chased down and dropped 3 top-flight (likely doped) riders at the end of a 200 km race.

You don't get to the front of that race without spending any energy.

It is a mitigating factor. It remains that I have never seen, in 35 years of watching bike racing, someone win from a 3 on 1 at the end of a major race. Ever.

It was an unbelievable performance in my view. To think someone could do this clean seems incredibly unlikely. I also have no reason to think he did it clean. Is there some reason I should look at this differently? Has he been some incredible world beating rider who has a reputation in the sport (not among fans of Sky) as being clean? Is he some big champion who outclasses the riders against whom he was riding yesterday? No.

We'll see how his season goes. If this is an aberration then it becomes less suspicious, he could have been peaking when others are looking to find form. Still very suspicious, but less so than it looks now. If he is still in form in April, then I will likely be convinced that he has stepped up the program.

 

[Benotti69]

Errrrr, you did you notice Stannard sat on for 35k while the QS boys pulled hard to keep Vanmarcke at bay?

That is quite a mitigating factor imo.

Lets see how Stannard goes against Canc when he spools up. As powerful as a jumbo jet and just as subtle.

Stannard doesn't get a chance for the rest of the season. Back to the domestique duties.

But RedFlanders nailed it. You dont drop 3 Etixx riders after a gruelling 200km race in Feb on bread and water.

 

[9000ft]

How else can you explain Saint Greg? He's the only one though.

 

[ebandit]

trump

of course clean riders can beat dopers...................just less likely

just as dopers can fail.................due to poor tactics......dodgy gear etc

Mark L

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, I did. He still alternately chased down and dropped 3 top-flight (likely doped) riders at the end of a 200 km race.

You don't get to the front of that race without spending any energy.

It is a mitigating factor. It remains that I have never seen, in 35 years of watching bike racing, someone win from a 3 on 1 at the end of a major race. Ever.

It was an unbelievable performance in my view. To think someone could do this clean seems incredibly unlikely. I also have no reason to think he did it clean. Is there some reason I should look at this differently? Has he been some incredible world beating rider who has a reputation in the sport (not among fans of Sky) as being clean? Is he some big champion who outclasses the riders against whom he was riding yesterday? No.

We'll see how his season goes. If this is an aberration then it becomes less suspicious, he could have been peaking when others are looking to find form. Still very suspicious, but less so than it looks now. If he is still in form in April, then I will likely be convinced that he has stepped up the program.

cunego won appenino from a 4-1-1 group a few years ago, though thats a smaller race and against easier opponents

 

[TailWindHome]

I have no idea what any of that post is supposed to mean.

Bull.

You've given an example of a rider who the forum would consider to have won clean.

I've pointed you to the point in the Dan Martin discussion where the forum turns against him following just such a win on the basis that he beat assumed dopers.

You then pretend not to get the point, but seemed to get it enough to include it in your case to have me banned when you ran to moderators thread.

That's pathetic.

 

[ralphbert]

It was an unbelievable performance in my view. To think someone could do this clean seems incredibly unlikely.

Fair enough, I don't disagree that it is an incredible performance if cleans.

 

[The Hitch]

Bull.

You've given an example of a rider who the forum would consider to have won clean.

I've pointed you to the point in the Dan Martin discussion where the forum turns against him following just such a win on the basis that he beat assumed dopers.

You then pretend not to get the point, but seemed to get it enough to include it in your case to have me banned when you ran to moderators thread.

That's pathetic.

No. You pointed at a thread where some posters say Dan Martin doped, and some posters say he didn't.

What's pathetic is your try to pass that off as the clinic arguing martin is a doper.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Bull.

You've given an example of a rider who the forum would consider to have won clean.

I've pointed you to the point in the Dan Martin discussion where the forum turns against him following just such a win on the basis that he beat assumed dopers.

You then pretend not to get the point, but seemed to get it enough to include it in your case to have me banned when you ran to moderators thread.

That's pathetic.

"The forum" does no such thing in the thread you link to.

Your argument has been, is, and will apparently continue to be, garbage. Do you even have a point?

 

[The Hitch]

the entire forum must also believe lemond doped, since there is a thread about him. That's how it works, right twh?

 

[TailWindHome]

the entire forum must also believe lemond doped, since there is a thread about him. That's how it works, right twh?

Yes Hitch.
You are correct.
That's how it works

Clearly I was wrong when I said that forum logic was that a clean rider couldn't win a race against assumed dopers.

This has been proven beyond a doubt as 67% (at present) of the forum believe that Bassons was clean when he was gifted a stage of a 1 week tour 15 years ago.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Yes Hitch.
You are correct.
That's how it works

Clearly I was wrong when I said that forum logic was that a clean rider couldn't win a race against assumed dopers.

This has been proven beyond a doubt as 67% (at present) of the forum believe that Bassons was clean when he was gifted a stage of a 1 week tour 15 years ago.

Or, more likely, the question was completely irrelevant

 

[movingtarget]

It's a complicated question. Different talents, different physiologies, different personalities. In a one day race I think it's possible. If the top 10 GT riders in the world did not dope would they still be competitive. I say yes. But in saying that, not doping creates too much doubt for some as sport is about winning regularly. In GTs doping and recovery go together. It's interesting that some of Armstrong's adversaries believe he still could have won the Tour or still would have been the strongest in the Tour without the drugs. Does not necessarily mean he have won the overall without doping. Which indicates to me that there are benefits in doping but they have their limits.

You hear the term "natural talent" a lot in sport, I think some people do have or develop physiological advantages but not everyone converts it into winning regularly. I suppose how much benefit drugs give is hard to define. Some bodies probably react better than others to doping.

If everyone one was a on a level playing field and doping was non existent I still think many of the same riders would be riding in the top echelons of the sport and winning. Like someone once said, "you can't turn a mule into a racehorse." Although I have seen some good racehorses that looked like mules. The trouble is some racehorses want to be superstars or just hate being beaten ever.

 

[ralphbert]

It's interesting that some of Armstrong's adversaries believe he still could have won the Tour or still would have been the strongest in the Tour without the drugs.

If by "interesting" you mean "complete lies" then yes I agree.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Yes Hitch.
You are correct.
That's how it works

Clearly I was wrong when I said that forum logic was that a clean rider couldn't win a race against assumed dopers.

This has been proven beyond a doubt as 67% (at present) of the forum believe that Bassons was clean when he was gifted a stage of a 1 week tour 15 years ago.

 

[red_flanders]

cunego won appenino from a 4-1-1 group a few years ago, though thats a smaller race and against easier opponents

A different tactical situation and an uphill finish. Not comparable.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It is a mitigating factor. It remains that I have never seen, in 35 years of watching bike racing, someone win from a 3 on 1 at the end of a major race. Ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08b4OWuPxYk#t=1739

I think Zulle counted for two on that day.

http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/ritfiche.php?ritid=10413#ucira

22 Chris Boardman (gbr) GAN
107 Tyler Hamilton (usa) US Postal Service

 

[del1962]

I doubt this victory by Bassons tells you a lot, it was a stage race he was irrelevent to the GC so he was let go, the Peloton could have been taking it easy that day, if Bassons had won a one day race or was a GC contender it would be a much more interesting question.

 

[Netserk]

I doubt this victory by Bassons tells you a lot, it was a stage race he was irrelevent to the GC so he was let go, the Peloton could have been taking it easy that day, if Bassons had won a one day race or was a GC contender it would be a much more interesting question.

It doesn't matter one bit. The question is about whether or not the clinic majority thinks that it is possible to win as a clean rider against dopers. The majority indeed thinks so.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

http://www.wvcycling.com/en/race/109/result/1992/8//

http://www.wvcycling.com/en/race/45/result/1995/

Even Vandenbroucke said he pulled this one off without EPO:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/ritfiche.php?ritid=28446