Can a clean rider beat dopers? - The poll

[Benotti69]

http://www.wvcycling.com/en/race/109/result/1992/8//

http://www.wvcycling.com/en/race/45/result/1995/

Even Vandenbroucke said he pulled this one off without EPO:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/ritfiche.php?ritid=28446

The body and muscles develops a memory so Vandenbroucke took so much that he cant have been considered clean in any race. He may not have taken anything on the day of the race but probably loaded up prior to it.

 

[Benotti69]

It doesn't matter one bit. The question is about whether or not the clinic majority thinks that it is possible to win as a clean rider against dopers. The majority indeed thinks so.

The question is whether Bassons, a clean rider, was gifted a stage, which discounts the idea that he won it on huge talent that beat less talent on dope.

 

[Netserk]

The question is whether Bassons, a clean rider, was gifted a stage, which discounts the idea that he won it on huge talent that beat less talent on dope.

I never said that huge clean talent could outpower doped lesser talent. I said that he is proof that under certain circumstances a clean rider can win even against dopers.

Was he clean? Yes.
Did he win? Yes.
Was his opponents dopers? Yes.
Does anything else matter regarding the simple statement that a clean rider can beat dopers? No.

Ergo a clean rider can win against dopers. QED.

 

[del1962]

It doesn't matter one bit. The question is about whether or not the clinic majority thinks that it is possible to win as a clean rider against dopers. The majority indeed thinks so.

it really is just an exercise in pedentary though.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

The body and muscles develops a memory so Vandenbroucke took so much that he cant have been considered clean in any race. He may not have taken anything on the day of the race but probably loaded up prior to it.

It was his first year as a pro ... probably not clean anyway, but I'm willing to believe he was quite clean compared to a whole lot of others at the time

 

[Netserk]

it really is just an exercise in pedentary though.

It is about establishing whether or not the clinic majority thinks it's possible to win as a clean rider against dopers or not. Call it whatever you want, that is what it is.

 

[del1962]

It is about establishing whether or not the clinic majority thinks it's possible to win as a clean rider against dopers or not. Call it whatever you want, that is what it is.

I will call it what I like which is pedantry a form of trollkraft

It doesnt in anyway address the bigger picture though.

 

[Benotti69]

I never said that huge clean talent could outpower doped lesser talent. I said that he is proof that under certain circumstances a clean rider can win even against dopers.

Was he clean? Yes.
Did he win? Yes.
Was his opponents dopers? Yes.
Does anything else matter regarding the simple statement that a clean rider can beat dopers? No.

Ergo a clean rider can win against dopers. QED.

If you want to ignore how Bassons won then yes.

It is about establishing whether or not the clinic majority thinks it's possible to win as a clean rider against dopers or not. Call it whatever you want, that is what it is.

Bassons stated that he was gifted the stage. That then implies that a clean win can only be a gifted win with some exceptions.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I never said that huge clean talent could outpower doped lesser talent. I said that he is proof that under certain circumstances a clean rider can win even against dopers.

Was he clean? Yes.
Did he win? Yes.
Was his opponents dopers? Yes.
Does anything else matter regarding the simple statement that a clean rider can beat dopers? No.

Ergo a clean rider can win against dopers. QED.

I thought Armstrong was the only one doping in 1999?

 

[Netserk]

If you want to ignore how Bassons won then yes.



Bassons stated that he was gifted the stage. That then implies that a clean win can only be a gifted win with some exceptions.

If the discussion was about whether or not clean riders can beat dopers by being stronger than them, then you'd have a point, but it's not. Ofc it doesn't matter how Bassons won. He won and that is all that counts.

The thread title is "Can a clean rider beat dopers? - The poll". Being gifted the stage or not is irrelevant to the question. Being the strongest rider on the day or not is also irrelevant to the question. It is without any conditions. Can a rider who is clean win over others who are not? Yes or no.

If you want you can make a different poll about whether or not a clean rider can beat dopers by being the strongest on the day. But that isn't the question in this thread.

 

[The_Captain]

Yes. Of course they can. There are too many variables involved in a race, and doping (and even rider performance) is only one of those. Of course the odds change depending on the type of race and how important tactics are.

But it also discounts the type of athlete who would dope. Maybe they're doping because they're not that great, or they're lazy, and their drugs allow them to take a shortcut to improved performance, but nevertheless one that can be overcome by a more talented athlete with a harder work ethic for example.

Tactics are clearly a huge factor on results. If they weren't then the best athlete would win all the time.

What about blood transfusions? When the blood has been taken out the performance will suffer giving an edge to the clean rider.

 

[Benotti69]

If the discussion was about whether or not clean riders can beat dopers by being stronger than them, then you'd have a point, but it's not. Ofc it doesn't matter how Bassons won. He won and that is all that counts.

The thread title is "Can a clean rider beat dopers? - The poll". Being gifted the stage or not is irrelevant to the question. Being the strongest rider on the day or not is also irrelevant to the question. It is without any conditions. Can a rider who is clean win over others who are not? Yes or no.

If you want you can make a different poll about whether or not a clean rider can beat dopers by being the strongest on the day. But that isn't the question in this thread.

Well if you dont want to look deeper into it and learn something. Fine. Your poll.

 

[Benotti69]

As doping is part of the fabric of cycling, clean riders will be ostracised by those doping. As Bassons was called Mr Clean, not a term of affection, riders who try and race clean will not be welcomed.

Bassons did not have many friends on the teams he rode for as he didn't dope.

He left the peloton after a short career as he was not welcome.

What has changed?

Where are clean riders welcomed? Please dont quote Garmin.

This is a small sport. Those who see themselves above the doping would not be welcome.

Obree talks about not being believed when he was asked what PEDs he used to break the hour. The derided him that he did it clean.

I also dont see DS investing in riders who can only perform to a certain level as they wont take PEDs. Why not get a rider who has "crazy adaptive physiology" on the current PEDS?