Can Contador just shut up and go away?

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offbyone said:
You have to come to reality, if he got caught for clen than more than likely he just got away with everything else in his program.
The same program that Andy Schleck was on. So you take the Tour title from one doper and give it to another. Yeah, that's how the war on drugs will be won.


offbyone said:
Contador has to be treated just like any other doper.
No he does not. Preferential treatment is the name of the game in all walks of life, as it is at the UCI. Have you not been following along here? Just because you and many others believe that things SHOULD be one way, they are in reality another way.

Did you see how Pat McQuaid tried to keep Contador's test result quiet until the matter was exposed by a German journalist?

Welcome to pro cycling, rotten to the core.


offbyone said:
If it was lance I am sure you would say it is enough to take his tour title. So don't be a hypocrite.
Unlike you I can see the shades of gray that life is lived in. If you can't tell the difference between Armstrong and Contador, it is beyond me why you're even commenting on what I wrote.

As for hypocrisy, you've got to be kidding me. The whole stinking process at the UCI is a showcase for hypocrisy. And you suddenly expect the rotten crew that control cycling to suddenly sprout angels' wings and do what's right? My good man you are off by more than just one of you believe this.


offbyone said:
I understand it is difficult to accept when you are the captain of his fan club. In a couple years he will have his chance to come back clean and show us if he can still do it.
Hey Nostradamus, the Spanish Federation aren't going to give their national cycling hero a two-year ban for a sand grain of clenbutarol. And the UCI won't do a thing about it either.

I don't make these crooked rules, but I understand how things work. Don't blame me for that, I have nothing to do with how the UCI navigates it's pirate ship.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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JPM London said:
I'm not going to say I'm convinced he's innocent, but I'm far from convinced he's guilty as well - and that's the key problem Berzin is pointing to about the clen positive; that it's not very significant on it's own (and forget the plastic, cos no official party has confirmed it and so it's only rumour for the moment).

If all they have actually ever found in him is a tiny bit of clen, then this case will not do anything for fight against doping other than underline the situation that we have a bunch of people firing in the dark against anything that moves cos they need to show they're doing something but have no idea what and how to do it. Oh yeah, for the same reason we can only fire at the famous riders if somebody hears about it...

MAYBE the reason he feels he's lacking support from Astana -and complains about money not paid - is because he's actually innocent. Just maybe...

I haven't heard him say "I never tested positive", what I have heard though is him saying he's never doped, never done anything wrong and that he therefore feels very disillusioned with the whole situation and most of the time feels like hanging up his boots (or bike as it may be). Incidentally to my mind the last bit is NOT to "threaten that if he gets suspended he will stop".

To be honest I don't think the case is very clear cut and I think most of his behaviour and comments are in line with what would come from an innocent person.
This is his quote from the article this thread refers to:

"I’m tested every six days during the year, at home, in competition, when I train. I have always been controlled and I have always been fine."
 
Nov 24, 2010
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jmax22 said:
This from the latest article:

“After winning two Tours, a Giro and a Vuelta with them, they haven’t even issued a statement of support,” Contador complained. “And I haven’t been paid since September.”

Why would your team issue a statement of support after you tested positive and the case is still ongoing? How would they definitively know you didn't dope when scientific evidence says exactly the opposite. He's pretty ignorant to think that his team should back him up. And as far as not being paid? It's pretty standard procedure that a team stops paying you when you test positive.

And stop the "I've never tested positive before" excuse. Like Lance, that is beyond lame. If I get pulled over and cited for speeding, I really don't think I can go to court and say "Well judge, I couldn't have been speeding because I've never had a speeding ticket before."

These are exactly the reasons the general public cannot take professional cycling seriously. Athletes like Contador and Lance continue to insult our intelligence while believing that what they say is actually believable to others.
jmax22 - top post and if AC is sanctioned, as I believe he will be, to me all his previous wins have a cloud over them. To AC's fans there will be no clouds. That is their right. They will NEVER convince me.

Only one point I totally disagree with you on - "These are exactly the reasons the general public cannot take professional cycling seriously"
Cycling has the bio passport, which can be used for target testing as well as sanctioning. There is also normal testing for peds. While both of these methods are not perfect. I believe technology wise, they are the best available tools at this moment in time. How many other professional sports are there who seriously use both tools in tandem!

cheers dallas
 
Mar 12, 2009
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JPM London said:
I'm not going to say I'm convinced he's innocent, but I'm far from convinced he's guilty as well - and that's the key problem Berzin is pointing to about the clen positive; that it's not very significant on it's own (and forget the plastic, cos no official party has confirmed it and so it's only rumour for the moment).

If all they have actually ever found in him is a tiny bit of clen, then this case will not do anything for fight against doping other than underline the situation that we have a bunch of people firing in the dark against anything that moves cos they need to show they're doing something but have no idea what and how to do it. Oh yeah, for the same reason we can only fire at the famous riders if somebody hears about it...

MAYBE the reason he feels he's lacking support from Astana -and complains about money not paid - is because he's actually innocent. Just maybe...

I haven't heard him say "I never tested positive", what I have heard though is him saying he's never doped, never done anything wrong and that he therefore feels very disillusioned with the whole situation and most of the time feels like hanging up his boots (or bike as it may be). Incidentally to my mind the last bit is NOT to "threaten that if he gets suspended he will stop".

To be honest I don't think the case is very clear cut and I think most of his behaviour and comments are in line with what would come from an innocent person.
Very well said, agreed 100%

Sadly he will get banned and stripped from the TdF, for 50 picogr. of clen.
Insane.
 
Berzin said:
The same program that Andy Schleck was on. So you take the Tour title from one doper and give it to another. Yeah, that's how the war on drugs will be won.




No he does not. Preferential treatment is the name of the game in all walks of life, as it is at the UCI. Have you not been following along here? Just because you and many others believe that things SHOULD be one way, they are in reality another way.

Did you see how Pat McQuaid tried to keep Contador's test result quiet until the matter was exposed by a German journalist?

Welcome to pro cycling, rotten to the core.




Unlike you I can see the shades of gray that life is lived in. If you can't tell the difference between Armstrong and Contador, it is beyond me why you're even commenting on what I wrote.

As for hypocrisy, you've got to be kidding me. The whole stinking process at the UCI is a showcase for hypocrisy. And you suddenly expect the rotten crew that control cycling to suddenly sprout angels' wings and do what's right? My good man you are off by more than just one of you believe this.




Hey Nostradamus, the Spanish Federation aren't going to give their national cycling hero a two-year ban for a sand grain of clenbutarol. And the UCI won't do a thing about it either.

I don't make these crooked rules, but I understand how things work. Don't blame me for that, I have nothing to do with how the UCI navigates it's pirate ship.

Thanks for adding some common sense Berzin. But you gotta admit, 1.21 jigowatts is huge
 
peloton said:
Very well said, agreed 100%

Sadly he will get banned and stripped from the TdF, for 50 picogr. of clen.
Insane.
I hate repeating myself, but:
"PEDs are not used in isolation. The chances that Contador willingly used clenbuterol but was clean otherwise are zero."

As for Berzin, the most appalling thing is that he seems to be saying that's what he wants to happen and what the wants the system to be like.
 
Nov 24, 2010
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Polish said:
What I do not understand is all this talk about 50 picograms being a "small amount".

It is a HUGH amount!

50 picograms is the same as 50,000 femtograms.
The same as 50 MILLION attograms.

Holy Crap, Alberto was swimming in Clen. Up to his eyeballs.


http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/weight.html
top post polish. Maybe even another thread about this! What would be even more interesting on this point - some experts giving their opinion as well

cheers dallas
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Master50 said:
It is the mere insignificance of the the drug that makes me wonder a few things.
If the minimum detection threshold is so much higher than what they found it makes me wonder why the sensitivity of the test was so high?
Were they thinking AC was playing with his values so they started looking for anything at all?
Good question. Why look for such small amounts of CLEN if specialists agree that such amounts don't enhance performance anyway.
Were they expecting to find Clen in AC's body? Had AC been targeted because of suspicious passport values or because of something else, perhaps insider information?
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Polish said:
What I do not understand is all this talk about 50 picograms being a "small amount".

It is a HUGH amount!

50 picograms is the same as 50,000 femtograms.
The same as 50 MILLION attograms.

Holy Crap, Alberto was swimming in Clen. Up to his eyeballs.


http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/weight.html
That was the amount in his system when they tested him on the rest day. It would be difficult to determine how much was in his system a day or two, or three earlier. Especially for a drug that apparently filters through the system very rapidly from what I understand.
 
Nov 9, 2010
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JPM London said:
To be honest I don't think the case is very clear cut and I think most of his behaviour and comments are in line with what would come from an innocent person.
Im sorry let me refresh my memory.

Contador:
"Sorry for the inconvenience man, but the positive testresult only came because those f*ckn farmers doped their cattle! These f*ckn spanish farmers f*ck the rules and f*ckn dope their cattle and made me a poor innocent victim of f*ckn contaminated meat!"

WADA:
"19.431 samples of animals from Spain showed no trace of Clenbuterol."

Contador:
"O they didnt find Clenbuterol among the Spain farmers?...

... That f*ckn meat came from South America yes it did!"

Your absolutely right. That is, without a doubt, the behavior of an innocent person. Changing his statement as the facts are unveiled.
 
biopass said:
Im sorry let me refresh my memory.

Contador:
"Sorry for the inconvenience man, but the positive testresult only came because those f*ckn farmers doped their cattle! These f*ckn spanish farmers f*ck the rules and f*ckn dope their cattle and made me a poor innocent victim of f*ckn contaminated meat!"

WADA:
"19.431 samples of animals from Spain showed no trace of Clenbuterol."

Contador:
"O they didnt find Clenbuterol among the Spain farmers?...

... That f*ckn meat came from South America yes it did!"

Your absolutely right. That is, without a doubt, the behavior of an innocent person. Changing his statement as the facts are unveiled.
Contador never said the meat came from South America, or from Spain for that matter. He said the meat was bought in Irún. Nothing else.
 
on3m@n@rmy said:
True. I also don't know of any admissions, which is a little disappointing.
For me, this is good:

Anyone who can not put 1 and 1 together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help- Jan Ullrich.

Though personally, i feel the sentence is structured wrong, in that it assumes the action is finished, whilst i believe it is ongoing.
 
May 24, 2010
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JPM London said:
I'm not going to say I'm convinced he's innocent, but I'm far from convinced he's guilty as well - and that's the key problem Berzin is pointing to about the clen positive; that it's not very significant on it's own (and forget the plastic, cos no official party has confirmed it and so it's only rumour for the moment).

If all they have actually ever found in him is a tiny bit of clen, then this case will not do anything for fight against doping other than underline the situation that we have a bunch of people firing in the dark against anything that moves cos they need to show they're doing something but have no idea what and how to do it. Oh yeah, for the same reason we can only fire at the famous riders if somebody hears about it...

MAYBE the reason he feels he's lacking support from Astana -and complains about money not paid - is because he's actually innocent. Just maybe...

I haven't heard him say "I never tested positive", what I have heard though is him saying he's never doped, never done anything wrong and that he therefore feels very disillusioned with the whole situation and most of the time feels like hanging up his boots (or bike as it may be). Incidentally to my mind the last bit is NOT to "threaten that if he gets suspended he will stop".

To be honest I don't think the case is very clear cut and I think most of his behaviour and comments are in line with what would come from an innocent person.
Bravo my man, Well spoken!
 
hrotha said:
I hate repeating myself, but:
"PEDs are not used in isolation. The chances that Contador willingly used clenbuterol but was clean otherwise are zero."
We all know this. But try taking that one to a court of law. If your statement is used as grounds for suspension, the UCI have a long court battle ahead of them, further disgracing pro cycling at a time no one can afford to have such a controversy drag out for months and possibly years.


hrotha said:
As for Berzin, the most appalling thing is that he seems to be saying that's what he wants to happen and what the wants the system to be like.
That's not what I'm saying. I articulated my thoughts very clearly but some don't seem to understand.

What I want has nothing to do with what will happen. As for the comment about me wanting to see Armstrong banned if it were he instead of Contador that tested positive for such a tiny amount of clenbutarol, he wasn't banned when he tested positive for the supposed skin cream back in 1999.

And the "Tour of Redemption" rolled on despite all this.

There was no outrage from the UCI over Armstrong's retroactively tested 1999 samples that show EPO use without a shadow of a doubt. Why? There was no vested interest by the powers-that-be to go after him.

These are the facts-it's how pro cycling works.

I keep saying it and I'll say it again-the UCI nor the Tour organization, as much as they would loathe to consider it, do not want Contador stripped and banned. That would be twice in 4 years the final race results have proven officially fraudulent.

This ain't gonna happen, regardless of what I want or don't want, which is irrelevant either way.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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JPM London said:
I'm not going to say I'm convinced he's innocent, but I'm far from convinced he's guilty as well - and that's the key problem Berzin is pointing to about the clen positive; that it's not very significant on it's own (and forget the plastic, cos no official party has confirmed it and so it's only rumour for the moment).
it's not a matter of being 100% convinced. it is a matter of what is more likely when you review all of the facts and the timing of events in their entirety. also, you can't just "forget" about the plasticizer data. because it is an imperfect test, the plasiticizer data carries less weight than the clenbuterol but it most certainly factors in.

JPM London said:
If all they have actually ever found in him is a tiny bit of clen, then this case will not do anything for fight against doping other than underline the situation that we have a bunch of people firing in the dark against anything that moves cos they need to show they're doing something but have no idea what and how to do it. Oh yeah, for the same reason we can only fire at the famous riders if somebody hears about it...
WRONG :( catching dopers and sending the message that testing is rigorous is a very good thing no matter what the outcome/sanctions that result from this case are. i can't believe i have to explain that one.

JPM London said:
MAYBE the reason he feels he's lacking support from Astana -and complains about money not paid - is because he's actually innocent. Just maybe...

I haven't heard him say "I never tested positive", what I have heard though is him saying he's never doped, never done anything wrong and that he therefore feels very disillusioned with the whole situation and most of the time feels like hanging up his boots (or bike as it may be). Incidentally to my mind the last bit is NOT to "threaten that if he gets suspended he will stop".

To be honest I don't think the case is very clear cut and I think most of his behaviour and comments are in line with what would come from an innocent person.
i have to agree that this isn't the most clear cut case i've ever seen but only because of the decision to use a more sensitive test. do you believe contador when he says he never doped and has never done anything wrong? seriously? you realize he's won multiple grand tours in dominating fashion in an era of doping riding for ONCE/Liberty, Disco, & Astana? do you think he did all of those things on bread and water? you lend credibility to this person's comments but none to a scientific plasticizer test?

here's the short version:

1. clenbuterol which has a zero threshold is found after the rest day. that's all you need to know. the amount and it's efficacy don't matter. it most likely got there via transfusion but that doesn't much matter either. of course there's a very slim chance of contamination in which case it's contador's job to prove this definitively. maybe he'll be able to, but i doubt it.

2. plasticizer findings consistent with what would be expected after a transfusion carry much less weight by themselves but are strong supporting evidence. (even tho it isn't needed)

3. contador saying what you'd expect from someone who is innocent. sorry bro, this has ZERO influence as this has been all but perfected by liars the world over ;)
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Berzin said:
This ain't gonna happen, regardless of what I want or don't want, which is irrelevant either way.
i know it's irrelevent and all but would you mind explaining to us exactly what you would like to see happen with this contador situation?
 

flicker

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I think Contador is guilty. Unfortunatly it will be bad for cycling if he is found guilty. It would not serve him or cycling for him to go away.

It is a losing situation for everyone, including the fans and sponsors for him to be found guilty.

Probably it would be best for cycling if he quietly retired. In my opinion his career is shot at this point.

If he is sanctioned he probably won't be able to ride the tour or vuelta for 4 years. He is in a bind, what is there for him to do?

When he talks he makes himself look guiltier and cycling worse than it is.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Berzin said:
We all know this. But try taking that one to a court of law. If your statement is used as grounds for suspension, the UCI have a long court battle ahead of them, further disgracing pro cycling at a time no one can afford to have such a controversy drag out for months and possibly years.


I keep saying it and I'll say it again-the UCI nor the Tour organization, as much as they would loathe to consider it, do not want Contador stripped and banned. That would be twice in 4 years the final race results have proven officially fraudulent.

This ain't gonna happen, regardless of what I want or don't want, which is irrelevant either way.
Two points-one irrelevant and one obvious.
Point one-Clen is illegal and no cyclist at Contador's level would have it in his system unknowingly. If the potential source was as common and insignifcant as he'd like us to believe there would be much more common evidence. The UCI and WADA rules indicate Contador must prove that point, whether they like it or not.

Point two-UCI tried to hide this one and make it go away. They are now in a fight for their own sorry hides. Who do you think will lose? The Pirates can find another performer to promote.

Another note: The fact that the race results have been proven fraudulent only two times should be the real issue.
 
May 11, 2009
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flicker said:
I think Contador is guilty. Unfortunatly it will be bad for cycling if he is found guilty. It would not serve him or cycling for him to go away.

It is a losing situation for everyone, including the fans and sponsors for him to be found guilty.
As damaging as it would be to have another prominent cyclist and tour champion sanctioned, in the long run the damage of not sanctioning him (or even giving him a reduced sanction) would be worse. First you would be setting a double standard, where a star rider receives preferential treatment and a reduced ban while other less well known riders such as the Chinese rider who tested positive for Clenbuterol receive a full ban.

Second this case represents an opportunity to make at least some headway against blood doping. Blood doping is still the one area where there is no reliable test for detecting it and as a result is probably the method most being abused by the riders. While the plasticizer test is far from perfect, this case could be used as a basis to validate the test and at least get something in place to potentially catch blood dopers. At the very least suspending Contador for the full two years on the basis of the Clenbuterol positive (even if the plasticizer test cannot be validated) will at least make the riders start to think twice about whether they can continue get away with blood doping.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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I think the UCI has really tried to do the right thing here.

I know the vocal majority on the forum likes to slam and insult McQuaid but he and his advisors(lawyers?) IMO have handled this situation well.

A lot of things happen we do not see that are for the good of the sport.
From a legal standpoint I think drawing out a decision was a great idea.

Also giving the arbitration to Contadors own country was very considerate.

Trumping his own decision of giving the judging work to the Spaniards and then holding the sword over them to make a proper decision was brilliant.

By making Contador sweat, I think it will pressure teams to re-evaluate their own doping problems and hopefully phase them out.

Of course if Contador is guilty he should get the maximum penalty, nothing special about him. Same rules for all the sportsmen.

I like Contador to express himself. It is funny watching him stumble.
 
Nov 24, 2010
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flicker said:
I think the UCI has really tried to do the right thing here.

I know the vocal majority on the forum likes to slam and insult McQuaid but he and his advisors(lawyers?) IMO have handled this situation well.

A lot of things happen we do not see that are for the good of the sport.
From a legal standpoint I think drawing out a decision was a great idea.

Also giving the arbitration to Contadors own country was very considerate.

Trumping his own decision of giving the judging work to the Spaniards and then holding the sword over them to make a proper decision was brilliant.

By making Contador sweat, I think it will pressure teams to re-evaluate their own doping problems and hopefully phase them out.

Of course if Contador is guilty he should get the maximum penalty, nothing special about him. Same rules for all the sportsmen.

I like Contador to express himself. It is funny watching him stumble.

for once flicker, I totally agree with your opinion on all points - top post
Maybe you have an alterior motive. If so, in this case, it is irrelevant

cheers dallas
 
Oct 16, 2010
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flicker said:
I think the UCI has really tried to do the right thing here./QUOTE]

Does that include offering AC his defense strategy (foodcontamination) as well as arranging a public statement of support from this Dutch Doctor De Boer?
 

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