Can we start a ****storm so the TdF starts changing their stupid routes?

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So it turns out there is an almost 100% success rate when the ASO has actually given Pogacar or Vingegaard the chance to attack from far out.
Haven't there been such stages? I think its more about the relative strengths of the riders and their teams. IMO, back ended tours don't help. But Visma seem to have put all their eggs in the Hautacam basket (stage 12) but then realized Pogacar was simply too strong. That is similar to 2024 PdB (stage 15). Last year they had a plan they thought would work and then admitted afterwards that Pogacar was simply better.

2022 Granon was stage 11.

And its not as if teams can have a rider or the team strength to do an 'Andy Schleck' (2011). Particularly when you are burning your matches for two weeks to wear down a rider like Pogacar.
 
Haven't there been such stages? I think its more about the relative strengths of the riders and their teams. IMO, back ended tours don't help. But Visma seem to have put all their eggs in the Hautacam basket (stage 12) but then realized Pogacar was simply too strong. That is similar to 2024 PdB (stage 15). Last year they had a plan they thought would work and then admitted afterwards that Pogacar was simply better.

2022 Granon was stage 11.

And its not as if teams can have a rider or the team strength to do an 'Andy Schleck' (2011). Particularly when you are burning your matches for two weeks to wear down a rider like Pogacar.
No, that's exactly the point. Look, I think there are many important factors and pacing of the route is clearly one of them. But it's simply striking how few stages there have been, suited to attacking from far out, when the two biggest stars are so willing to do that.
 
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it seems all the hard racing in the first 10 days really killed the riders. No surprise that from the GT contenders Onley and Lipowitz seemd to have delined least in the 3rd week , since they were not going as deep as UAE / Visma on the classics stages.
Probably 5 mountain top finishes ,1 MTT and about 6 classics stages ( if ridden for GC) is simply more than they can do physically. Also there are almost no recovery stages any more where the breakaway gets 25min.
i would prefer less backloading, less mountain top finishes.
 
3 MTF absolute max 4 - with at least one (preferably 2) not being the hardest climb of stage examples

- queen stage something like stage 15 1998 Tour would encourage long range attacks - coirx de fer, Gaibier and finishing say Les Deux Alpes or descent finish in serre chavalier

- palharies in the Pyrenees before finishing at plateau de bonsacre.

- descent finish in morzine after joux verre and joux plane

Lengthy TT (c50km) to balance out the mountains
 
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No, that's exactly the point. Look, I think there are many important factors and pacing of the route is clearly one of them. But it's simply striking how few stages there have been, suited to attacking from far out, when the two biggest stars are so willing to do that.
It's the problem with big mountain finishes primarily. If you just look at what kind of stages has seen riders at least try, in this last Giro as well that wasn't even that good. It's all about the risk profile of a stage. If you're on a 20 minute steep cat 1 that tops with 20km to go, Pogacar isn't gonna counter you because he doesn't want to do a 20k solo for maybe 30s. Or if there's domestiques ahead, he's not even gonna try in the first place.

And you don't need Mortirolo or Finestre every time. In fact, I think slightly shorter but equally steep climbs would be better because it makes the chances of breakaway riders surviving much better. And perhaps it makes it better if these stages are flatter than more mountainious, because by the time you get to the domestique and they've already done 2 monster climbs they're dead anyway.

Route design wise, the best thing I've seen this Tour is literally just the fact that UAE was unable to control 150km of flat before the Ventoux. That gives more ideas than anything else this Tour.
 
Although France doesn't have the awesome options that like in Italy, there are still possibilities.
Port de Pailhères - Ax 3 Domaines
Col de la Romme - Col de la Colombiere
Montee Bissane - Megeve
Col de Joux-Plane - Avoriaz
Col du Galibier - Les Deux Alpes
Col de l'Iseran - Tignes
Col de la Madeleine - Valmorel
Col d'Allos - Pra Loup

I'm also done with the Col de la Loze, it suffercates the action the the last few km, maybe as a first mountain stage at the start of a block, but no more queen stages.
 
Although France doesn't have the awesome options that like in Italy, there are still possibilities.
Port de Pailhères - Ax 3 Domaines
Col de la Romme - Col de la Colombiere
Montee Bissane - Megeve
Col de Joux-Plane - Avoriaz
Col du Galibier - Les Deux Alpes
Col de l'Iseran - Tignes
Col de la Madeleine - Valmorel
Col d'Allos - Pra Loup

I'm also done with the Col de la Loze, it suffercates the action the the last few km, maybe as a first mountain stage at the start of a block, but no more queen stages.
Lot of these options make the breakaway pretty pointless to have domestiques in, and some of these climbs are just so long it's too easy to neutralize the breakaway on. And that's even the problem with Loze as well even if you wanna use it as a pass.
 
The TDF viewing numbers are a joke this year. Me personally (as a Pog fan) found the race after Peyragude an absolute chore to watch.
The whole world is hyped every year about the TDF but I can't stand it. Give me a Vuelta every year.
Which is interesting as the Giro had it's highest viewing figures for 10 years this year, despite there being no top Italian riders.
I think Pogacar isn't the huge draw that the media makes out.
 
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Which is interesting as the Giro had it's highest viewing figures for 10 years this year, despite there being no top Italian riders.
I think Pogacar isn't the huge draw that the media makes out.
Nah, Pogačar is just suffering the same audience fatigue as we often see in other such sports. People forget that when he first burst onto the scene, Sebastian Vettel was wildly popular, interjecting himself into championship business, winning races in the Toro Rosso, and stealing the championship on the last day in Abu Dhabi in 2010. Once the best driver gets into the best car, they just drive away from the field, and the spectacle suffers. The same thing happened to Lewis Hamilton and then to Max Verstappen. People go from wanting to see them upset the apple cart to wanting somebody - anybody - to topple them.

The other thing that I've used is the old combat sports analogy. Combat sports have historically worked off of a pay-per-view model, so you have to have a contest people are willing to part with money to see, hence why those sports have often been heavily dependent on personalities. If the champion is popular, people tend to be more willing to pay money to see them than if they aren't, for obvious reasons. But if you have an unpopular or relatively neutral champion who doesn't arouse strong enough feelings in the audience for them to buy on the strength of them alone, you need either a popular contender who people will pay to see, or at least a contender that the audience believes have a shot. If the champion is unpopular, people won't pay to see them beat a tomato can, because they would be buying because they want to see the hated champion beaten; the contender needs to be somebody the audience believes has a shot. They don't need to win - just have a shot.

This is the problem cycling finds itself in now. With Armstrong, and to a lesser extent with Froome and the Sky crew, you had issues of a lack of popularity in some audiences, but the new eyes brought to the sport in previously little-tapped markets more than made up for it. They aroused certain antipathy among large sections of the audience, which made rivals into popular figures; however, audiences did suffer, especially in the Sky era, during periods where there was no credible alternative to Sky winning, and indeed on a couple of occasions the biggest narrative of the Tour was the audience's rejection of Froome as a champion; without credible alternatives, watching a rider you don't like stroll to victory almost unchallenged unsurprisingly did not make for a popular spectacle.

I've yet to see what I'd call anything remotely like the level of antipathy for Pogačar that was around during the height of Sky's domination or Lance's reign of terror. However, neither Slovenia nor the UAE are sizable enough hotbeds of cycling for their domestic audiences to represent something worthwhile to replace the audience turned off by the domination and lack of spectacle, and Pogačar, while he is not unpopular per se, is also not somebody that people are tuning in specifically to see. While there is some interest in whether or not Vingegaard can put up a fight after recent years, of course, the problem is that after Hautacam, that hope was extinguished pretty comprehensively and so the only casuals left tuning in are habitual background watchers, and those who enjoy rooting for the overdog.

As a result, though, I fear we're in for more of the same for the foreseeable future - trying to avoid anything too decisive until deep in the race, much as in 2009 because they didn't know what kind of level Armstrong would be at, they neutered the Pyrenees to keep gaps small until as late as possible, and maybe more Unipuerto or HC finishes that will neuter racing before them in order to reduce the amount of terrain for Pogačar to gain on, in the hope that time gaps can be reduced. If we're lucky we get more TT mileage, and it is worth noting that the organisers' frustrations with the lack of action on the sprint stages, and the relatively strong designs of rouleur stages in the Tour in recent years, could be a positive sign for things to come, so it isn't all doom and gloom, however the problem that they have at present is that not enough people are tuning in for Pogačar to offset those who are turning off due to a lack of competition or action.
 
Nah, Pogačar is just suffering the same audience fatigue as we often see in other such sports. People forget that when he first burst onto the scene, Sebastian Vettel was wildly popular, interjecting himself into championship business, winning races in the Toro Rosso, and stealing the championship on the last day in Abu Dhabi in 2010. Once the best driver gets into the best car, they just drive away from the field, and the spectacle suffers. The same thing happened to Lewis Hamilton and then to Max Verstappen. People go from wanting to see them upset the apple cart to wanting somebody - anybody - to topple them.

The other thing that I've used is the old combat sports analogy. Combat sports have historically worked off of a pay-per-view model, so you have to have a contest people are willing to part with money to see, hence why those sports have often been heavily dependent on personalities. If the champion is popular, people tend to be more willing to pay money to see them than if they aren't, for obvious reasons. But if you have an unpopular or relatively neutral champion who doesn't arouse strong enough feelings in the audience for them to buy on the strength of them alone, you need either a popular contender who people will pay to see, or at least a contender that the audience believes have a shot. If the champion is unpopular, people won't pay to see them beat a tomato can, because they would be buying because they want to see the hated champion beaten; the contender needs to be somebody the audience believes has a shot. They don't need to win - just have a shot.

This is the problem cycling finds itself in now. With Armstrong, and to a lesser extent with Froome and the Sky crew, you had issues of a lack of popularity in some audiences, but the new eyes brought to the sport in previously little-tapped markets more than made up for it. They aroused certain antipathy among large sections of the audience, which made rivals into popular figures; however, audiences did suffer, especially in the Sky era, during periods where there was no credible alternative to Sky winning, and indeed on a couple of occasions the biggest narrative of the Tour was the audience's rejection of Froome as a champion; without credible alternatives, watching a rider you don't like stroll to victory almost unchallenged unsurprisingly did not make for a popular spectacle.

I've yet to see what I'd call anything remotely like the level of antipathy for Pogačar that was around during the height of Sky's domination or Lance's reign of terror. However, neither Slovenia nor the UAE are sizable enough hotbeds of cycling for their domestic audiences to represent something worthwhile to replace the audience turned off by the domination and lack of spectacle, and Pogačar, while he is not unpopular per se, is also not somebody that people are tuning in specifically to see. While there is some interest in whether or not Vingegaard can put up a fight after recent years, of course, the problem is that after Hautacam, that hope was extinguished pretty comprehensively and so the only casuals left tuning in are habitual background watchers, and those who enjoy rooting for the overdog.

As a result, though, I fear we're in for more of the same for the foreseeable future - trying to avoid anything too decisive until deep in the race, much as in 2009 because they didn't know what kind of level Armstrong would be at, they neutered the Pyrenees to keep gaps small until as late as possible, and maybe more Unipuerto or HC finishes that will neuter racing before them in order to reduce the amount of terrain for Pogačar to gain on, in the hope that time gaps can be reduced. If we're lucky we get more TT mileage, and it is worth noting that the organisers' frustrations with the lack of action on the sprint stages, and the relatively strong designs of rouleur stages in the Tour in recent years, could be a positive sign for things to come, so it isn't all doom and gloom, however the problem that they have at present is that not enough people are tuning in for Pogačar to offset those who are turning off due to a lack of competition or action.
So much of this.

In 2019, Pogacar was an exciting new young super talent along Bernal and Evenepoel
In 2020, Pogacar was simply the foil to Jumbo, and a plurality were mostly happy that Jumbo lost probably due to Sky PTSD.
In 2021, Pogacar dominates, but he has a sort of novelty because he also wins Liege and Lombardia in the same year, something not seens since the 1980s or whatever
In 2022, right when it's on the threat of starting to be boring, he actually loses the Tour in spectacular fashion and ends up somehow only winning Lombardia. In the same year, Evenepoel also emerges as a potential future threat.
In 2023, he has the wtf moment of winning RVV but he does lose the Tour again after a crash in Liege and a collapse that arguably bougth him more popularity than any wins.
In 2024, he is stupendously dominant but at least there's the fake sense of comeback, vengeance and novelty because he had lost the Tour the two previous years and the Giro/Tour double hadn't been done in 26 years. Also, it seemed more logical because Vingegaard only barely made it to the Tour after super heavy crash in April.

This year is the first year it's all started to become predictable and boring. And that's basically 3-4 years later than it would have without like 2 losses and 1 moment of bad luck.

Generally, people like first and then rationalize later, and Pogacar had every bit of initial superficial appeal going for him, and the negative consequences only started to show a lot later.
 
In hindsight it's actually really interesting how we've gone from "Yay Giro barely has MTFs" to "Giro sucks" to now "Tour sucks, MTFs bad after all".

It would be beyond obvious to me that ideally you heavily frontload the MTFs among your mountain stages and don't have a single HC MTF in the last week.
 
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it seems all the hard racing in the first 10 days really killed the riders. No surprise that from the GT contenders Onley and Lipowitz seemd to have delined least in the 3rd week , since they were not going as deep as UAE / Visma on the classics stages.
Probably 5 mountain top finishes ,1 MTT and about 6 classics stages ( if ridden for GC) is simply more than they can do physically. Also there are almost no recovery stages any more where the breakaway gets 25min.
i would prefer less backloading, less mountain top finishes.
The riders could do longer and harder races on worse equipment on much more primitive sports science decades in the past.

If they can't race all the stages all out, then they're going to need to learn how to dose their efforts and maybe they can let the breakaway get 25 minutes some days. The riders aren't forced to ride hell for leather on every stage, that's a choice. The GC men don't need to brick themselves about the thought of Mathieu van der Poel gaining time in a week 1 hilly stage, any more than the sprinters' teams need to panic about a breakaway of Thibault Guernalec and Paul Ourselin gaining more than a minute and a half lest they fail to catch them. I agree with less backloading and less MTFs, but it's not the MTFs in and of themselves (after all you could have 5 Unipuerto stages, which wouldn't be harder than 5 stages like the 2012 Giro Cortina stage or the 2010 Tour St-Jean-de-Maurienne stage), but the fact that the péloton wants to be able to just treat the sport as point-and-squirt in terms of effort management.
 
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This was already expected and addressed before the Tour in the rumour thread.

Auch > Hautacam (Tourmalet, Hautacam)
Pau > Superbagnères (Soulor, Balès, Superbagnères)
Luchon > Peyragudes (Peyresourde, Azet, Ancizan, Aspin, Lançon, Peyragudes)

Bedoin > Mont Ventoux (ITT)

Vif > Courchevel (Glandon, Madeleine, Platta OR Galibier, Madeleine, Courchevel 1850)
Albertville > La Plagne (Roselend, Loze, La Plagne)
 
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Four different ways of using Col de la Loze as a pass:

The obvious one, where it's by far the most important climb of the stage:

The different, more classic version, where it's very important, but stuff will happen afterwards:

One where it's the least important :

And finally the totally old school descent and valley finale, where it's the only important climb of the day: