Can we start a ****storm so the TdF starts changing their stupid routes?

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Devil's Elbow

Devil's Elbow

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The obvious solution for this stage would have been to climb Loze from the proper side, descend into Courchevel, and then climb this work of art. The unpaved sections are easily doable in a race.
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Devil's Elbow said:
The obvious solution for this stage would have been to climb Loze from the proper side, descend into Courchevel, and then climb this work of art. The unpaved sections are easily doable in a race.
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That would've been what 6500m desnivel? I guess that means Polittbüro pace until Meribel.
 
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Gigs_98

Gigs_98

Feb 18, 2015
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Red Rick said:
It's clearly a design philophy issue on Govenou's end. From what I understand he just gets free reign over the route with the start and finish locations he gets, so I would suspect this time he either wanted to mix it up or thought it was overkill before tomorrow to put the harder sides of Loze in there.

For me the positive of Loze is simply the implication that these bike paths are getting pathed in the first place, and that may pave the way (huehuehue) for other climbs to connect in the area. I'm not only talking about Rosael cause Rosael is batshit, but also La Saussaz which would connect the same valleys as Rosael does but still *** everythign esle out the water.

I guess the main issue is these *** ski stations always paying for everything so you have to finish there but whatever. Especially places like Superbagneres I can't find a way to polish a turd.
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I think the pyrenees in general have the problem that (aside from some crazy steep climbs in the middle of nowhere in the western pyrenees) their hardest pass is the Tourmalet and the Tourmalet is really not that hard. I really wish Pailheres-Ax3 would make a return but other than that and maybe some creative solutions in Andorra there aren't that many great options. For Superbagneres I still wish they used Port de Bales beforehand but I'll concede that's not a huge difference maker.
 
Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

Aug 3, 2015
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Gigs_98 said:
I really disagree actually. I think Alpe d'Huez is a really good mtf inviting people to attack rather early on the climb. Meanwhile Col de la Loze is a super hard climb (clearly harder than either Granon or Portet imo) which could become the Tours Finestre if they treated it like that and used it as the pentimate climb with a softer climb to finish the stage. Imo Col de la Loze followed by a second ascent just to Meribel is probably the best combination of climbs the french alps have to offer. But they keep using it as a mtf anyway.
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There's a big difference being between being 'harder' and better though. Granon and Portet are perfect climbs in the modern peloton around 9%. Col de la Laze from Courchevel wants you to absolutely smash it early, but still on meh gradients, or wait for the last 3 km. Loze from Courchevel has potential, but only if you have a team and a rider committed enough to blast the first 10 km and even then it can be suspect to create gaps. Otherwise it's just a realtively bad climb whereas Granon and Portet will always deliver. You really want sustained +8% climbs, at least over good periods, otherwise its just a bit too hard and if there's a headwin its impossible.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Gigs_98 said:
I think the pyrenees in general have the problem that (aside from some crazy steep climbs in the middle of nowhere in the western pyrenees) their hardest pass is the Tourmalet and the Tourmalet is really not that hard. I really wish Pailheres-Ax3 would make a return but other than that and maybe some creative solutions in Andorra there aren't that many great options. For Superbagneres I still wish they used Port de Bales beforehand but I'll concede that's not a huge difference maker.
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I am just over the French Pyrenees. Also because there appears to be like 2 ski stations max that matter.

My main annoyance with Tourmalet west is that it's always the first of like 4 climbs with either Aspin or HdA in there, and those are both dreadful. Tourmalet east is fine. Just do a descent finish into Luz ffs.
 
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Libertine Seguros

Libertine Seguros

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Gigs_98 said:
I really disagree actually. I think Alpe d'Huez is a really good mtf inviting people to attack rather early on the climb. Meanwhile Col de la Loze is a super hard climb (clearly harder than either Granon or Portet imo) which could become the Tours Finestre if they treated it like that and used it as the pentimate climb with a softer climb to finish the stage. Imo Col de la Loze followed by a second ascent just to Meribel is probably the best combination of climbs the french alps have to offer. But they keep using it as a mtf anyway.
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Loze and then looping around via La Tania to climb up to Méribel-Mottaret would be really good, but if Courchevel is paying, they could also descend back via La Tania to Les Allues and descend back into Brides-les-Bains before doing the double-climb to Courchevel-le-Praz that they did in the 2014 Dauphiné. Hell, they wouldn't even need to do the double climb, they could skip Montagny if they wanted. Skipping the double climb would give about 10km @ 6% to the line I think which would enable Col de la Loze from the Méribel side to be something of a Col Agnel-a-like, with the steep final part.

Or you could descend the side they climbed today, then climb the first part of the Méribel side again (around 11km @ 6,5%) before the short plateau/descent stretch into La Tania to put the finish there, it would be around 5km from the summit of flat and rolling terrain to the line from there I think, putting the summit of Loze around 40-45km from the line.
 
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Gigs_98

Gigs_98

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Valv.Piti said:
There's a big difference being between being 'harder' and better though. Granon and Portet are perfect climbs in the modern peloton around 9%. Col de la Laze from Courchevel wants you to absolutely smash it early, but still on meh gradients, or wait for the last 3 km. Loze from Courchevel has potential, but only if you have a team and a rider committed enough to blast the first 10 km and even then it can be suspect to create gaps. Otherwise it's just a realtively bad climb whereas Granon and Portet will always deliver. You really want sustained +8% climbs, at least over good periods, otherwise its just a bit too hard and if there's a headwin its impossible.
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I think what you are saying is true for mtf's but if the climb is used as a pass I don't think the fact that all the really steep gradients come at the end is that big of a problem. The crucial part is that on those last 5km at 10% gaps are always gonna open up and it's almost impossible to pace it without something happening. If there is another 10km climb yet to come that's all I'm asking for.
 
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Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

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Gigs_98 said:
I think what you are saying is true for mtf's but if the climb is used as a pass I don't think the fact that all the really steep gradients come at the end is that big of a problem. The crucial part is that on those last 5km at 10% gaps are always gonna open up and it's almost impossible to pace it without something happening. If there is another 10km climb yet to come that's all I'm asking for.
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Oh yeah I agree, would be interesting to see Loze as a pass
 
Libertine Seguros

Libertine Seguros

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Last 28km loop can be done in either direction. Doing it in opposite direction may be preferable as that way you aren't descending the same road you climbed earlier between Brides-les-Bains and Les Allues, but at the same time there's like, 30-35km between the climb and the descent of that section of road, so it shouldn't be any kind of problem to do it as per my profile here.

When I tried to copy the 2014 Dauphiné finale from there it put Loze at ~58km from the line so that was a little bit far I thought, with neither of the last climbs being that hard (8km @ 6,9% and 6km @ 7%) whereas doing it this way gives us a shorter run and a longer climb at 9,6km @ 6,8% to the line.

Doing it the reverse way would avoid the doubling back, because you'd then go direct down to Brides-les-Bains, then climb the first half of the Loze climb again - however this would then be about 4km descent to the line, and also this would cramp the finish because there wouldn't be too much room between where the finish would have to be, near the ski jumps, and the road they would be descending prior to this.
 
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A

Andy262

Sep 27, 2014
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Isn’t the basic problem that most of the other riders who potentially have the ability to mix things up either ride for the same teams or skip the tour. From the beginning of the race the odds would have been something like Pog 4-6, Vingo 6-4, Remco 50-1, the rest 200-1 plus. There’s your problem.
 
Ulle97

Ulle97

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OK, we've had a lot of Tour route bashing.

Give me the order of climbs and the stages you would select to make a good GC race.

Just indicate the mountain range and stages that you'd like in a route.


For example:

Jura:
Biche, Grand Colombier, Mont du Chat (Finish in Chambery)

Alps:
Madeleine, Glandon, Alpe d'Huez.
Izoard, Allos, Pra-Loup.

Pyrenees:
Pailheres, Ax-3 Domaines
Soudet, Marie-Blanque, Aubisque. (Finish in Laruns)


Just want to see what sort of route you'd like to see for GC action.
PS- you don't have to indicate the sprinter stages:)
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Ulle97 said:
OK, we've had a lot of Tour route bashing.

Give me the order of climbs and the stages you would select to make a good GC race.

Just indicate the mountain range and stages that you'd like in a route.


For example:

Jura:
Biche, Grand Colombier, Mont du Chat (Finish in Chambery)

Alps:
Madeleine, Glandon, Alpe d'Huez.
Izoard, Allos, Pra-Loup.

Pyrenees:
Pailheres, Ax-3 Domaines
Soudet, Marie-Blanque, Aubisque. (Finish in Laruns)


Just want to see what sort of route you'd like to see for GC action.
PS- you don't have to indicate the sprinter stages:)
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Rick makes list, realises he's crossing into Italy like 4 seperate times.
 
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