Cancellara motorized attacks?

[wallymann]

boardman is smoking something

AAA batts putting out that much? not possible. a high-power NiMH rechargeable AAA is rated for 1000mah and puts out 1.2v...lets convert that to watt-hours:

1000mah * 0.001 * 1.2volts = 1.2watt-hours...a whopping 1.2watts for 1 hour. useless! and that's before electrical and frictional losses in the system.

technically you can easily provide useful power w/ lithium polymer batteries, that put out high voltage with high mah ratings, easily able to stack them and get 100-200watt-hours of power and fit within the confines of the seat-tube.

powerful brushless electric motors are proven technology, too. simple bevel gear fitted to the BB spindle gets the power down.

the harder part is configuring an electric speed controller to also live in the confines of a bicycle tube...dealing with that much energy, they need ALOT of air cooling or they'll burn out in a very smelly and smoky electrical meltdown!

in any case, this is easy for the UCI to police...strong electric motors must have STRONG MAGNETS. when the bikes go thru UCI scrutineering, just stick a magnet next to the downtube and seat-tube where the motor(s) would need to be...if it sticks, then something's amiss and they know to pull the crank/bb for further inspection!!!

 

[Ripper]

Wow. It's been a slow news day in conspiracy land.

Holy f*cking crap, some of the funniest theories in a long time. And for all those that already punched a million holes in this "theory" ... thanks!

 

[51...topgun]

IF, (very big If) this method of mechadoping turns out to be in some form of 'Use" wouldn't it be Shimano, with their mega buck Di development costs be the biggest loser?
No one is really gonna be surprised that thepro's would 'try'. However, in trrying to defeat it UCIcan't think it will suddenly get new money to get an Xray machine or hire new inspectors. It will simply(minded) ban electronics from SRM's to Powertaps and Di's to eliminate the possibility. Like the hour record- It's simpler to go backward in bike technology and draw a crowd than invest heavily in anti tech defense to get the same crowd to watch. All this negative stuff is turning my passion into junior wwf. ugh.

 

[9000ft]

How about just look down the seat tube?

I really can't imagine this. It's too easy to detect and the consequences of getting caught are too big. Plus it would almost have to be a total team effort, the rider and one rouge mechanic couldn't dream this up and implement it themselves. You get caught, you loose everything.

It is much easier to set up and get away with a PED program.

 

[Parrot23]

New York Times quotes Marco Pinotti:

"Marco Pinotti, an Italian who races for HTC-Columbia, said that when he first heard about the hidden motor, “it seemed a stupid thing.” “But then I came to know the technology,” he added, “and I started making connections.”

Because he lacked hard evidence, Pinotti, who finished ninth over all in the Giro d’Italia, declined to say who he thought might be using motorized assistance or in what races it might have been used."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/sports/cycling/05cycle.html?hpw

 

[Willy_Voet]

The Saxo Bank team issued a statement denying any 'doped' bicycle use by FC.

Perhaps the Statement could have include the reason for the numerous bike changes in question. Maybe they did not want to 'dis' the bike/wheel/tire partners for failure, but the bike changes are still curious.

IIRC:

There was a picture of one of the bikes after one of the spring classics, not sure if Cancellara's. The front brake mounting bolt (actually, probably the little star washers on the bolt) had screwed up the carbon fork. This loosened the front brake and was making it rub.

 

[tubularglue]

i want to believe
in a bike without magnets
it is easy to deceive
with bottom bracket madness

 

[Oldman]

AAA batts putting out that much? not possible. a high-power NiMH rechargeable AAA is rated for 1000mah and puts out 1.2v...lets convert that to watt-hours:

1000mah * 0.001 * 1.2volts = 1.2watt-hours...a whopping 1.2watts for 1 hour. useless! and that's before electrical and frictional losses in the system.

technically you can easily provide useful power w/ lithium polymer batteries, that put out high voltage with high mah ratings, easily able to stack them and get 100-200watt-hours of power and fit within the confines of the seat-tube.

powerful brushless electric motors are proven technology, too. simple bevel gear fitted to the BB spindle gets the power down.

the harder part is configuring an electric speed controller to also live in the confines of a bicycle tube...dealing with that much energy, they need ALOT of air cooling or they'll burn out in a very smelly and smoky electrical meltdown!

in any case, this is easy for the UCI to police...strong electric motors must have STRONG MAGNETS. when the bikes go thru UCI scrutineering, just stick a magnet next to the downtube and seat-tube where the motor(s) would need to be...if it sticks, then something's amiss and they know to pull the crank/bb for further inspection!!!

Thanks for the tech back up. People forget also how big their bottom brackets are and why...unless they've never crushed some big gears. You can't easily integrate a tiny drive to contribute to that system without some hardware and some physical space.
I still like the possibility of tiny nuclear reactors.

 

[Ingenerius]

Thanks for the tech back up. People forget also how big their bottom brackets are and why...unless they've never crushed some big gears. You can't easily integrate a tiny drive to contribute to that system without some hardware and some physical space.
I still like the possibility of tiny nuclear reactors.

I don't get why you would still argue on this point. No problem at all to get it to contribute, which is shown by the Gruber assist. What we are talking about here is basically the Gruber assist or whatever similar motor with the battery inside the frame. So that it is doable is a proven fact

You have no clue.

 

[ErmOkk]

Cancellara is just the greatest engine of this era. Some just can't believe that probably.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Again: The motor doesn't really produce 100 watt, they say it's an equivalent of an extra 100 watt. That's a big difference!
But like i said, rather compare it with a strong tailwind.

BTW: I only say it's possible, I don't say anyone did use it.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Cancellara is just the greatest engine of this era. Some just can't believe that probably.

I'd say a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted when dealing with cycling results.

 

[Maxiton]

1kW from a standard battery - yikes. Someone somewhere will be thinking about it...

No doubt. Riis has probably been on the phone since this story broke, trying to see if he can actually set this up. Bruyneel's right behind him. Or do you think he and Lance are saying, "Naw, that would be cheating!"

Anyway, the answer is simple. Ban batteries on the bikes. All batteries, including that ridiculous Di2 crap. What? Shimano put millions into the R&D on that? That's their problem! Fools. Ban batteries and inspect the bikes. Preferably an inspection that doesn't rely on the word of the inspector (eg, ultrasound). Problem solved. Next.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

Cancellara is just the greatest engine of this era. Some just can't believe that probably.

in an era of great dopers for him to be doing this clean is almost..........ALMOST..................impossible................


I would say he's a doper just like the rest

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Again: The motor doesn't really produce 100 watt, they say it's an equivalent of an extra 100 watt.

This doesn't make sense. The only way to get the equivalent of an extra 100W is to add an extra 100W. You can't add 23W and get the equivalent of 100W. They say it is the equivalent of an extra 100W because the motor generates significantly more power, but losses in the system reduce that to an extra 100W at the chain.

So what is the effect of 100W? It is dependent upon speed. The drag force acting upon a rider is proportional to the velocity squared. At steady state, the power required is proportional to the velocity cubed. What this means in general terms is that if you want to double your speed, it takes 8 times the amount of power. That is why my economy car can easily exceed 100mph, while it takes 500+hp to break 200mph.

Lets compare the same rider at different power outputs. The jump from 100 to 200 W is pretty significant. Double the power, so 2^(1/3), or 1.26 times the velocity. The jump to 200-300 is still pretty good: 1.5 times the power, 1.14 times the velocity. What about the difference between 500 and 600W? A 20% increase in power only gives a 6% increase in velocity. Still not too bad. What about what we are looking at in this case. A short burst of max power to get away from your companions. Lets assume that Cancellara can achieve a peak output of 1400W during a break. Obviously I don't know his numbers, but I've hit 2200 on the Powertap before, and I have a significant bulk advantage over him, so I think this is reasonable. I think Cozy Beehive calculated approx 1400 in his analysis as well. Even if it is completely wrong, it still illustrates the physics. FYI: At 1000W, you'd see a 3% increase in speed, and at 2000W, 1.6% increase.

So what is the effect of an extra 100W at 1400W rider output? a 2% increase in velocity. So if he was able to go 50kph, with the motor assist, he could do 51kph.

 

[DL9999]

My point is the first 100 watts of effort is relatively low torque. When you are at 700 watts of output, in an environment with wind/cobbles, etc; how would such a light system assist at that output level? It couldn't simply add 100 watts to the effort as it would have to apply the output to the rider's variable torque and rpms.

I don't think you're right. As I see it, the only requirement is that the motor delivers a useful torque at typical BB rpms (assuming it is connected to the BB axle). The motor won't know or care how fast the bicycle is travelling or how much force the rider is applying to the pedals. Its torque will be dependent on its own rotational speed, which will be affected by wind, cobbles and the like only insofar as the BB rotational speed will vary as the conditions change.

 

[Oldman]

I don't think you're right. As I see it, the only requirement is that the motor delivers a useful torque at typical BB rpms (assuming it is connected to the BB axle). The motor won't know or care how fast the bicycle is travelling or how much force the rider is applying to the pedals. Its torque will be dependent on its own rotational speed, which will be affected by wind, cobbles and the like only insofar as the BB rotational speed will vary as the conditions change.

See Frank Tuesdays' previous post for some of the information. I'm skeptical of the mechanical interface to the bottom bracket at that speed and wattage output. The motor generates it's power but it must be applied realistically, not theoretically.

 

[Ripper]

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha!

The debate continues

Does anyone seriously think FC used a motorbike?

 

[Oldman]

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha!

The debate continues

Does anyone seriously think FC used a motorbike?

No. I should just give up and let the techspiracy crowd go at it.

 

[Ripper]

No. I should just give up and let the techspiracy crowd go at it.

On another note, the thread in the clinic on Masters Doping is pretty interesting. I would love to figure out how to lose the 5 lbs I seem to have gained since turning 40!

 

[cyclopeon]

This doesn't make sense. The only way to get the equivalent of an extra 100W is to add an extra 100W. You can't add 23W and get the equivalent of 100W. They say it is the equivalent of an extra 100W because the motor generates significantly more power, but losses in the system reduce that to an extra 100W at the chain.

So what is the effect of 100W? It is dependent upon speed. The drag force acting upon a rider is proportional to the velocity squared. At steady state, the power required is proportional to the velocity cubed. What this means in general terms is that if you want to double your speed, it takes 8 times the amount of power. That is why my economy car can easily exceed 100mph, while it takes 500+hp to break 200mph.

Lets compare the same rider at different power outputs. The jump from 100 to 200 W is pretty significant. Double the power, so 2^(1/3), or 1.26 times the velocity. The jump to 200-300 is still pretty good: 1.5 times the power, 1.14 times the velocity. What about the difference between 500 and 600W? A 20% increase in power only gives a 6% increase in velocity. Still not too bad. What about what we are looking at in this case. A short burst of max power to get away from your companions. Lets assume that Cancellara can achieve a peak output of 1400W during a break. Obviously I don't know his numbers, but I've hit 2200 on the Powertap before, and I have a significant bulk advantage over him, so I think this is reasonable. I think Cozy Beehive calculated approx 1400 in his analysis as well. Even if it is completely wrong, it still illustrates the physics. FYI: At 1000W, you'd see a 3% increase in speed, and at 2000W, 1.6% increase.

So what is the effect of an extra 100W at 1400W rider output? a 2% increase in velocity. So if he was able to go 50kph, with the motor assist, he could do 51kph.

How do you get from squared to cubed?
If 8x is right then compared to the peleton I shouldn't be able to get above 15kph!! But I can.
Sqared, yes. Cubed, ???

 

[Oldman]

On another note, the thread in the clinic on Masters Doping is pretty interesting. I would love to figure out how to lose the 5 lbs I seem to have gained since turning 40!

I can say this to you 'cause my wife is complaining about the same problem and can't see this response. Train harder, not more. Put less in the pie hole. Now you know why I can't answer her question as she has 4X the problem you have. Fortunately still looks great but when they're not happy daddy is always the loser.

 

[Ripper]

I can say this to you 'cause my wife is complaining about the same problem and can't see this response. Train harder, not more. Put less in the pie hole. Now you know why I can't answer her question as she has 4X the problem you have. Fortunately still looks great but when they're not happy daddy is always the loser.

LMAO ... thanks! I think it is partly related to having a kid now as well ... perhaps too much wine by the end of the day

More seriously, yup - one thing I learned a year or so back was less training now, because recovery is the main thing for me. I don't really train harder, but I do focus it more and there is no room for junk miles. The good news is that the power is up as well, and the power to weight is up a bit. So as long as I am not climbing mountains, I am generally OK. Of course, if I'm not racing masters, then I am racing with pros and folks in cat 1 or 2

 

[Parrot23]

So as long as I am not climbing mountains, I am generally OK.

LOL, Fabian agrees ...as in 14,000 feet.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

How do you get from squared to cubed?
If 8x is right then compared to the peleton I shouldn't be able to get above 15kph!! But I can.
Sqared, yes. Cubed, ???

Power = Force x Velocity
Force = Drag Constant x Velocity squared

therefore:
Power = Drag Constant x Velocity cubed.

Read more at wiki.