Carlos Betancur discussion thread

[fauniera]

Clearly, Lavenu has taken leave of his senses.

Betancur has a contract until 2016, there is nothing Lavenu can do about it. If Bananito had found a better contract somewhere else Lavenu for sure would have agreed to terminate the contract, but that (unsurprisingly) didn't happen.

 

[hrotha]

Betancur has a contract until 2016, there is nothing Lavenu can do about it. If Bananito had found a better contract somewhere else Lavenu for sure would have agreed to terminate the contract, but that (unsurprisingly) didn't happen.

I'd be surprised if Betancur doesn't qualify for a fair dismissal by now.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Clearly, Lavenu has taken leave of his senses.

I am less shocked. I see 2 possibilities:

- AG2R can't get out of the contract and Lavenu has to make the best out of it
- Lavenu actually acknowledges the fact that Betancur has an enormous potential (and he won PN this year being not really at the height of his possibilities), but that the team underestimated the "maintenance" needed on him.
The roster of the team giving him only Bardet as a potential candidate to win hillier races / stage races with Peraud not getting any younger, Pozzo being a notch below those 2 (3 if you include Betancur) and Latour needing time to develop, Betancur might still be considered a good option.

 

[inthepink]

Pozzo is not an notch below other Ag2R riders ....

Btencur may have potential but so did alot of riders now working in another field

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I am less shocked. I see 2 possibilities:

- AG2R can't get out of the contract and Lavenu has to make the best out of it
- Lavenu actually acknowledges the fact that Betancur has an enormous potential (and he won PN this year being not really at the height of his possibilities), but that the team underestimated the "maintenance" needed on him.
The roster of the team giving him only Bardet as a potential candidate to win hillier races / stage races with Peraud not getting any younger, Pozzo being a notch below those 2 (3 if you include Betancur) and Latour needing time to develop, Betancur might still be considered a good option.

ag2r is a free for all. they don't have good trainers or managers. they are a horrible team for any rider who isn't extrenely internally disciplines, like pozzovivo and peraud for instance

 

[l.Harm]

What about Bardet?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

What about Bardet?

very big talent and very good disciplined. kepe in mind most pro's are very disciplined because without it they would've never been pro.

 

[veji11]

ag2r is a free for all. they don't have good trainers or managers. they are a horrible team for any rider who isn't extrenely internally disciplines, like pozzovivo and peraud for instance

Free for all is an exaggeration.. But true AG2R (like many many other teams) doesn't have a very centralised way of functionning. Trainers and staff go and meet up with riders, therer a few stages together, but overall riders train by themselves based on the racing calendar and specific training regime set up with the staff. Very very classic stuff that most teams do.

Now true that this might not have been adapted to a rider who needs more "babysitting" because of his character and also because being in Europe means being 6000ks from home. This might have been an aspect not taken into account. AG2R has mostly french riders and few italiens who leave just accross the border from the team's base in the French Alps. When a rider just finished a race and has a small week before the next one, he goes home, rests one day and trains for 3/4 then gets to the location 36 hours before the race.

If you are colombian, you can't do that... What do you do then ? you can't go home where all your friends and family are, you rent a place somewhere or stay in a hotel... quite depressing.

AG2R's manager just acknowledges that on that aspect they probably blew it. Maybe Betancur probably grew depressed in Europe between Paris Nice and the Ardennaises and couldn't wait to leave all this behind and go home... and just didn't want to go back to Europe in June. Not excusing anything, but these are possible explanations

This is a big difference between say a football or rugby team and cycling. If you are a pro football player, you sign with the club and once you are there, you can go out with your teammates, they show you around town, you have double dates with their significant others (if you have one). If you have kids you can have afternoon playdates with the other players' kids, etc... It provides you with a network and god know when you are abroad this network is key.

So there might have been an honest transparent talk between the two, wit Lavenu acknowledging Betancur needs more support in Europe OUTSIDE of races, and Betancur acknowledging he hasn't acted as a pro out of homesickness... Of course had Betancur not had much talent, he would have been thrown out, but if as Lavenu seems to believe it, he really has a very special talent, isn't it worth another try on a better footing ?

 

[Roude Leiw]

ag2r is a free for all. they don't have good trainers or managers. they are a horrible team for any rider who isn't extrenely internally disciplines, like pozzovivo and peraud for instance

I kind of like your very nuanced analysis.... They are not fundamentally different than most of their peers, there might be 3-4 WT teams which do actually have a history of developing talent in a significant way with good feeder teams, but most just don't. As to management, Lavenu heads one of the oldest existing teams, this without the annual whining that the team might fold for lack of sponsors which we are used to from a lot of other teams and without having sold out to a billionaire...

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I kind of like your very nuanced analysis.... They are not fundamentally different than most of their peers, there might be 3-4 WT teams which do actually have a history of developing talent in a significant way with good feeder teams, but most just don't. As to management, Lavenu heads one of the oldest existing teams, this without the annual whining that the team might fold for lack of sponsors which we are used to from a lot of other teams and without having sold out to a billionaire...

I could name numerous wt teams that have very much centralised training, guiding and everything at the highets level:

tinkoff
trek
sky
greenedge
garmin
quickstep
bmc
giant shimano
europcar

and some I don't know like astana and katusha

these are hardly a few teams....

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

the only thing I imagine that happened is that betancurt talked with lavenu this vuelta in the past days and they have come up with a plan to keep betancurt in check. ag2r know they have the rarest and biggest talent they could possibly have and betancurt doesn't like to be peloton fodder like he is now and may have at least some ambition.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Ryo, i don't want to hijack the thread, so i leave it at this, most of the teams you cite are not different. Quite some trek riders are actually living here in Luxembourg and i see them training on the roads here. They are usually not in a bunch of 20 with team cars behind, but more like in pairs and someones father or uncle with a scooter if they do some specific training.... This hardly qualifies as highly centralised and organised in my book

 

[fauniera]

Isn't Betancur still trained by Bartoli?

 

[Roude Leiw]

Isn't Betancur still trained by Bartoli?

He is and seems to be based in Tuscany in Italy when in Europe

 

[ILovecycling]

lol pathetic Lavenu,he realised if they will do great winter with him,he will destroy giro,nibali or no nibali...

fvck I hoped he will go to opqs or alonso,ag2r won't keep him close to training,they are bunch of amateurs.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Isn't Betancur still trained by Bartoli?

no and he never was. just a publicity stunt for both. bartoli is hardly a trainer and besides what trainer allows his rider to srtay 4 months in colombia without ever showing him his training data

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Ryo, i don't want to hijack the thread, so i leave it at this, most of the teams you cite are not different. Quite some trek riders are actually living here in Luxembourg and i see them training on the roads here. They are usually not in a bunch of 20 with team cars behind, but more like in pairs and someones father or uncle with a scooter if they do some specific training.... This hardly qualifies as highly centralised and organised in my book

trek are trained by guerclinea who checks their data on a dialy basis. he is one of teh best trainers in cycling. ina g2r there is no one like that. betancurt is gone for 4 months and ag2r never even know or ask about training data on a daily basis. that means there is no proper guiding any riders there.

 

[veji11]

Ryo, i don't want to hijack the thread, so i leave it at this, most of the teams you cite are not different. Quite some trek riders are actually living here in Luxembourg and i see them training on the roads here. They are usually not in a bunch of 20 with team cars behind, but more like in pairs and someones father or uncle with a scooter if they do some specific training.... This hardly qualifies as highly centralised and organised in my book

exactly... let's not turn AG2R into a team where riders are abandoned to their own devices as soon as the race is over whereas in many other teams riders live together / train together, etc... The way AG2R does it is like most of other teams... You quote Garmin, but they work the same way. Sure the organises tests and special training sessions for which they fly people to Girona, and because it is a well established and old teams, quite a few long tenured riders live there, but they still function most of the time with riders training by themselves or in small groups when outside race time. Same goes for Europcar : Quite a few of their riders don't live in Western France where the team is based.

 

[veji11]

lol pathetic Lavenu,he realised if they will do great winter with him,he will destroy giro,nibali or no nibali...

fvck I hoped he will go to opqs or alonso,ag2r won't keep him close to training,they are bunch of amateurs.

what on earth is that s***t comment ??? Honestly, are you drunk ? Why on earth would AG2R be a bunch of amateurs ??? Their result for the last 2 years, the way they have kept Pozzo growing, have had solid teams on all GTs with good leutenants and dedicated gregarii allowing leaders to achieve good results, all this screams of pathetic amateurism ? Gee.. Some people here.

 

[veji11]

trek are trained by guerclinea who checks their data on a dialy basis. he is one of teh best trainers in cycling. ina g2r there is no one like that. betancurt is gone for 4 months and ag2r never even know or ask about training data on a daily basis. that means there is no proper guiding any riders there.

Do you think AG2R riders train to sticks and stones ? Don't you think they asked Betancur for data ? Don't you think this has been part of the whole problem with Betancur, that he doesn't give you the information you asked him to ?

I am not pretending that AG2R are the top notch team in the world in terms of training regime and data analysis, but to see people here paint them as semi *** amateurs is mind boggling. This is a pro team with consistently solid results in stage racing since 2011, an efficient supporting squad of riders (guys like Dupont, Bouet, Vuillermoz are all great teammates and leutenants)... Really I am amazed and surprised by this barrage.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

exactly... let's not turn AG2R into a team where riders are abandoned to their own devices as soon as the race is over whereas in many other teams riders live together / train together, etc... The way AG2R does it is like most of other teams... You quote Garmin, but they work the same way. Sure the organises tests and special training sessions for which they fly people to Girona, and because it is a well established and old teams, quite a few long tenured riders live there, but they still function most of the time with riders training by themselves or in small groups when outside race time. Same goes for Europcar : Quite a few of their riders don't live in Western France where the team is based.

ugh what bull**** is this. in garmin(and all thsoe other teams I named) they have trainers and fysiologists scientists whateve rthey call them in english who monitor all rider date on a daily basis. that certianly doesn't happen at ag2r because otherwise they would've know what the **** happened with betancurt

 

[veji11]

ugh what bull**** is this. in garmin(and all thsoe other teams I named) they have trainers and fysiologists scientists whateve rthey call them in english who monitor all rider date on a daily basis. that certianly doesn't happen at ag2r because otherwise they would've know what the **** happened with betancurt

Man THEY KNEW what was happening with him to the extent he gave them data. But if he didn't what can they do ? The situation has been ongoing since May with AG2R asking for data, training reports etc, asking for him to come back to Europe to race, faced with his non coming, not informing them, etc...

I am not pretending that AG2R did things right, they probably made mistakes, but to pretend that a with "a serious pro team unlike those w**kers at AG2R this would never have happened" is moronic.

 

[hrotha]

I think you guys are mistakingly taking Ryo's words to mean some cycling teams operate as a football team or something, training together all the time and what not. Far from it. But in some teams you get a personal trainer who is more on top of things, who constantly checks your power files from your training rides, who lays down your training program and goals, your diet, etc. They don't need to be physically there with the rider every day, especially not in the 21st century.

I don't know if Ryo is right about the way AG2R works, but I thought what he means was pretty clear. And I don't think he meant it's AG2R's fault, but rather that their approach doesn't work with unstable riders that need constant coaching, both physical and mental.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I think you guys are mistakingly taking Ryo's words to mean some cycling teams operate as a football team or something, training together all the time and what not. Far from it. But in some teams you get a personal trainer who is more on top of things, who constantly checks your power files from your training rides, who lays down your training program and goals, your diet, etc. They don't need to be physically there with the rider every day, especially not in the 21st century.

I don't know if Ryo is right about the way AG2R works, but I thought what he means was pretty clear. And I don't think he meant it's AG2R's fault, but rather that their approach doesn't work with unstable riders that need constant coaching, both physical and mental.

this I mean exactly

 

[veji11]

I think you guys are mistakingly taking Ryo's words to mean some cycling teams operate as a football team or something, training together all the time and what not. Far from it. But in some teams you get a personal trainer who is more on top of things, who constantly checks your power files from your training rides, who lays down your training program and goals, your diet, etc. They don't need to be physically there with the rider every day, especially not in the 21st century.

I don't know if Ryo is right about the way AG2R works, but I thought what he means was pretty clear. And I don't think he meant it's AG2R's fault, but rather that their approach doesn't work with unstable riders that need constant coaching, both physical and mental.

Fair enough, but again AG2R operates like the vast majority of teams... They use data analysis, training reports and planning, etc like most other team. the list he gives of super organised teams is highly dubious. I mean come on Europcar ? a guy like Voeckler has publicly said he doesn't use SRMs so how is this super pro team to control his metrics every day and hour ?

Is AG2R not as centralized as some teams in the circuit ? sure. Is AG2R in any way or form less structured than the immense majority of WT teams ? no way.

That AG2R is partly to blame for the Betancur fiasco and failed to recognise the specific "handling" required seems evident. That this is due to some subpar organisation compared to "many" other teams in the circuit is laughable.