Cav: "The Vuelta has become stupid"

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Libertine Seguros said:
The big thing that went wrong was they had the perfect storm in 2012. They presented the worst route known to man that year, but a combination of factors came about that prevented the race from being the humongous failure it probably should have been: [..]

Nice analysis, thanks for sharing.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
The big thing that went wrong was they had the perfect storm in 2012. They presented the worst route known to man that year, but a combination of factors came about that prevented the race from being the humongous failure it probably should have been:

1) Contador's ban meant no Giro or Tour for him, meaning the Vuelta was his only viable target year-long
2) Valverde had an illness and injury-ridden Tour and didn't show GC-wise, meaning he saved energy to stagehunt (successfully) and focused on the Vuelta
3) Purito had a career year and Indian summer and the Tour route being so biased to time triallists meant he didn't race it.
So these meant you had the top 3 Spanish cyclists, two of whom specialise in short- and mid-length steep ascents.

Then:
4) Froome fading from his Tour form meant you had an additional wildcard, though he dropped away in the final week.
5) The broadcasting of only the final 60-90 minutes of stages meant that the total lack of action in the early running was not as clear from the TV, making each stage look exciting.
6) With Fuente Dé we got a stage for the ages, and one of the few truly legendary stages the Vuelta has in its back pocket, the best since Pajares 2005.

This meant that the 2012 Vuelta, despite its abysmal route planning, was a resounding success, so Unipublic thought it best to repeat the formula again and again: lots of short-to-mid-length and steep HTFs and MTFs (Cav isn't right when he calls it 11 MTFs, it's 11 uphill finishes. Even so, it's too much). They looked at the races in the late 2000s and saw small gaps being produced and didn't think "gaps are getting smaller on our straightforward mountain stages. Let's increase the gaps by making the mountain stages tougher and lengthening the TT mileage to mean riders have to attack earlier". Rather, they thought "gaps are getting smaller on our straightforward mountain stages. In order to get bigger gaps, we need more of them, because if we have gaps of 15 seconds on ten stages, that's 2'30, that's a good gap!"

Of course, part of the problem is simple: Spain's best cyclists at the moment are Valverde, Purito and Contador, and they're all the wrong side of 30. If you remember back at the turn of the millennium, the Vuelta was much more favourable to the powerhouse riders - the likes of Olano were all-round enough to contend for any GT, but how else would you explain the likes of Ángel Casero and The Aitorminator® winning? Not possible on current routes. Hell, Isidro Nozal was rumbling up the 5% mountains of the 2003 Vuelta all the way to the penultimate day when he lost the jersey in an MTT. The two TT specialists mentioned above won in 2001 and 2002 on final day TTs (which have sadly gone the way of the dodo). The Vuelta at the moment seems to be designed to favour puncheurs and wispy climbers who can force their way up 20% slopes best because that's the kind of riders at the forefront of Spanish cycling. Just like how in Cipollini and Ale-Jet's heydays a whole bunch of flat stages materialized in the Giro, or how when Lance returned to the Tour the TTT came back.

When Valverde and Purito retire, maybe the Vuelta will change again. With Contador still around maybe it becomes an all-rounders' race again with some finesse climbs as well as hell-slopes. If he isn't, then maybe it becomes a pure climber's race for Rubén Fernández or Marc Soler, or maybe it's all up-and-down-all-day for Mikel Landa and a bunch of stages in País Vasco emerge. Or Lobato becomes a beast in super-long slightly hilly flat stages, so they fill the race with 230km stages with a hill or two near the end to be worlds prep but have Lobato win all the time.

Good and informing post.

I'll never forget the 2012 Vuelta. After such horrendous racing in Giro and Tour, the Vuelta was freakin epic. 3 of my favorite riders going at it, toe to toe, for the whole Vuelta. Fuente De was awesome, but Cuitu Negru was awesome as well! Damn I miss when Purito, Contador and Valv was at their peak at the same time. And the real emergence of Quintana didnt make it less interesting!
 
One more reason to dislike this "idiot".

The problem with Vuelta is that the mountain stages are poorly design. Either that or the topography of the peninsula does not allow it.

Don't care for what he said.

Now let's say that the Vuelta decides to go the "Giro way" and designs a better and tougher parcours. The question would be who of the big hitters would go after the Tour? It would scare almost everyone. Maybe the third GT needs to be soft just to not scare people off. Just saying.
 
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Escarabajo said:
One more reason to dislike this "idiot".

The problem with Vuelta is that the mountain stages are poorly design. Either that or the topography of the peninsula does not allow it.

Don't care for what he said.

Now let's say that the Vuelta decides to go the "Giro way" and designs a better and tougher parcours. The question would be who of the big hitters would go after the Tour? It would scare almost everyone. Maybe the third GT needs to be soft just to not scare people off. Just saying.

I dont like Cav either. Fact is Froome, Nibali, Valv, Quintana, Purito etc. chose to go to the Vuelta and only Purito not riding GC there. The Vuelta has never attracted more big names than now, surely? Before 2005 or so it was more or less an domestic affair in the top GC.
 
I can't help but to agree with Libertine here. The way the Vuelta has become is a product of circumstances, and when those circumstances change - maybe the parcours will improve.

This year, only Stage 11 and 16 are really passable as hard mountain stages. 14, 15 and 19 are borderline cases. The thing is, the occasional punchy finish is good, but to have such a finish stage after stage is terrible. To attract some bigger names, a few of those stages could be turned into flat finishes instead - it's not like there is more than 8 minutes of action on those climbs anyway.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
When Valverde and Purito retire, maybe the Vuelta will change again. With Contador still around maybe it becomes an all-rounders' race again with some finesse climbs as well as hell-slopes. If he isn't, then maybe it becomes a pure climber's race for Rubén Fernández or Marc Soler, or maybe it's all up-and-down-all-day for Mikel Landa and a bunch of stages in País Vasco emerge. Or Lobato becomes a beast in super-long slightly hilly flat stages, so they fill the race with 230km stages with a hill or two near the end to be worlds prep but have Lobato win all the time.

Or, you know, one can dream that they tailor it to Txurruka and Madrazo and give minute time-bonuses for intermediate sprints to reward attacking riders.

To the OP - Cav talks sense when he says the fetishization of HTF/MTFs by the Vuelta is silly. He doesn't talk sense when he says that no one wants to do the Vuelta. The names in the last 5-6 years have usually been pretty solidly competitive with the Giro (if not the form of said names, leading to guys like Cobo and Horner winning). I certainly spend time thinking of how stages and the balance of the Vuelta could be better, but the short MTFs serve their purpose as youtube cycling crack - certainly not the complex symphony of, say, the first week of this year's Giro, but I don't necessarily expect that of the Vuelta. I've kind of liked the lack of top sprinters this year, which has made the stage finishes unpredictable and the sprints totally crazy. I mean, we've had Stuyven, Sbaragli, Ewan, Van Poppel all winning breakthrough victories on bunch sprints. It's been fun.
 
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Ramon Koran said:
Lets face it sprint stages are boring, they are slowly going. 5 years ago it was common to have 8 stages for sprinters in the tour, this year there were 5. Slowly but surely they are being cut down and replaced by entertainig stages with cobbles uphill finishes.... Seems good to me.

Sprint stages are boring, except for the last 2km.

Just like 80% of the vuelta's "mountain" stages

Only difference is that the exciting part of a flat stage lasts 2'20'' and that of a mountain stage 6', or maybe 10', if the finish is steep enough.
 
May 28, 2012
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Well, the Vuelta used to be won by sprinters in the previous century, on several occasions. However, the winner should be the most versatile rider, and right now, only climbing, and a little tt'ing decide the race. Superior endurance, tactics/anticipation and descending skills are close to useless. Next years the Vuelta needs more stages that finish downhill, and the first week needs more hilly stages that not only contain one single ramp at the end, like the Giro offers once in a while. NOT stages tailor-made for Cav.
 
Jul 27, 2014
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Pentacycle said:
Well, the Vuelta used to be won by sprinters in the previous century, on several occasions. However, the winner should be the most versatile rider, and right now, only climbing, and a little tt'ing decide the race. Superior endurance, tactics/anticipation and descending skills are close to useless. Next years the Vuelta needs more stages that finish downhill, and the first week needs more hilly stages that not only contain one single ramp at the end, like the Giro offers once in a while. NOT stages tailor-made for Cav.
Stages tailor made for Cav would have to have some hills in because pancake stages are tailor made for someone to beat Cav
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Pentacycle said:
Well, the Vuelta used to be won by sprinters in the previous century, on several occasions. However, the winner should be the most versatile rider, and right now, only climbing, and a little tt'ing decide the race. Superior endurance, tactics/anticipation and descending skills are close to useless. Next years the Vuelta needs more stages that finish downhill, and the first week needs more hilly stages that not only contain one single ramp at the end, like the Giro offers once in a while. NOT stages tailor-made for Cav.
Exactly, the Vuelta should just be a little bitt more diverrse, nobody expects the Vuelta to be like the Giro.
Just get rid of a few stages that are nothing but flat with an uphill sprint at the end and create 2 or even 3 good hilly stages and one descent finish.
I still think that every leap-year we should have the Vuelta in May and the Giro right now, but that's a whole nother thing...
 
Mar 13, 2015
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MatParker117 said:
LaFlorecita said:
“No-one wants to go to the Vuelta any more unless they crashed out of the Tour de France."

Except for Nairito, Froome, Valverde, Purito, Aru, Landa, Chaves, Majka, Sagan, Degenkolb, Moreno, Pozzovivo, Ewan etc etc

In the last ten years only two defending tour champs have ridden the vuelta in the same year.

And how many Giro winners have ridden the Tour in the last 10 years? Your point is..? :confused:
 
Mr.White said:
MatParker117 said:
LaFlorecita said:
“No-one wants to go to the Vuelta any more unless they crashed out of the Tour de France."

Except for Nairito, Froome, Valverde, Purito, Aru, Landa, Chaves, Majka, Sagan, Degenkolb, Moreno, Pozzovivo, Ewan etc etc

In the last ten years only two defending tour champs have ridden the vuelta in the same year.

And how many Giro winners have ridden the Tour in the last 10 years? Your point is..? :confused:

Savoldelli'05
Basso'06 (Didn't race due to Puerto but the intention was there)
Menchov'09
Basso'10
Contador'11
Hesjedal'12
Contador'15

Note: Contador'08 didn't have the chance to race the Tour since Astana wasn't invited.
 
Then stay at the TdF where they have days and days of flat stages designed for sprints, of course thats his viewpoint since when the road begins to incline he has to find the nearest vehicle to cling on to :D
 
I kind of agree with Cavendish, and prefer the overall pace of a GT that has eight or nine possible sprint stages; but in the current crop of cyclists, the most exciting sprinters are Kristoff, Sagan, Matthews, and that type. I don't really care for the cobble stages in GTs and, notably, they have only come about at the same time the Ronde was ruined.
 
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skidmark said:
I've kind of liked the lack of top sprinters this year, which has made the stage finishes unpredictable and the sprints totally crazy. I mean, we've had Stuyven, Sbaragli, Ewan, Van Poppel all winning breakthrough victories on bunch sprints. It's been fun.

I happen to think Cavendish was talking about no big name sprinters, and as the above shows, he's right. Greipel last rode the Vuelta in 09, Kittel and Cavendish in 11 (and Cavendish abandoned on stage 4).
 
Boo f#$king hoo.

None of the climbers whinged when there were something like 8 or more stages suitable for sprinters at the TdF from '08 onwards.
None of the TT'ers groan and moan when GT's have little or no TT mileage.

If you only want flat sprints stick to the first week of the TdF, Eneco, Poland, and the Scheldeprijs.

The Chavendouche returns.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Not much ado about Cav.

Vuelta always has been the third GT on the calendar, some even used it as a prep for the Tour, a lot of them as a prep for the Worlds. Never heard them complain. Good riddens if that means teams like MTN, OGE and Trek can let their young sprinters win a GT stage.
 
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TMP402 said:
skidmark said:
I've kind of liked the lack of top sprinters this year, which has made the stage finishes unpredictable and the sprints totally crazy. I mean, we've had Stuyven, Sbaragli, Ewan, Van Poppel all winning breakthrough victories on bunch sprints. It's been fun.

I happen to think Cavendish was talking about no big name sprinters, and as the above shows, he's right. Greipel last rode the Vuelta in 09, Kittel and Cavendish in 11 (and Cavendish abandoned on stage 4).
Bouhanni, Degenkolb and Sagan all started, outside of the main 4 (Kittel, Cav, Greipel, Kristoff) they're the best and can beat them on their day :rolleyes: :confused:
 
Lots of great points here, I agree with most! Love the hills and mts and GC and rouler fights, but I also like seeing sprints. I also don't mind a few pan flat stages. Not so exciting for the viewer but it does give the GC guys a break and a rest (perhaps helping make the elusive double just that bit less of an impossbility). There are lots of hilly stages and even mountain stages that are totally boring until the last km or so as well.... the only difference being we know the winners will be climbers rather than sprinters.
 
I have no problem with the Vuelta using some of the terrain they are using. It is just used in the same way. So instead of flat for 180km, then 2km kick upwards to the line at 10%.....why not to with flat for 165km, 2km sharp climb and descent, then a 15km pursuit to the line?

Like maybe just once or twice to break the monotony of the ramp finishes. I mean I like Chaves, Dan Martin and Purito, but you could still mix around a few stages and give these 5 stages at which to aim.

The Tour is getting just as bad. Counting the TTT, there were something like 9 uphill finishes out of 10 stages in the middle of the Tour.

Yes, we are all bored with the Gap - Manse - Gap trick, but they could do that in the Vuelta once or twice to spice up some of those stages in the first week.

Like this: https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/04/Giro-dItalia-2015-st04_Spezia_profile.jpg

Or they could make the sprinting stages more fun.

Like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Tour_de_France_2012_-_Etappe_18.png
Or this: http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2015/06/03/1/stage_15_profile_670.jpg
Or this: https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/05/TDF14_ETAP-01_PROFIL.jpg

These stages were won by Cavendish, Greipel and Kittel respectively. None of them shaked up GC, none of them are particularly remembered. But the racing was quite good, and the winners had to work to get over the climbs, and had to work to get back in contention.

Just my two cents. I know some people hate sprinting. I quite like it, but I recognise that a sprinting stage is usually boring. That is why I say mix them up a bit with some racing mid-stage.

Not with roundabouts and tight corners in the last 5km though!