Cavendish: class of his own?

[King Boonen]

Was a general comment petal.

Yes there are, but many of them are completely out of his control.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sorry I must have missed the moderator tag under your name. When I feel insulted I tend to insult back, and your condescension isn't going to change that I'm afraid, pudding.

 

[JimmyFingers]

There's no way Cav only produces 1200 watts, even I can do that...

Sorry, was going from memory. It's from an artcile from 2009 called Science of Cav that Granville quoted in the other Cavendish thread:

“Mark’s frontal area is tiny when compared to the likes of Boonen or Petacchi. That means he creates less drag, so where Cav is producing 1,400 to 1,500 watts to go 75kph, Boonen needs 1,700 watts and still goes slightly slower. The key to his speed is the watts he puts out per square meter of his frontal area.”

Cav generally puts out very low numbers compared to other sprinters, that was the point.

 

[Netserk]

Why should a mod tag change anything? It's just as bad to insult another poster as it is to insult a mod.

So please chill

 

[King Boonen]

Why should a mod tag change anything? It's just as bad to insult another poster as it is to insult a mod.

So please chill

I think he meant that I shouldn't ask him not to do it because I'm not a moderator. you know, like only the police should stop someone committing a crime.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well if I offended your delicate sensibilities let me be the first to apologise. However I would gently suggest that if asking someone if they are on stupid pills is too much for you then perhaps this place isn't the place for you. In fact maybe the internet isn't.

I'm sure the poster in question is very grateful to have you two shining knights to come to his rescue.

 

[blackcat]

Actually he would probably have a bigger one. But he doesn't need it to be ridiculously fast. Drugs made Lance the athlete he was, I don't think you could say the same for Cav. As I said he's a freak of nature. That's why on the other thread they were discussing his 'flow', the ability to read the situation at the sharp end in slow motion and likening it to Pele.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be better using drugs, particularly recovery ones, but if someone is putting out twelve hundred watts and beating guys putting out 1600-1700 then there is something remarkable about that rider. Listen to Robbie McEwan talk about him. He's a uniquely talented rider, Cav not McEwan, although he was as well.

talking about the drag coefficient on speed. higher speed, more influence on drag

once saw a 2009ish stage where cav went from around 250 into a head wind.

freire got his wheel for 150 metres and popped his nose out, and he went backwards, and finished in cavs slipstream. perhaps, perhaps, Cipo at his best would have used Cav for for that leadout, but it was truly remarkable to watch Oscar go backwards relative to Cav when he had been in his slipstream for about 150 metres with only 100 metres left, INTO A HEADWIND. WOW!

brilliant example of Cav's raw talent. so he cannot ride an individual pursuit or team pursuit equiv to their olympic riders. but he can win a 3km prologue.

he cant ride an ergo power test. but he will have the most phenomenal sprinter palmares ever. i cant ever see this being surpasses. to that cav, chapeau

 

[JimmyFingers]

Why should a mod tag change anything? It's just as bad to insult another poster as it is to insult a mod.

So please chill

Doesn't quite tally with your sigs my friend

 

[blackcat]

oh yeah, but he dopes no doubt. he would struggle to finish stages that go thru cat 2 and cat 3 climbs. and what about the cycling apartment in belgium he lived in.

 

[JimmyFingers]

talking about the drag coefficient on speed. higher speed, more influence on drag

once saw a 2009ish stage where cav went from around 250 into a head wind.

freire got his wheel for 150 metres and popped his nose out, and he went backwards, and finished in cavs slipstream. perhaps, perhaps, Cipo at his best would have used Cav for for that leadout, but it was truly remarkable to watch Oscar go backwards relative to Cav when he had been in his slipstream for about 150 metres with only 100 metres left, INTO A HEADWIND. WOW!

brilliant example of Cav's raw talent. so he cannot ride an individual pursuit or team pursuit equiv to their olympic riders. but he can win a 3km prologue.

he cant ride an ergo power test. but he will have the most phenomenal sprinter palmares ever. i cant ever see this being surpasses. to that cav, chapeau

Thank you for a succint summation. This is what I am driving at, that Cav's greatness is not down to pure power. Lance's success was built on drugs and more drugs from an early age, Cav's isn't. There's a strong chance Cav dopes or has doped at some point in his career, but he's not someone who's success you can solely attribute to drugs no matter the level of your personal cynicism.

Hopefully that's not too controversial a viewpoint. It is one that people seem to be struggling to comprehend.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

And yet if he was producing 200W less, he probably wouldn't win a single Tour stage.

This is, of course, complete bilge written by someone who has not bothered to think, and lacks the common sense to realise that guys weighting 67kilos do not achieve the same end as guys weighing 80 kilos, in the same way.

A guy pushing 1600W vs someone pushing 1800W needs to be around 14% more aerodynamic.

Using the area of a circle as a rough proxy, 14% difference is exactly the cross sectional area difference between a 30cm waist and a 32cm waist.

It is thus extremely easy to how such aero differences could be made when you're talking about people with very different height, waist and chest measurements.

 

[Netserk]

This is, of course, complete bilge written by someone who has not bothered to think, and lacks the common sense to realise that guys weighting 67kilos do not achieve the same end as guys weighing 80 kilos, in the same way.

A guy pushing 1600W vs someone pushing 1800W needs to be around 14% more aerodynamic.

Using the area of a circle as a rough proxy, 14% difference is exactly the cross sectional area difference between a 30cm waist and a 32cm waist.

It is thus extremely easy to how such aero differences could be made when you're talking about people with very different height, waist and chest measurements.

I'm not talking about 200 less than his rivals, but 200 less than what he does now.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I'm not talking about 200 less than his rivals, but 200 less than what he does now.

Apologies in that case, although I'm not sure how it's that relevant. Cav has less to lose than most on wattage, given the lower starting point, which would tend to bode well for a career as long as he wants.

 

[King Boonen]

Well if I offended your delicate sensibilities let me be the first to apologise. However I would gently suggest that if asking someone if they are on stupid pills is too much for you then perhaps this place isn't the place for you. In fact maybe the internet isn't.

I'm sure the poster in question is very grateful to have you two shining knights to come to his rescue.

Typical keyboard warrior, bored with you now though.

 

[King Boonen]

Apologies in that case, although I'm not sure how it's that relevant. Cav has less to lose than most on wattage, given the lower starting point, which would tend to bode well for a career as long as he wants.

Maybe, depends on how physiology works though. I'm guessing it isn't like car engines where higher powered ones tend to lose a larger percentage due to wear and tear compared to lower power ones, will be interesting to see, especially as a few young guys (relative to Cav) are now coming through the ranks.

 

[blackcat]

This is, of course, complete bilge written by someone who has not bothered to think, and lacks the common sense to realise that guys weighting 67kilos do not achieve the same end as guys weighing 80 kilos, in the same way.

A guy pushing 1600W vs someone pushing 1800W needs to be around 14% more aerodynamic.

Using the area of a circle as a rough proxy, 14% difference is exactly the cross sectional area difference between a 30cm waist and a 32cm waist.

It is thus extremely easy to how such aero differences could be made when you're talking about people with very different height, waist and chest measurements.

no just that. see his sprinting posture. see then, how upright mcewen is.

so his technique is far more aero than others also. double down.

 

[SeriousSam]

On stupid pills tonight? Point me to where I said Cav wouldn't benefit from drugs?

Point me to where I said you said Cav wouldn't benefit from drugs? That should take a while, so in the meantime, I point you to where you said he'd benefit less from drugs, which is laughably wrong:

So while I'm sure an array of drugs would enhance Cav's performance, perhaps the usual ones you'd expect a sprinter to be popping like steroids aren't as helpful to Cav. Unlike Greipel for example.

I suppose your passionate defense of Cav just wasn't complete without a subtle suggestion that he has less incentive to dope than his main rival.
It was fun how quickly you changed your opinion when you were called out on it.

I'm sure the poster in question is very grateful to have you two shining knights to come to his rescue.

I am. The internet is a harsh place, people standing up for what's right warms my heart.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Point me to where I said you said Cav wouldn't benefit from drugs? That should take a while, so in the meantime, I point you to where you said he'd benefit less from drugs, which is laughably wrong:

I suppose your passionate defense of Cav just wasn't complete without a subtle suggestion that he has less incentive to dope than his main rival.
It was fun how quickly you changed your opinion when you were called out on it.

I am. The internet is a harsh place, people standing up for what's right warms my heart.

No. Still on the pills obviously. You're just presenting a strawman of what I was saying, and I certainly wasn't suggesting Greipel had more on an 'incentive', was simply using him as an example of a sprinter without the natural advantages Cav has and how they would benefit more from PEDs.

And your first point wasn't a point at all. It was just a series of selective quotes and then a sarcastic 'dear oh dear' at the end. So you didn't call me on anything, simply failed to grasp the finer points of my argument, something which you continue to do so, all the while attempting to twist my words to suit what you would have liked me to say.

 

[spalco]

Point me to where I said you said Cav wouldn't benefit from drugs? That should take a while, so in the meantime, I point you to where you said he'd benefit less from drugs, which is laughably wrong:

Whether or not that hypothesis is true in regards to Cavendish can be discussed, but I really don't see how it can be controversial in general. That certain athletes could take a larger advantage from doping than others seems like common sense to me.

 

[autologous]

Cav would benefit less from drugs? Clowns.

Cav also benefits less from holding onto a car, cause he's so small and aero that the car tow is actually saving him less wattage than someone like Greipel, whose weight and surface area and lack of natural advantages mean he most definitely benefits from a car pull.

That's why it's obvious that Cav would never ever ever hold onto a car. QED

 

[spalco]

How strange, that Cavendish holding onto a car still has never been captured on pictures. He must be Bigfoot.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The car bit was a cool story bro.

Think it would help to clarify my point, made many pages back and illustrated with various examples but now lost.

Netserk asked if Cav and Greipel would gain the same benefit from a 5% increase in power, that 5% number being the only quantifiable bit of data in the question. I posited that it would benefit Cav more asd the lighter, smaller rider.

But a 5% increase in power would also bring into play other variables that would influence my original point: that Cav winning is down to much more than simple raw power. This is backed up by the fact that in sprints he is putting down much less power than his bigger competitors.

In basic terms there are generally two ways to achieve speed: big and powerful or light and nippy. For the first route, in human terms that could mean building muscle mass. This gives you greater power and the ability to create more torque on the crank and so propel yourself and the bike forward faster. But there is a concomitant increase in weight and bulk, so that power increase is offset by greater inertia and greater drag. In a way it becomes a vicious circle: more muscles means more weight and more drag so the solution is even more power to overcome it. Forsteman is a good example of this, or Greipel, and I picked him because his body shape is the opposite of Cav.

One of Cav's huge strengths is his size. It makes him more aerodynamic than a rider like Greipel, which means to go as fast he needs to produce less power. Also his weight means he will naturally accelerate faster than Greipel, as will his shorter leg length. Given that 80% of a rider's power output is used to punch through the air, this reduced drag is a massive advantage to Cav.

Also being smaller means a smaller bike. Smaller bikes are more aero, and also are stiffer, which means less power is dissipated into flex and more into pushing the rider forward.

For Cav I reckon it's a delicate balancing act getting the right power to weight ratio to give him optimum acceleration. Last year he lost weight but also seemed to lose some power to get him over Box Hill. Build muscle and you negate some of his weight and aerodynamic advantage over his rivals, at which point it becomes more of a drag race and the most powerful wins.

So as far as PEDs go, something like steroids that build muscle mass may not benefit Cav much at all. What would would be recovery ones like Hgh or Poe.

I do lure coursing with lurchers and sighthounds. A whippet will beat a greyhound over 100m, the greyhound will win over longer distances. Greipel probably can clock higher top speed but Cav will always out-accelerate him. Which means that if Cav times it right, no-one can beat him while he's still accelerating due to the delicate balance between power, weight and aerodynamic efficiency. Once he hits top speed the bigger, more powerful riders will claw him back but by that time he's already won.

 

[Netserk]

All you explain is why Cav is faster than Greipel despite a smaller power output. You don't explain why Cav should get a greater benefit of an additional 5% in power than Greipel.

Why don't they both increase their speed by 2.47%?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Didn't I say because he is smaller and lighter? If you could increase power without a weight penalty it would benefit Cav more I think, marginally at least. With a weight penalty it would even out, and may actually penalise him. s I tried to illustrate, there are a lot of variables and the sums needed are well beyond me.

This is all anecdotal, I'm not trying to present this as concrete fact, this is me theorising using logic and a limited grasp of physics.

 

[Netserk]

I'm not talking about 50W more power to both, but 5% more power to both.

Cav: 1400 --> 1470 (Gain: 70W)

Greipel: 1800 --> 1890 (Gain: 90W)

(The numbers are made up)

The only difference before vs. after is 5% more power. No more no less.