Cavendish: class of his own?

[JimmyFingers]

Can't answer that definitively, sorry, but my theory would be smaller, lighter riders experience greater performance boosts from a smaller power increase than a heavier rider.

To get a more definitive answer you'd need to know their relative weights, current peak power outputs i.e. what they're putting when in full sprint and their relative aero efficiency.

 

[richtea]

But the discussion is about proportional not absolute power gains! The aerodynamic advantages of the smaller rider are offset by the fact the larger benefits from a greater increase in absolute power.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I know, which is why I need there greater quantaitive data needed than a simple 5% gain, so I was theorising.

I keep thinking of cars, and how a smaller,lighter, mid-engined car with drastically lower power will beat a heavier, bigger-engined car over a lap, as evidenced by the development in F1, particularly that of Colin CHapman and his mid-engined Lotus' that beat the front-engined, more powerful Ferraris in the 50s or sixties. And pun-intended

 

[zigmeister]

Numbers are just conjecture and hearsay regarding Cav. They never have released any power data.

Greipel on the other hand has many times released his power data and is readily available.

We have to just assume due to his smaller size and slightly less weight, and aero position, he isn't putting the most power out compared to other sprinters.

Also, Cav didn't win the Green Jersey at last year's TDF. That was Sagan. Cav got smoked a few times in the sprints when he didn't have a perfect leadout against the other top sprinters in the sport who are also at the TDF.

Most other events, you only have a few other guys who are top 10 sprinters that maybe are going against Cav. Cav is definitely the guy to beat in a bunch sprint though. I think he has improved his sprinting by working on finding a way to win without a perfect leadout.

This year's TDF should be a big tell, since he will have a dedicated sprint leadout.

With that said, regarding being clean. He isn't doing anything spectacular that other guys are doing in a race, except the last 300m.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Clown.

Cav is joint record holder of most wins as a neo-pro. Presumably T-Mobile gave the young brit full lead out support...

As for getting smoked at last year's Tour, that is absolute total nonsense - he won every sprint he seriously contested. Griepel's wins came when Cav had crashed (twice) or was given worse than no leadout, a completely inept guidance which left him 30m back and starting his sprint at 400m to go.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Again this is anecdotal, but I think the generally accepted view is you need to get the jump on him to beat him, because if he starts before you do his acceleration is so devastating unless you're gone when he kicks into top gear you won't catch him.

But he does get beaten, gets caught out of position and mis-times it, but if not you'll always fancy him to win.

Legend.

 

[blackcat]

The car bit was a cool story bro.

Think it would help to clarify my point, made many pages back and illustrated with various examples but now lost.

Netserk asked if Cav and Greipel would gain the same benefit from a 5% increase in power, that 5% number being the only quantifiable bit of data in the question. I posited that it would benefit Cav more asd the lighter, smaller rider.

But a 5% increase in power would also bring into play other variables that would influence my original point: that Cav winning is down to much more than simple raw power. This is backed up by the fact that in sprints he is putting down much less power than his bigger competitors.

In basic terms there are generally two ways to achieve speed: big and powerful or light and nippy. For the first route, in human terms that could mean building muscle mass. This gives you greater power and the ability to create more torque on the crank and so propel yourself and the bike forward faster. But there is a concomitant increase in weight and bulk, so that power increase is offset by greater inertia and greater drag. In a way it becomes a vicious circle: more muscles means more weight and more drag so the solution is even more power to overcome it. Forsteman is a good example of this, or Greipel, and I picked him because his body shape is the opposite of Cav.

One of Cav's huge strengths is his size. It makes him more aerodynamic than a rider like Greipel, which means to go as fast he needs to produce less power. Also his weight means he will naturally accelerate faster than Greipel, as will his shorter leg length. Given that 80% of a rider's power output is used to punch through the air, this reduced drag is a massive advantage to Cav.

Also being smaller means a smaller bike. Smaller bikes are more aero, and also are stiffer, which means less power is dissipated into flex and more into pushing the rider forward.

For Cav I reckon it's a delicate balancing act getting the right power to weight ratio to give him optimum acceleration. Last year he lost weight but also seemed to lose some power to get him over Box Hill. Build muscle and you negate some of his weight and aerodynamic advantage over his rivals, at which point it becomes more of a drag race and the most powerful wins.

So as far as PEDs go, something like steroids that build muscle mass may not benefit Cav much at all. What would would be recovery ones like Hgh or Poe.

I do lure coursing with lurchers and sighthounds. A whippet will beat a greyhound over 100m, the greyhound will win over longer distances. Greipel probably can clock higher top speed but Cav will always out-accelerate him. Which means that if Cav times it right, no-one can beat him while he's still accelerating due to the delicate balance between power, weight and aerodynamic efficiency. Once he hits top speed the bigger, more powerful riders will claw him back but by that time he's already won.

power % linear
drag exponential % on increased speed/power
if cav has got him beaten at 70kmph, just adding an extra 10% in their engines dont do jack for greipel

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thank feck Cavendish rides for a different team - Mellow Yellow won't harp on about me "boosting another Sky thread".

Now than.

Cavendish acquired bronchitis during the Tour de Suisse and will skip the race in Monmouthshire in order to be well for the Tour de France. He will continue training in Italy before traveling back to the United Kingdom for the start of the Tour de France in Yorkshire.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-out-of-british-road-championships

wtf happened at the Tour de Suisse? All these riders getting bronchial problems.

Cavendish can't take anything for it?

 

[Arrowfarm]

wtf happened at the Tour de Suisse? All these riders getting bronchial problems.

Cavendish can't take anything for it?

I seriously doubt the bronchial epidemic we're seeing these days. The number of chest infections suddenly appearing is actually a bit funny.

IMO they're prepping the SKY way.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I seriously doubt the bronchial epidemic we're seeing these days. The number of chest infections suddenly appearing is actually a bit funny.

IMO they're prepping the SKY way.

There certainly seems to be a rash of them recently.

 

[blackcat]

The only thread I can find on Cav relates to his teeth, so thought his achievement today warranted some acknowledgement:

I see the only 4 other riders who have points jerseys from all 3 GTs are Merckxx, Adbdojaperov, Jalabert & Petacchi.
My memory tell me they have all served time for doping infractions, (please advise about the accuracy of this)

Does this make Cav the first (official) clean winner of these points jerseys?

yeah, good thread that

 

[hiero2]

I seriously doubt the bronchial epidemic we're seeing these days. The number of chest infections suddenly appearing is actually a bit funny.

IMO they're prepping the SKY way.

Have you ever trained to the absolute peak of your cardio ability? It may not be true for everyone - but a lot of cyclists who do find themselves MORE prone to little infections - not less. And little infections can hurt performance. I found this to be true back when I was racing. I find nothing dramatic to doubt in this announcement and move by Cav.

On the other hand, if he suddenly announces he has had asthma for all these years - and requires an inhaler? I would find some grounds for a little doubting.

Otherwise, methinks you are overdramatizing the bronchial thing.

 

[hiero2]

I know, which is why I need there greater quantaitive data needed than a simple 5% gain, so I was theorising.

I keep thinking of cars, and how a smaller,lighter, mid-engined car with drastically lower power will beat a heavier, bigger-engined car over a lap, as evidenced by the development in F1, particularly that of Colin CHapman and his mid-engined Lotus' that beat the front-engined, more powerful Ferraris in the 50s or sixties. And pun-intended

Interesting comparison. The heavier, bigger-engined car wins the quarter mile, over the smaller, lighter, mid-engined car.

Hmm. How about that.

 

[Catwhoorg]

On the plus side it seems his little spat with Henderson was due to a hacker or s**** sending messages.

They have kissed and made up.
Hendo apologized for going off publicly before fact checking.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Interesting comparison. The heavier, bigger-engined car wins the quarter mile, over the smaller, lighter, mid-engined car.

Hmm. How about that.

Man I wrote that a long time ago. It's a silly analogy: I was trying to identify the fairly unique physical attributes that makes Cav such a good sprinter. The fact he is underpowered compared to his major opponents, but compensates with his small stature making him more aero, able to get a bigger aero advantage when following a wheel, gives less of an advantage to those behind, and then there's his second kick too.

Anyway, no need to delve too deeply into bronchial problems is there? this has been covered to death why riders are more prone.

 

[zigmeister]

Have you ever trained to the absolute peak of your cardio ability? It may not be true for everyone - but a lot of cyclists who do find themselves MORE prone to little infections - not less. And little infections can hurt performance. I found this to be true back when I was racing. I find nothing dramatic to doubt in this announcement and move by Cav.

On the other hand, if he suddenly announces he has had asthma for all these years - and requires an inhaler? I would find some grounds for a little doubting.

Otherwise, methinks you are overdramatizing the bronchial thing.

I do. I don't have a susceptibility to any infections of any type related to chest/colds etc..in fact, I rarely get them.

With that being said. There have been studies showing a suppression of immunity after extreme exertions/levels of high exercise.

Varies by person though.

Blurb from an article I lifted:

"Post-exercise immune function depression is most pronounced when the exercise is continuous, prolonged (>1.5 hours), of moderate to high intensity (55-75% of aerobic capacity), and performed without food intake (Gleeson, 2006). Both aspects of innate immunity (e.g., neutrophil chemotaxis, phagocytosis, degranulation and oxidative burst activity and natural killer cell cytoxic activity) and acquired immunity (e.g., toll-like receptor expression and antigen presentation by monocytes/ macrophages; T lymphocyte cytokine production and proliferation, immunoglobulin production by B lymphocytes) are depressed by prolonged exercise. The salivary secretory immunoglobulin A (SIgA) response to acute exercise is variable, though very prolonged bouts of exercise are commonly reported to result in decreased SIgA secretion (Bishop & Gleeson, 2009). The causes of immune depression after prolonged exercise are thought to be related to increases in circulating stress hormones (e.g., adrenaline and cortisol), alterations in the pro/antiinflammatory cytokine balance and increased free radicals.

Markers of immune function in athletes in the true resting state (i.e., at least 24 hours after the last exercise bout) are generally not very different from their sedentary counterparts, except when athletes are engaged in periods of intensified training. In this situation immune function might not fully recover from successive training sessions and some functions can become chronically depressed (Gleeson, 2005). Both T and B lymphocyte functions appear to be sensitive to increases in training load in well-trained athletes undertaking a period of intensified training, with decreases in circulating numbers of Type 1 T cells, inhibition of Type 1 T cell cytokine production, reduced T cell proliferative responses and falls in stimulated B cell immunoglobulin synthesis and SIgA reported. However, to date, the only immune variable that has been associated with increased infection incidence is SIgA. Low concentrations of SIgA in athletes or substantial transient falls in SIgA are associated with increased risk of URTI. In contrast, increases in SIgA can occur after a period of regular moderate exercise training in previously sedentary individuals and could, at least in part, contribute to the apparent reduced susceptibility to URTI associated with regular moderate exercise compared with a sedentary lifestyle."


BUT......before you jump to conclusion about that study, in general, there is very little evidence to show exercise is the exact cause/reason for infections in athletes, or makes them more susceptible.

Exercise and Immune Function
Recent Developments
David C. Nieman1 and Bente K. Pedersen2

"Comparison of immune function in athletes and nonathletes reveals that the
adaptive immune system is largely unaffected by athletic endeavour. The innate
immune system appears to respond differentially to the chronic stress of intensive
exercise, with natural killer cell activity tending to be enhanced while neutrophil
function is suppressed. However, even when significant changes in the level and
functional activity of immune parameters have been observed in athletes, investigators
have had little success in linking these to a higher incidence of infection
and illness."

 

[Carstenbf]

I seriously doubt the bronchial epidemic we're seeing these days. The number of chest infections suddenly appearing is actually a bit funny.

IMO they're prepping the SKY way.

Cortisol can weaken the activity of the immune system. Funny that. Get infected -> treat with steroids -> increased risk of infection.

 

[proffate]

I seriously doubt the bronchial epidemic we're seeing these days. The number of chest infections suddenly appearing is actually a bit funny.

industrialization. Particulate matter in the air. Or maybe volcanic dust in Froome's case.

 

[rideordie]

Have you ever trained to the absolute peak of your cardio ability? It may not be true for everyone - but a lot of cyclists who do find themselves MORE prone to little infections - not less. And little infections can hurt performance. I found this to be true back when I was racing.

I've been overtrained before and close to my cardiovascular ceiling. The typically quoted signs of overtraining never showed up. No sickness, no diminished performance. When my bf% got too low my recovery, sexual function and mood went to hell, because it turns out that the body actually shuts down anabolic systems (read: testosterone) when it's in starvation mode. Starvation mode is engaged when leptin (hormone created by fat) gets too low... but I digress.

For someone like Froome who's deathly thin, in my experience, it doesn't make sense that he can recover and stay strong for 3 weeks of GT riding. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect him to be sick more often than a normal person. Less, if he can avoid bad weather and crowds by travelling to nearly deserted tropical islands.

For someone like Cav, the extra bit of chub makes a lot of sense as an explanation for why he retains his sprinting form over a GT.

(Aside: I'm not sure if you can isolate leptin and inject an exogenous form, but "leptin doping" seems like a good vector for maintaining natural testosterone levels while letting your body fat dwindle to nothing.)

 

[JimmyFingers]

Lulz @ 'extra bit of chub', sure Cav would love that

 

[Freddythefrog]

Why turn up ?

This isn't a course for Cav so he will continue to prep for the Tour. Currently he has his press agent inventing the excuses and the agent seems to be doing quite a good job - have a look at the comments on the main page. "Oh Cav you looked so great in the GB jersey - my hero!"

As to the nature of that preparation we will all have our own views.

FWIW, I think Cav is preparing like many a green jersey winner in years gone by has prepared.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Shaolin style?

 

[Hawkwood]

Lulz @ 'extra bit of chub', sure Cav would love that

Have we strayed into coarse fishing, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chub ?

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's all the oily fish he eats that makes him fat

 

[sniper]

Cavendish still doping strong.