Cavendish: class of his own?

[Samson777]

Most legendary athletes were/are consistently great over long periods of time. Hence: Legends

Pelé
Ali
Merckx
etc.

Yes and none of thoose guys used drugs...

 

[Granville57]

Yes and none of thoose guys used drugs...

Then give me the stuff that Pelé was on.

 

[Samson777]

Then give me the stuff that Pelé was on.

You can be both Amazing and doped, don't you think? Perhaps you know Maradona?

What Pelé was on I don't know, perhaps he was on the training ground, like Wonderboy was on his bike. Or maybe he was a saint, just like another of your examples Merckx..

 

[ferryman]

Just wanted to clarify my post above: like any rider Cav isn't above suspicion but as ever I give him the benefit of the doubt. Bit like Sagan I see him as a freak of nature, perfectly designed for he does. Like McEwan says, in the drops he's already effortlessly in the perfect aero position. His body shape could have been designed in a lab: big head, narrow shoulders, smally body. I imagine shorter legs give him an acceleration advantage over taller, bigger riders.

Coupled with that is a real mentality, a real determination to win ruthlessly. It means he's never beaten,never backs down, will always try his absolute best. He uses his teammates and more for motivation. He doesn't ride for himself, he rides for other and this fuels his desire to win. A big contrast there with Wiggins, who you feel only rides for himself.

So while I'm sure PEDs would benefit Cav, I also don't think he needs them to do what he does. His palmares is unquestionable from early on, and there are plenty of reasons why he is exceptional at what he does. While a 3 week tour is tough on everyone, Cav stays sheltered in the peloton, never has to take a turn on the front of go back for bottles, and yes mountains are extremely tough for sprinters, to make sure you're within the limit....

But I never look at Cav and think NOT NORMAL.

My opinion of course. I know he raced/races for some dodgy teams.

So while I'm sure an array of drugs would enhance Cav's performance, perhaps the usual ones you'd expect a sprinter to be popping like steroids aren't as helpful to Cav. Unlike Greipel for example.

Can you clarify on this as well JF. Why would steroids be more helpful for a sprinter like Greipel?

 

[S2Sturges]

what makes you think he is clean? (other than his passport)

Or loves holding onto team cars on the climbs....

 

[Granville57]

You can be both Amazing and doped, don't you think?

Of course. You'll not find me accusing any athlete of being clean.

(But I don't want to derail this fine discussion about Clean Cav.)

 

[blackcat]

That puts you in a difficult situation about 50% of the time then. Banging on about 50.3 is just that. Hayles might have been doped to the eyeballs but Hct is a crude and imprecise measure at the best of times which is why it is used the way it is.

ofcourse. crude and imprecise. but he had passed COUNTLESS crit tests before, and never flagged one. this is the point.

all the crude and imprecise tests he had previously passed, the one he happens to fail, is the week before (or 3 days before) worlds in Manchester, which was gonna double as the selection event for the Olympics 15 weeks later.

ExtrrrrrrooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrdineRRy coincidece no?

 

[JimmyFingers]

So while I'm sure an array of drugs would enhance Cav's performance, perhaps the usual ones you'd expect a sprinter to be popping like steroids aren't as helpful to Cav. Unlike Greipel for example.

Can you clarify on this as well JF. Why would steroids be more helpful for a sprinter like Greipel?

Because Greipel is more reliant on raw power,generating huge amounts of torque to hit his top speeds.

 

[SundayRider]

yes it is. Being at the top for a long time is a lot more normal then experiencing incredible body transformations overnight in your 20's.

Armstrong, Indurain, Cippolini?

 

[spalco]

Indurain wasn't actually "at the top" for that long, and of course there are counterexamples to anything.

 

[King Boonen]

Because Greipel is more reliant on raw power,generating huge amounts of torque to hit his top speeds.

not really, Cav is just as reliant on raw power. He can't generate as much as Greipel, but his small statue counteracts that allowing him to go as fast. Steroids would help both of them equally I think.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Disagree, read the rest of the thread and the other one, there is more to Cav's abilities than raw power. A lot more.

 

[SirLes]

Cav is the only rider who can do a solo breakaway in the last 300m of a flat stage

 

[King Boonen]

Disagree, read the rest of the thread and the other one, there is more to Cav's abilities than raw power. A lot more.

Feel free to disagree, I don't mind people being wrong.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Then we agree on one thing then

 

[Netserk]

Disagree, read the rest of the thread and the other one, there is more to Cav's abilities than raw power. A lot more.

Cav would have a the same benefit of a 5% increase in power as Greipel would.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Cav would have a the same benefit of a 5% increase in power as Greipel would.

Nope. Griepel would need a bigger % bump in power than Cav to translate to to an identical increase in km/h on the bike

 

[JimmyFingers]

Cav would have a the same benefit of a 5% increase in power as Greipel would.

Actually he would probably have a bigger one. But he doesn't need it to be ridiculously fast. Drugs made Lance the athlete he was, I don't think you could say the same for Cav. As I said he's a freak of nature. That's why on the other thread they were discussing his 'flow', the ability to read the situation at the sharp end in slow motion and likening it to Pele.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be better using drugs, particularly recovery ones, but if someone is putting out twelve hundred watts and beating guys putting out 1600-1700 then there is something remarkable about that rider. Listen to Robbie McEwan talk about him. He's a uniquely talented rider, Cav not McEwan, although he was as well.

 

[Netserk]

Actually he would probably have a bigger one. But he doesn't need it to be ridiculously fast. Drugs made Lance the athlete he was, I don't think you could say the same for Cav. As I said he's a freak of nature. That's why on the other thread they were discussing his 'flow', the ability to read the situation at the sharp end in slow motion and likening it to Pele.

And yet if he was producing 200W less, he probably wouldn't win a single Tour stage.

 

[SeriousSam]

not really, Cav is just as reliant on raw power. He can't generate as much as Greipel, but his small statue counteracts that allowing him to go as fast. Steroids would help both of them equally I think.

Disagree, read the rest of the thread and the other one, there is more to Cav's abilities than raw power. A lot more.

Cav would have a the same benefit of a 5% increase in power as Greipel would.

Actually he would probably have a bigger one.

dear oh dear

 

[JimmyFingers]

dear oh dear

On stupid pills tonight? Point me to where I said Cav wouldn't benefit from drugs?

My point, as your selective quoting evades, is that there is much more to Cav winning races than raw power. That whether you see him as an enhanced athlete or not, there is talent beyond anything drugs can give you.

 

[Kender]

Nope. Griepel would need a bigger % bump in power than Cav to translate to to an identical increase in km/h on the bike

that's not how percentages work.

5% of 1000 watts is 50 watts
5% of 1500 watts is 75 watts
(numbers are for example only)

the extra wattage gain might counteract the advantages cav has in size. but then again it might not.

you cant just say he'd need a bigger % increase, because he's starting from a higher wattage anyway

 

[King Boonen]

On stupid pills tonight? Point me to where I said Cav wouldn't benefit from drugs?

My point, as your selective quoting evades, is that there is much more to Cav winning races than raw power. That whether you see him as an enhanced athlete or not, there is talent beyond anything drugs can give you.

Cool it with the insults flower.

Cav relies on his power as much as any sprinter. Yes there are reasons he wins with a lower output but most of those he has no control over. An increase in power output would be as beneficial to him as it would be to any sprinter.

 

[maltiv]

Actually he would probably have a bigger one. But he doesn't need it to be ridiculously fast. Drugs made Lance the athlete he was, I don't think you could say the same for Cav. As I said he's a freak of nature. That's why on the other thread they were discussing his 'flow', the ability to read the situation at the sharp end in slow motion and likening it to Pele.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be better using drugs, particularly recovery ones, but if someone is putting out twelve hundred watts and beating guys putting out 1600-1700 then there is something remarkable about that rider. Listen to Robbie McEwan talk about him. He's a uniquely talented rider, Cav not McEwan, although he was as well.

There's no way Cav only produces 1200 watts, even I can do that...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Cool it with the insults flower.

Cav relies on his power as much as any sprinter. Yes there are reasons he wins with a lower output but most of those he has no control over. An increase in power output would be as beneficial to him as it would be to any sprinter.

The stupid pills wasn't directed at you sausage, but I appreciate being called flower. It's nice.

Yes power is a factor, but there are a myriad of other factors that contribute to Cav's effectiveness alongside power.