Chris Boardman and his 1996 Hour Record

[happychappy]

If boardman was on EPO/HGH/Test it's not *if* he would have won the tour, it's how many times.

 

[Benotti69]

Obree was offered a contract with a pro team and was told that he would be doping as a pro and he refused to enter the pro peloton as he refused to dope.

Boardman? Dont know if he did or didn't. Have not seen much to suggest he did.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Reminds me, Staite's ban is up in 2 months.

Has it really been almost 2 years ?

Time has flown.

 

[131313]

Well I think if you believe Boardman doped, then you would also have to believe Obree was doped as he broke the record just before Boardman in 93 or are we talking about the athlete's hour which Boardman also holds.

Not really. They were using completely different positions on the bike, so it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Obree's record required much less power than Boardman's first record. Here's a reasonable estimate:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/gallery/equipment/2008/hour-power-obree-and-egg

I'm not sure I agree with the absolute numbers, but I don't doubt that Obree had a significant advantage with his position, enough of an advantage to overcome a doped competitor. I'm not making any claims about Boardman either way, mind you. But to claim that if he was doping then Obree was doping is a claim that just doesn't hold up.

 

[joe_papp]

Obree was offered a contract with a pro team and was told that he would be doping as a pro and he refused to enter the pro peloton as he refused to dope.

Boardman? Dont know if he did or didn't. Have not seen much to suggest he did.

Thanks for your calm, reasoned, rational response. I'd forgotten about Obree's disastrous time w/ Le Groupement, from which he was fired for refusing to partake (what did they call it? "lack of professionalism in the approach to preparation" or something?).

As I didn't follow Boardman's career, it's great to hear that there was never any serious speculation that he might've used EPO when he broke an hour record that was previously held by two of the biggest EPO consumers from the 1990s: Rominger and Indurain.

Didn't O'bree also say that he thought at least 99% of the professional peloton competing in the Tour doped? Obviously he must then have been excluding Boardman from that group. I wish he'd clarified that directly.

 

[Escarabajo]

Not really. They were using completely different positions on the bike, so it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Obree's record required much less power than Boardman's first record. Here's a reasonable estimate:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/gallery/equipment/2008/hour-power-obree-and-egg

I'm not sure I agree with the absolute numbers, but I don't doubt that Obree had a significant advantage with his position, enough of an advantage to overcome a doped competitor. I'm not making any claims about Boardman either way, mind you. But to claim that if he was doping then Obree was doping is a claim that just doesn't hold up.

Nice info. Thanks.

Calculation for Merckx are closer to what Le Breton did in his earlier post.

Boardman keeps posting the highest power out there. It looks like he is clearly into 6.4 - 6.5 watts/kg territory for the hour. Obree's numbers are more reasonable when it comes to absolute power. I see that Obree's weight is about 72.5 kilos. That makes him even heavier than Boardman. Position was very key on his attempts.


Obree's take on drugs:

Obree said of his short professional career: "I still feel I was robbed of part of my career. I was signed up to ride in the prologue of the Tour back in 1995, but it was made very obvious to me I would have to take drugs. I said no, no way, and I was sacked by my team. So there I was, 11 years later, sitting there waiting for the Tour cyclists to come by, and something welled up in me. I feel I was robbed by a lot of these *******s taking drugs. I also hate the way that people think anyone who has ever achieved anything on a bike must have been taking drugs. I was surprised how resentful I felt when I was in Paris. It had obviously been simmering away in there for years. That's something new I'll have to talk to my therapist about."[8]

 

[BotanyBay]

What's the consensus on Boardman, PED's and his 1996 56.375 km Hour Record? Was it ever alleged that he'd prepared w/ EPO for that ride, the only time in his pro career he supposedly might've doped?

I'm not alleging that he did. Many years ago someone suggested that to me but I never followed-up on it.

Sometimes the Accomplishment + the Timing (1996) = the Suspcicion

otherwise expressed as A + T = S

 

[acoggan]

Not really. They were using completely different positions on the bike, so it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Obree's record required much less power than Boardman's first record. Here's a reasonable estimate:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/gallery/equipment/2008/hour-power-obree-and-egg

Having:

1) tested the Superman and Egg postures myself in the wind tunnel;

2) read what Peter Keen has written about the tests Boardman performed using both positions, and

3) read Grappe's 1997 paper in Ergonomics in which Obree's Egg position was compared to the usual aero position via field tests

I don't think that is a reasonable estimate at all.

As for Obree's actual hour power, I don't recall the precise value that Keen estimated (397 W come to mind), but I do recall that he estimated that he sustained a VO2 of 77 mL/min/kg for the duration. IOW, Obree was an extremely talented/fit motor, as well as an aerodynamic innovator.

EDIT1: Keen estimated that Boardman maintained a VO2 of 81 mL/kg/min during his ride, and used the same efficiency for both athletes when deriving these estimates. Thus, Keen would have estimated Obree's power as 77/81 * 6.4 = 6.1 W/kg (i.e., 4.7% lower than Boardman's).

EDIT2: I used the Superman position for the TT at master nationals in the mid-1990s, as for me it was just as fast, but more comfortable, than the Egg.

 

[131313]

Having:

1) tested the Superman and Egg postures myself in the wind tunnel;

2) read what Peter Keen has written about the tests Boardman performed using both positions, and

3) read Grappe's 1997 paper in Ergonomics in which Obree's Egg position was compared to the usual aero position via field tests

I don't think that is a reasonable estimate at all.

As for Obree's actual hour power, I don't recall the precise value that Keen estimated (397 W come to mind), but I do recall that he estimated that he sustained a VO2 of 77 mL/min/kg for the duration. IOW, Obree was an extremely talented/fit motor, as well as an aerodynamic innovator.

EDIT: Keen estimated that Boardman maintained a VO2 of 81 mL/kg/min during his ride, and used the same efficiency for both athletes when deriving these estimates. Thus, Keen would have estimated Obree's power as 77/81 * 6.4 = 6.1 W/kg (i.e., 4.7% lower than Boardman's).

Well, that's Keen's estimation. But that's all it is, an estimation. Just like Shen's estimation. You know as well as anyone the individual nature of aerodynamics. Keen's estimations of the egg were presumably based on data from Boardman's attempts at the position. It's entirely possible that Obree had a bigger delta between the egg an other positions, as did Shen when he tested them in the wind tunnel.

That said, my general point still stands. Obree had a much different position than Boardman, so it's reasonable to assume that he may have had a significant advantage in aerodynamics. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, so the doping logic tree doesn't necessarily follow. All this said, I certainly don't mean to diminish his athletic ability. There's obviously more at play that his innovation, he was obviously a talented athlete as well.

Do you know of any direct measurements of Obree's MK1 position?

 

[acoggan]

Well, that's Keen's estimation. But that's all it is, an estimation. Just like Shen's estimation. You know as well as anyone the individual nature of aerodynamics. Keen's estimations of the egg were presumably based on data from Boardman's attempts at the position. It's entirely possible that Obree had a bigger delta between the egg an other positions, as did Shen when he tested them in the wind tunnel.

That said, my general point still stands. Obree had a much different position than Boardman, so it's reasonable to assume that he may have had a significant advantage in aerodynamics. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, so the doping logic tree doesn't necessarily follow. All this said, I certainly don't mean to diminish his athletic ability. There's obviously more at play that his innovation, he was obviously a talented athlete as well.

Do you know of any direct measurements of Obree's MK1 position?

??

As I indicated, I've compared the Superman and Egg postures, as have Keen/Boardman, as have Grappe et al. None of these results are consistent with Shen's (perhaps due to the extreme degree of wind tunnel blockage in those tests).

As for the "doping logic tree", I'm with you there (which is why I snipped, and didn't respond to, that part of your original post).

 

[131313]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Do you know of any direct measurements of Obree himself in that position, and if there are any direct measurements of his power?

My guess without researching it would be "no" and "no", but that's just a guess.

If that is indeed the case, then I guess it's possible that for some reason Obree *may* have had a larger drop in CdA in the egg position than either you or ostensibly Boardman (again, assuming that Keen's estimation is based on Boardman's tests of the position).

 

[acoggan]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Do you know of any direct measurements of Obree himself in that position, and if there are any direct measurements of his power?

My guess without researching it would be "no" and "no", but that's just a guess.

If that is indeed the case, then I guess it's possible that for some reason Obree *may* have had a larger drop in CdA in the egg position than either you or ostensibly Boardman (again, assuming that Keen's estimation is based on Boardman's tests of the position).

No, no, and yes, it is possible...but given that 3 out of 4 experiments have indicated little, if any, difference between the Superman and the Egg, I'd say it is unlikely.

 

[BotanyBay]

OK, lets leave rec.bicycles.racing back with Kunich and Kurgan Changioni

Sorry, but I left that place to avoid endless discussions of wattage and power.

 

[andy1234]

Joe, let me help you out with this....
I had to google who Dan Staite was, I had never heard of him.

If Dan Stait was close enough to Boardman or his team, to be able to claim inside knowledge of this, I would have heard of him.

The real question should be, why are you giving your ex team mates factless comment, air time in here?

 

[joe_papp]

OK, lets leave rec.bicycles.racing back with Kunich and Kurgan Changioni

Sorry, but I left that place to avoid endless discussions of wattage and power.

LOL. Right. Anyway thanks everyone who contributed to this thread I appreciate the considered responses from some of you. Cheers.

The real question should be, why are you giving your ex team mates factless comment, air time in here?

He told me that he'd been told it by Hayles and Tanner on different occasions, both of whom he trained and raced with. You really don't have to cop the superior and dismissive attitude though, dude. Countless and innumerable people who neither of us know know other people who we may or may not know, and I find it doubtful that every single connection - or even a fraction of them - is cataloged and referenced via Google.

 

[BigBoat]

I was about to point out the same. Le Breton had made a lot of nice calculations on the hour and posted them here.

I always considered Merkx to be the top of what you could do pre-epo era which is pretty much what we are discussing here for Boardman, so I did the calculation for his hour record and came up with different values to what Le Breton had.





I used 0.96 kg/m3 for the air density and 0.36 m2 frontal area resistance. By any means this is not as scientific as others have done but I get around 450 watts of total power. I don’t get the 485 watts that the site is claiming but I don't get any number near what Breton is getting. The number for Merkx for his weight gives 6.27 watts for Kilogram. Recently the Science of the Sports have been outspoken about what is the naturally maximum possible that an athlete can give at FT and they have pointed out at 6.2 watts per kilogram which is very close.

As for Chris Boardman is concerned I would not be able to estimate the weird variables of his position in the bike so I’ll let other calculate that. If we believe this site’s calculations then I have Boardman’s at 6.54, 6.03, 5.9 watts/kilogram. According to the site the 6.54 watts/kilogram is referring to the 1996 Manchester record. Well in order to arrive at this calculation they used 0.34 square meters frontal area (maybe too much) and 0.165 cd. But if we assume that the numbers are correct we have numbers a bit on the high side. But these numbers are mere speculation anyway.

Personally, I dont believe its possible for somebody to get better than 5.8 w/kg for an hour clean. No Eddie wasn't totally clean. He used some PEDs. Its easy with testosterone to get a 20 watts or 30 watts increase in threshold for a man who's already able to do say, 420 without dope. The gain is going to be a percentage gain. I believe Eddie's sea level power based on his Mexico City ride would have been 429 watts. Freaky w/o epo. I think its agree-able Eddie was the greatest in history for sustainable power/endurance...

Indurain certainly had more power than a lot of guys who beat him at the hour, and this was due to aero superiority not power superiority. I think there's more of a drag drop off with some guys thats not accounted for.

If Chris Boardman had over 6 w/kg clean than he was a total phenom.....as much so as Eddie, or Hinault, or Lemond! I dont think he was clean though. Maybe Obree was.

 

[andy1234]

LOL. Right. Anyway thanks everyone who contributed to this thread I appreciate the considered responses from some of you. Cheers.




He told me that he'd been told it by Hayles and Tanner on different occasions, both of whom he trained and raced with. You really don't have to cop the superior and dismissive attitude though, dude. Countless and innumerable people who neither of us know know other people who we may or may not know, and I find it doubtful that every single connection - or even a fraction of them - is cataloged and referenced via Google.

John Tanner or Rob Hayles would have had almost as little insight into Boardmans activities at the time as you or your ex team mate. So thanks for the update.

And, Dude, I have a dismissive attitude because you are asking a question based on a comment from a random doper. If you really cared about the answer to your quetion, a little digging on your source, and you could have come up with the same conclusion.

 

[function]

John Tanner or Rob Hayles would have had almost as little insight into Boardmans activities at the time as you or your ex team mate. So thanks for the update.

And, Dude, I have a dismissive attitude because you are asking a question based on a comment from a random doper. If you really cared about the answer to your quetion, a little digging on your source, and you could have come up with the same conclusion.

"Dopers disbelief" when someone who was forced to dope in order to be competitive or just hang on believes that someone else must be doping since they are better/stronger.

 

[Le breton]

Personally, I dont believe its possible for somebody to get better than 5.8 w/kg for an hour clean. .

That's a strange belief system you have.
Now facts and/or factoids
1)There seems to be a consensus that well trained athletes can sustain ~90% of their VO2 max for one hour.

2) In chemistry you learn that when burning glycogen you produce 21 kJoule / liter O2
in other words 1 liter of oxygen corresponds to 21000/60 = 350 watts

3) many studies show that the mechanical efficiency of endurance-type cyclists is about 22-23%. Let's take 22.6% as is the case for Chris Boardman according to Peter Keen.

4) Hence Boardman at VO2 max, in top shape, let's say in 1996, could produce 350 * 0.226 = 79 watts per liter of oxygen consumed.

5) There is good reason to trust Peter Keen's power estimations. Hence I consider that 442 watts was the power Boardman produced in his superman hour (56.375 km)

6) i.e. that day Boardman consumed 442/79 = 5.6 liter oxygen per minute.

7) It is quite likely that Boardman was close to 90% of his VO2 max during that hour. Which means that his absolute VO2 max was about 5.6/0.9 = 6.2 liter /mn

8) Considering that Boardman was either 68 or 69 kg, his relative VO2 max was in the neighborhood of 91 milliter/mn.kg. while his power/weight ratio was about 6.45 watts/kg.

9) Considering that the highest VO2 max ever measured pre-EPO was 94 ml/mn.kg (Mieto, cross-country swedish skier), there is no reason to offhand dismiss Boardman's performance as impossible without PEDs. Also, LeMond and Hinault reportedly both had higher VO2 max values, in the neighbourhood of 92-93 ml/mn.kg.

10) Assuming LeMond and Hinault to be as good as any cyclist can expect to be on endurance type events, a clean one hour power output of up to 6.6 watts/kg could be envisaged for the very best cyclists. (Moncoutié climbed Ventoux at least twice in under 1 hour in TT producing a bit over 6.2 watts/g)

11) I find it hard to reconcile Chris Boardman's 442 watts on the track with his much poorer performances on mountain climbs, like Ventoux. So, I have my doubts on his stupendous 56.375 km.

I went to watch him once on a flat TT very near here and his position on his Lotus bike was as near perfection as I have ever seen. If he had been as aerodynamic as Boardman Rominger would have done 58 km, not just 55.291km

CONCLUSION
You have 10 points listed above, which one(s) is (are) against you belief system?

PS1: All calculations dedicated to Botany Bay
PS2 : Considering that Mieto was Finnish- hence almost a nighbour of Lasse Viren - and reached his best level in 1976, it's not possible to exclude blood-doping in his 94 ml/mn.kg VO2 max.

 

[BroDeal]

8) Considering that Boardman was either 68 or 69 kg, his relative VO2 max was in the neighborhood of 91 milliter/mn.kg. while his power/weight ratio was about 6.45 watts/kg.

Aww, monkey!. Does anyone believe that Boardman had a VO2 max of 91?

 

[function]

Boardman's climbing

11) I find it hard to reconcile Chris Boardman's 442 watts on the track with his much poorer performances on mountain climbs, like Ventoux. So, I have my doubts on his stupendous 56.375 km.

Boardman's climbing abilities always comes into question, but it does appear to be related to recovery which he has never done well at. I found the following quote from him to alluding to the same;

'But I seemed to fatigue faster than other competitors. For years we assumed that I needed to improve my climbing skills because I would fall back in the later mountainous stages.
'But in 1996, I entered a race in Spain where the mountains came first and I performed very well - so my climbing skills weren't at fault. I was scratching my head until the following year, when my team doctor analysed previous blood tests and recognised a persistently low level of testosterone.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/diets/article-1227777/CHRIS-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html

 

[function]

Personally, I dont believe its possible for somebody to get better than 5.8 w/kg for an hour clean.

Curious, is this based on human physiology or?

 

[Velodude]

Aww, monkey!. Does anyone believe that Boardman had a VO2 max of 91?

I googled "Chris boardman V02 max" and two sites credited him with 80.

 

[acoggan]

I googled "Chris boardman V02 max" and two sites credited him with 80.

Peter Keen himself said it was 90.

 

[acoggan]

That's a strange belief system you have.
Now facts and/or factoids
1)There seems to be a consensus that well trained athletes can sustain ~90% of their VO2 max for one hour.

2) In chemistry you learn that when burning glycogen you produce 21 kJoule / liter O2
in other words 1 liter of oxygen corresponds to 21000/60 = 350 watts

3) many studies show that the mechanical efficiency of endurance-type cyclists is about 22-23%. Let's take 22.6% as is the case for Chris Boardman according to Peter Keen.

4) Hence Boardman at VO2 max, in top shape, let's say in 1996, could produce 350 * 0.226 = 79 watts per liter of oxygen consumed.

5) There is good reason to trust Peter Keen's power estimations. Hence I consider that 442 watts was the power Boardman produced in his superman hour (56.375 km)

6) i.e. that day Boardman consumed 442/79 = 5.6 liter oxygen per minute.

7) It is quite likely that Boardman was close to 90% of his VO2 max during that hour. Which means that his absolute VO2 max was about 5.6/0.9 = 6.2 liter /mn

8) Considering that Boardman was either 68 or 69 kg, his relative VO2 max was in the neighborhood of 91 milliter/mn.kg

FWIW, Peter Keen gave it as 90 mL/min/kg.

11) I find it hard to reconcile Chris Boardman's 442 watts on the track with his much poorer performances on mountain climbs, like Ventoux.

When he was a young amateur, Keen was the English National Hill Climb Champion. Those races are rather short, more like a prologue or a pursuit than something like Ventoux, so would reflect both aerobic and anaerobic ability. Still, at a minimum it can said that his power:mass must have been quite high, and not just his power:aero drag.