Chris Boardman and his 1996 Hour Record

[Le breton]

Apparently ferryman thinks the "doping line" needs to be drawn at 6.1 W/kg, and not 6.4 W/kg.

That does, though, make him more liberal in his assessment than, e.g., Allen Lim, Scott Tucker, Jonathon Dugast, etc., who would put it ~10% (!!) below Boardman's quite well-documented abilities.

Allen Lim, .........who would put it ~10% (!!) below Boardman's quite well-documented abilities

That's really funny to me : I am pretty sure the story I heard in 1999 about L.A. doing 491 watts for 30 minutes up col de la Madone ( better than 100 ml Rominger by 1-2%) came via Allen Lim.

491 watts , even for a 73 kg LA would be 6.7 watts/kg for 30 min, (and probably 6.4 watts/kg for 60 min.)

I guess Lim must have considered unprepared LA's 1999 potential as the highest possible for a clean racer : it so happens that 10% below 6.4, ie less than 5.8 watts/kg, is perfectly in line with LA's widely advertised VO2 max, a bit above 80 ml/mn.kg.

 

[function]

That's really funny to me : I am pretty sure the story I heard in 1999 about L.A. doing 491 watts for 30 minutes up col de la Madone ( better than 100 ml Rominger by 1-2%) came via Allen Lim.

491 watts , even for a 73 kg LA would be 6.7 watts/kg for 30 min, (and probably 6.4 watts/kg for 60 min.)

I wouldn't expect that sort of decay ie 6.7 (30min) -> 6.4 (60min) if the effort was done as part of a longer effort in a race. In that case i would expect it to be nearer to 6.7 for 60 minutes if done as a sole effort, fresh.

 

[Le breton]

I wouldn't expect that sort of decay ie 6.7 (30min) -> 6.4 (60min) if the effort was done as part of a longer effort in a race. In that case i would expect it to be nearer to 6.7 for 60 minutes if done as a sole effort, fresh.

Obviously if you consider a quite different question you will get a different answer!

Considering that in 1999 LA did an all-out 30 min. effort on Col de la Madone, producing 6.7 watts/kg (or possibly a bit more if he was lighter than 73 kg) in the process, I was trying to estimate how much power he would have been able to produce that day for an all-out 60 min effort.

I once used an article written by Ric Stern on Cyclingnews to try to estimate how fast power decayed with duration. (He used a sample of top UK TT specialists IIRC).

The mean of that decay curve for such durations as those considered here was about 4-5%, ie on the average cyclists in the sample could produce over 60 min about 95-96% of the power they could produce over 30 min.

Which means that on average someone able to produce 6.7 watts/kg over 30 min would be able to produce about 95-96% of 6.7 watts/kg ~ 6.4 watts/kg over 60 min.

Anyway, we have the world specialist on that question among us : ACoggan

By the way, soon after that 1999 Madone climb, LA produced 6.3 watts/kg over 57:51 climbing Mont Ventoux 1 mn slower than Vaughters.
( I am using Portoleau/Vayer estimate on this). But maybe he lost 0.1 watts/kg to altitude.

 

[acoggan]

Allen Lim, .........who would put it ~10% (!!) below Boardman's quite well-documented abilities

That's really funny to me : I am pretty sure the story I heard in 1999 about L.A. doing 491 watts for 30 minutes up col de la Madone ( better than 100 ml Rominger by 1-2%) came via Allen Lim.

491 watts , even for a 73 kg LA would be 6.7 watts/kg for 30 min, (and probably 6.4 watts/kg for 60 min.)

I guess Lim must have considered unprepared LA's 1999 potential as the highest possible for a clean racer : it so happens that 10% below 6.4, ie less than 5.8 watts/kg, is perfectly in line with LA's widely advertised VO2 max, a bit above 80 ml/mn.kg.

No, Allen was still working on his PhD/coaching the Celestial Seasonings women's team back then...Armstrong's col de la Madone effort was first relayed (AFAIK) in an article in VeloNews by Jon Vaughters, who I believe was still racing himself at the time.

You are right, though, in that it does seems strange that he (Lim) would state that the upper limit to what is physiologically plausible is clearly less than 6 W/kg, while working for someone who is widely reported to have produced much more.

BTW, according the physiologist at the US Olympic Training Center, Armstrong's VO2max (in his pre-cancer state) was 84 mL/min/kg at 1800-1900 m altitude.

 

[function]

Obviously if you consider a quite different question you will get a different answer!

Considering that in 1999 LA did an all-out 30 min. effort on Col de la Madone, producing 6.7 watts/kg (or possibly a bit more if he was lighter than 73 kg) in the process, I was trying to estimate how much power he would have been able to produce that day for an all-out 60 min effort.

Fair enough, it wasn't clear to me in your statement whether that 30minutes was fresh or one of the climbs in a GT stage.

 

[jamiephillips]

It's great that Boardman was such a natural talent at 15. Wasn't one young Taxas triathlete also? What can we still go by, if anything?

Anyone know what Armstrong's times were for a 25 mile time trial or similar at age 15? Just out of interest. It's a great comparison.

 

[Polish]

Anyone know what Armstrong's times were for a 25 mile time trial or similar at age 15? Just out of interest. It's a great comparison.

Ok, I will take a stab at this one...

A 15 year old Lance would have kicked a 15year old Chris in his crumpets.
Be running home to mum waa.

At 15, in 1987, Wonderboy was already rocking an aero helmet and the new fangled aero-bars. In 1987.

Doing it on National Network Television. Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkAhs4vAsk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

WonderBoy indeed Phil. WonderBoy indeed.

 

[samerics]

Ok, I will take a stab at this one...

A 15 year old Lance would have kicked a 15year old Chris in his crumpets.
Be running home to mum waa.

At 15, in 1987, Wonderboy was already rocking an aero helmet and the new fangled aero-bars. In 1987.

Doing it on National Network Television. Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkAhs4vAsk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

WonderBoy indeed Phil. WonderBoy indeed.

Nonsense, until Lance came back as a miraculously different rider in 99, he was a decidedly average time triallist! Quit the fan boy myopia . And Chris was clean, your boy was dirty.

 

[samerics]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjJ60Kx2j8I

In case you've forgotten how talented Chris was, watch his performance in the 1994 TdF Prologue. Didn't see Lance in the top 10.....

 

[Rominger]

What's the consensus on Boardman, PED's and his 1996 56.375 km Hour Record? Was it ever alleged that he'd prepared w/ EPO for that ride, the only time in his pro career he supposedly might've doped?

I'm not alleging that he did. Many years ago someone suggested that to me but I never followed-up on it.

I am a new visitor to the clinic having seen this as the most recently posted upon thread but having had a bit of a look around it would appear to me that you seem to have some sort of severe case of sour grapes, you are a convicted doper and supplier, you state that these are actions now in your past but you cannot help but to attempt to cast a shadow over what seems to be any and every other rider in the peloton, why? Some (perhaps even most) riders dope and don't get caught, there are performances which seem way too good to be true, but why do you have any right to be one man judge and jury for every rider and performance? Frankly it does not make me think any more highly of you to hear you say this or that rider doped and particularly so when you intimate accusations without even posting any evidence, if you have some then share it, if you don't then please stop trying to tar the entire world with your bitter doping brush.

And when you say you never followed up on it in 1996, why would you? Are you now personally retrospectively dope testing any rider of the 90's and 00's? What gives you of all people the right?

 

[Martin318is]

Confused about why so many are discussing Lance's numbers here given that this is a thread about Boardman in a very different set of circumstances...

 

[BotanyBay]

It seems you are happy to hide behind the "friend of a friend" veiled accusation though.
So let me ask a question of you.
Do YOU think Boardman doped?
Yes or No.

I agree with this sentiment. Joe: Please, don't just bait us to be the ones to offer strong and controversial opinions about this subject. Offer one of your own. Just because you're Joe Papp doesn't mean you can't lay your own strong opinions on the line. I know that you have a few real stories that don't even relate to current (or recent) USADA cases. Why not share a few of them? Heck, why not share ALL of them?

Examples...
Tyler: Has far more info than he's ever willing to share (but he's now ok to throw Lance under the bus). Same for Floyd. And some other Tailwind teammates as well (and please don't make me go here).

This gets me back to guys like Vaughters (et all) with their "selective revelations" (that they carefully control so that the pace suits them better).

There are some really harmful characters out there. People that even most "haters" (like us) still think are/were the "good guys". And I'm really tired of people that have only copped to selective revelations allowing people to only know portions of the story. To date, there are only about 2 people that I feel have gone to "full disclosure". Decanio and Kimmage. That's it.

 

[samerics]

Confused about why so many are discussing Lance's numbers here given that this is a thread about Boardman in a very different set of circumstances...

Only as a response to the myopia regarding Lances pre cancer TT prowess compared with Boardmans.....

 

[Martin318is]

Thats the sad bit. Who cares about Lance? Comparisons against him are not going to suddenly prove or disprove whether Boardman doped. Meanwhile, you have one of the least suspected riders in the modern era being compared against - frankly - one of the most suspicious non-convicted riders.

Because? a known doper says he heard 2 other riders say something but there is no detail to follow up...

People talk about omerta hurting the sport but in my view, this type of random doper seeking behaviour is almost worse (yes I know that one is in part caused by the other). In 12 months, someone will hear a rumour about Boardman - a rumour that probably started here - and when they do a google search, THIS conversation will come up, thereby lending credibility to the rumour. Its all self-fulfilling BS.

 

[andy1234]

Thats the sad bit. Who cares about Lance? Comparisons against him are not going to suddenly prove or disprove whether Boardman doped. Meanwhile, you have one of the least suspected riders in the modern era being compared against - frankly - one of the most suspicious non-convicted riders.

Because? a known doper says he heard 2 other riders say something but there is no detail to follow up...

People talk about omerta hurting the sport but in my view, this type of random doper seeking behaviour is almost worse (yes I know that one is in part caused by the other). In 12 months, someone will hear a rumour about Boardman - a rumour that probably started here - and when they do a google search, THIS conversation will come up, thereby lending credibility to the rumour. Its all self-fulfilling BS.

Well said.

Papps failure to engage any further on this thread speaks volumes.

 

[samerics]

Fair comment, you guys are right about that, I'll not bite in future....

 

[Cloxxki]

Because? a known doper says he heard 2 other riders say something but there is no detail to follow up...

Know of many better sources for intel? Most we know about current day doping is through the very rare dopers that opened up. Of the limited number getting caught, most keep their mouths shut.
It's sound to look at the validy or, terrible word, "credibility" of a source, and surely more investigation is always warrented regardless of intel source, but we cannot be too picky in picking roads to enlightenment.
I am not sure there is anything more reliable in this context than the word of a former doper having switched to the light side. Yes, police phone taps are nice. But as rare as talking dopers.

 

[andy1234]

Know of many better sources for intel? Most we know about current day doping is through the very rare dopers that opened up. Of the limited number getting caught, most keep their mouths shut.
It's sound to look at the validy or, terrible word, "credibility" of a source, and surely more investigation is always warrented regardless of intel source, but we cannot be too picky in picking roads to enlightenment.
I am not sure there is anything more reliable in this context than the word of a former doper having switched to the light side. Yes, police phone taps are nice. But as rare as talking dopers.

I'll tell you who would be a better source for intel, and more reliable in this context.
Someone who doesnt take the 3rd hand gossip from someone they dont know, about someone they have never met, and discuss it like it has any validity.

Thats who.

Papp is discussing subjects he has no more knowledge of then the average clinic theorist.
The big difference though, given his past, is that readers may give misplaced credence to his "inside information".

 

[Biggut]

I said it ages ago and I am now even more convinced that unless Papp is saying he sold Boardman drugs he should shut his dope cheating drug dealing mouth about it. That goes for him discussing any individual riders. Unless he has first hand knowledge then a dope cheat like him shouldn't be going around making insinuations. All it seems to be is a cheat trying to make everybody else think the whole sport cheats, try justifying your own disgusting behaviour in some other way that doesn't malign clean hard working riders with way more talent and morality than yourself.

 

[meat puppet]

As an active clinic reader I'd like to throw in my two cents. Cloxxki's on the money as far as we're talkin about getting info, IMO. If cops for one stopped listening to the "dope cheating drug dealing mouths" of their informants, where exactly would they be? Also I must say that I find many of the taunts towards Mr. Papp much more tasteless than his alleged ill-advised insinuations. Maybe that's just me, dunno.

Granted, there is nevertheless merit in the thought that these discussions may become sources for unnecessary rumours that, then, retroactively find "validation" in these discussions here. But perhaps that's collateral, in the grand scheme of things. Or perhaps I take this too lightly.

 

[Benotti69]

I said it ages ago and I am now even more convinced that unless Papp is saying he sold Boardman drugs

That goes for him discussing any individual riders. Unless he has first hand knowledge then a dope cheat like him shouldn't be going around making insinuations. All it seems to be is a cheat trying to make everybody else think the whole sport cheats, try justifying your own disgusting behaviour in some other way that doesn't malign clean hard working riders with way more talent and morality than yourself.

Actually there was a time when the whole sport cheated except for some rare individuals.

Who is to say it is any different now?

This is the part of the forum where we discuss this type of thing.

For those getting het up about Joe Papp, insulting him shows a lack of intelligence, he asked a simple question about a guy who rode through one of the most effective PED times of the sport, where EPO made huge improvements to riders performances. We have plenty of examples.

Surprised no one asked it before really.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Anyone who thinks Boardmann was clean.

Please send me the stuf you are smoking, it must be the real deal.

 

[Biggut]

Actually there was a time when the whole sport cheated except for some rare individuals.

Who is to say it is any different now?

This is the part of the forum where we discuss this type of thing.

For those getting het up about Joe Papp, insulting him shows a lack of intelligence, he asked a simple question about a guy who rode through one of the most effective PED times of the sport, where EPO made huge improvements to riders performances. We have plenty of examples.

Surprised no one asked it before really.

He didn't just ask a question. He is making an insinuation. This is entirely backed up by thhe fact he then says that another convicted drug cheat made an unspecified comment. Papp isn't just some naive rider, he dealt in the drugs, he is part of the problem not part of the solution. Whilst people go around constantly questioning anybody who shows ability rather than reporting everybody they see actually doing things there will always be a problem.

If somebody says they saw Boardman dope or sold him something or he turns up with a bag of blood at a dubious doctors then fair enough. But simply saying he was so good that surely he must have doped is doing the sport a dis service.

I have seen people I know to be clean perform feats of endurance that most human beings would simply not be able to comprehend. Have seen them do it on will power and dedication. To me the fact that Boardman could produce single performances of extreme quality but not repeat it day after day when there were drugs available and widely used that would have made this possible is an obvious indicator that he was clean. You take a ride red with his pedigree and give them EPO and they are going to have a lot more wins in a lot of multiway races than Boardman ever achieved.

For some drug pusher to then question Boardman with absolutely no evidence and hiding behind an unspecified comment by a convicted drug cheat is wrong.

Papp if you have any evidence that Boardman cheated then say it. If not then shut up, you have had you 5 minutes of completely undeserved fame.

 

[Biggut]

Can I also ask where the insult was to Papp.

Dope dealing, check.
Drug cheating, check.

If you don't wan to be labelled a dope dealing drug cheat then don't do it in the first place. Why the hell should I have to worry about calling him a dope dealing drug cheat when that is exactly what he is.

I can kind of forgive riders who may have been lead into taking PEDs by their teams, but for goodness sake dealing in the stuff is just despicable. As far as I am concerned the blood of Pantani is on the hands of every person who ever dealt in or administered these drugs. Some people may consider that a harsh position but that is how I see it.

 

[Benotti69]

Can I also ask where the insult was to Papp.

Dope dealing, check.
Drug cheating, check.

If you don't wan to be labelled a dope dealing drug cheat then don't do it in the first place. Why the hell should I have to worry about calling him a dope dealing drug cheat when that is exactly what he is.

I can kind of forgive riders who may have been lead into taking PEDs by their teams, but for goodness sake dealing in the stuff is just despicable. As far as I am concerned the blood of Pantani is on the hands of every person who ever dealt in or administered these drugs. Some people may consider that a harsh position but that is how I see it.

Pro peloton - Drug cheating 90%+, check
Pro peloton - Dope dealing 25%+, check



How do you think riders get their dope? Other riders and doctors.

Continuing slagging Joe Papp for what lots of other athletes have done in their athletic career is OTT.