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- Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
And he's still going strong...just a couple of years ago he and Randy Corcoran did a 46:57 on a tandem. Based on that and a few other bits of data, I'm guessing that Frey could still do a high 52/low 53 on the Moriarty course (which is reputed to have gotten a bit slower over the years).
BigBoat said:Thats where we seem to run into problems. Riis who finished behind him on that day had a 60% crit....so did em....most of the top 20. Then there's Obree's statement he was sacked by his team for not wanting to take drugs.
Its just a little hard to believe. Not that I have anything against Chris Boardman. He seems like a really good guy.
It amazes me the massive amount of criticism Papp gets for speaking his mind. It reminds me of of The GodFather in all honesty. Guys dont admit to doping for a reason. So Andy, your contradicting yourself in the since that you want Papp to shut up, yet you complain that doping is ruining sport.
I agree, doping is a negative, the same that prostitution is. But its almost impossible to stop. You can discourage it I guess but.....
But Papp isn't speaking his mind. He's bringing forward unsubstantiated rumour and giving it the full 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' treatment. That's totally unfair. So Boardman finished in a group containing dopers on one day in one race? Yes, he did. What, pray tell, does that prove? Even his fellow pro's acknowledge that Boardman was clean. There isn't one single shred of evidence or even rumour (the oxygen of the Clinic) about Boardman. His racing record does not even hint at substance abuse. He was a specialist in short ITT and almost invariably got shelled out in the mountains.
I don't want Papp to shut up. I've had a pop at the guy over this issue, but still value his contribution. However, this is the Clinic's central problem: Not everybody in the pro peleton 1990 to present doped. Chris Boardman didn't dope and it belittles his achievements to say that he did. Papp DID dope, and helped others to too. I don't mind him spilling the beans about other known dopers, he says some good stuff sometimes, but to have a go at Boardman is totally wrong. Mr Papp is not fit to comment on Chris Boardman, it's as simple as that.
Tell you what, let's all just say he DID dope and be done with it. Everyone feel better now? How about that David Moncoutie bloke, eh? He once pushed out 450 Watts on a training ride on Mont Du Catpeepee, oh that looks very suspicious, I reckon he MUST have been doping...
See? Easy to fling mud. And to respond to BigBoat's final comment, yes there is prostitution in the world, but that doesn't mean everybody in the world is paying to have nookie, some of us like doing it for free! Chris Boardman had (and continues to have) a successful career in cycling without ever having had to pay cash then bend over for Dr Ferrari to slip him one.
BigBoat said:
With respect, power, and speed in an hour time trial, are the same..
Thats where we seem to run into problems. Riis who finished behind him on that day had a 60% crit....so did em....most of the top 20. Then there's Obree's statement he was sacked by his team for not wanting to take drugs.
Its just a little hard to believe. Not that I have anything against Chris Boardman. He seems like a really good guy.
It amazes me the massive amount of criticism Papp gets for speaking his mind. It reminds me of of The GodFather in all honesty. Guys dont admit to doping for a reason. So Andy, and others who dislike Papps sentiment, your contradicting yourself in the sense that you want Papp to shut up, yet you complain that doping is ruining sport. I know Andy hasn't been nearly as mean as some on here so I dont want to directly blame him.
I agree, doping is a negative, the same that prostitution is. But its almost impossible to stop. You can discourage it I guess but.....
I don't want Papp to shut up. I just find it very odd that he has chosen to pull this debate out of his sleeve. There are hundreds of targets for a thread about doping, so why this one? Just because he happened to have a flashback about a conversation he had years ago, with a friend of a friend?
His wording in the original post seems innocent enough, but it should have been clear the effect it would have....
"I was just wondering if anyone had heard rumours that Joe Papp F###s* goats. Just asking like, no offence intended gov. Might not be true, etc etc"
*note to mods f###s, represents the word "farms"
acoggan said:Yeah, except for the fact that Frey set his record on a lonely 2-lane road at altitude, whereas Boardman set his (I presume) on a dual carriageway at/near sea level.
To be fair there isnt really a need to compare Boardmans ride as a boy, with Freys ride as a senior. Someone else made that comparison, not me.
However, it kind of proves a point when the ride of a 15 year old, who had only been cycling for a couple of years, is compared to the best ever US 40k TT.
Markyboyzx6r said:
I know you are joking, but you are in fact right on the power : it was in Paris-Nice 2001. Portoleau and Vayer calculated his power as 455 watts (69 kg) on the last day 10 km TT up Col d'Eze a.k.a. Catpeepee apparently in your neck of the woods
I assume Portoleau and Vayer excluded the flattish last stretch of the stage in their calculation, so that the 455 watts might be for perhaps an 18 min. effort.
1 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 19.53 (30.176 km/h)
2 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Fassa Bortolo 0.27
3 Jose Azevedo (Por) O.N.C.E. 0.41
4 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis 0.43
5 Marcellino Garcia (Spa) CSC-World Online 0.44
6 Alex Zulle (Swi) Team Coast
7 Mario Aerts (Bel) Lotto-Adecco 0.48
8 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Deutsche Telekom 0.53
9 Peter Van Petegem (Bel) Mercury-Viatel 1.08
10 David Etxebarria (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
What's nice when you look back on Moncoutié's best races is that it hardly ever fails : all the guys who beat him in uphill TTs end up being caught. Which, of course, for some people would be a proof that he used the same methods but got lucky for 16 years.
Here is the profile for the 2001 race up the Col d'Eze
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/resul...016.shtml#prof
and here the same (slightly shorter) stage for 2012.
http://www.letour.fr/2012/PNC/COURSE...par_etape.html
andy1234 said:
On that stage Boardman was part of the break.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/tour96/rep13.html
Still did well to stay up there and come second in the sprint from that group but maybe the others were watching each other?
Thanks for the link though. Didnt realise there was so much footage from the 1996 tour on youtube and think i may spend some time watching the other stages too. Some names from the past there. Interestingly, we actually see the Devil's wife in the Gary Imlach section from about 10 minutes to 11 minutes, she certainly has an odd way of travelling, as well as footage of the snow on the Galibier.
- Jun 7, 2011
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No chance Boardman was a doper. Think it was Kimmage's book where he mentioned a rider on Boardman's team who said that Boardman is about the only teammate he knew who didnt dope, or words to that effect.
- May 13, 2009
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Markyboyzx6r said:
Before you imply that you'll personally attack anyone, why don't you man-up and start posting in the clear so we can know exactly who you are. I mean, I know what you are - but I'd still like to know who you are. Are you a confidant of Boardman's who knows that he doped or something and don't want that getting out?
Martin318is said:
Are you seriously? Why did I ask the question here? Ummm, because it was a topic of interest and I usually find the correspondence facilitated by forums, email, twitter, facebook, etc. interesting. And please reference for me the Clinic thread discussing Boardman you imply exists.
Oh, and would you be so kind as to provide a list of riders and topics that are suitable for discussion in the Clinic?
Howcome we seem to often come up with 99.9% sure clean top athletes, with their peak performances coinciding with EPO glory, and even offering great calculated power outputs?
Howcome those top clean performances are so level with the best we've seen from the most doped athletes of the same era?
Howcome ultra talent+clean seem to equal super talent+dope?
Isn't EPO supposed to offered handsful of per cents of ower output? In light of the figures juggled about above, which part of the equasion does EPO affect to come to a higher power output?
I don't think Joe should be attacked as he is for just throwing up a name. Now he is doing the unprecedented, naming his source, and the source's source for the rumor.
Je could just be looking to add one name to "rare but clean" list from the 90's. How about a clean '92 Olympic winner, in a nearly pure VO2max event?
We are all hypocrit if we are to condemn anyone of declaring anyone being paid to ride a bike in the 90's to be clean unless proved dirty. For the 90's, we should (as we are The Clinic) approach it the other way around. Joe is looking to add a clean top performance from the 90's to the very, very short list in front of him. You don't search for just hints the ride was clean, but also listen to and look for evidence of the contrary.
I find Boardman's figures as mentioned high, very high. Let's say a 442W for an hours has been proven (by Boardman) as doable for a 69kg rider. What would an EPO'd 60%HC have gotten him, roughly? The Hour being the hour, high speed, relative low power, very high percentage of power output used for exponentially ramping air drag, even just 10% more power output (yes, 486W) would have meant only a couple kph's more.
I can see that a rider such as Boardman or Obree (I'd consider the latter clean way more easily if forced to choose) could be born as a pursuiter/Hour specialist, and not deal with roads as much. Or multi-day events.
But I can't imagine a clean super pursuiter/Hour guy to output more than a doped Indurain. I just don't see it. I want to. But can't.
Something on the relatively weak big mountain climbing of great time trialists then, shortly. I've often thought that good climbers were not necessarily those with the best power-to-weight, but those dealing best with the effect of a bike tinting back over by 10% while being seated on it. I know I deal with that horribly. My seated climbing always required realy steep seat angle. Straight seat post, seat slammed forward, and that for my >39" inseam. A slacker seat angle and my legs would just sour up, whatever I did. For reference, in my peak I was a lazy training 81kg/506W VO2max (offseason) mountainbiker. My one-hour effort was quite possible well under 90% of that. I always felt really strong for a single ~15min lap. Among my peers, I was in fact a better climber than flat racer, which one might not always expect me being both the tallest and heaviest in my class.
It's great that Boardman was such a natural talent at 15. Wasn't one young Taxas triathlete also? What can we still go by, if anything?
Howcome those top clean performances are so level with the best we've seen from the most doped athletes of the same era?
Howcome ultra talent+clean seem to equal super talent+dope?
Isn't EPO supposed to offered handsful of per cents of ower output? In light of the figures juggled about above, which part of the equasion does EPO affect to come to a higher power output?
I don't think Joe should be attacked as he is for just throwing up a name. Now he is doing the unprecedented, naming his source, and the source's source for the rumor.
Je could just be looking to add one name to "rare but clean" list from the 90's. How about a clean '92 Olympic winner, in a nearly pure VO2max event?
We are all hypocrit if we are to condemn anyone of declaring anyone being paid to ride a bike in the 90's to be clean unless proved dirty. For the 90's, we should (as we are The Clinic) approach it the other way around. Joe is looking to add a clean top performance from the 90's to the very, very short list in front of him. You don't search for just hints the ride was clean, but also listen to and look for evidence of the contrary.
I find Boardman's figures as mentioned high, very high. Let's say a 442W for an hours has been proven (by Boardman) as doable for a 69kg rider. What would an EPO'd 60%HC have gotten him, roughly? The Hour being the hour, high speed, relative low power, very high percentage of power output used for exponentially ramping air drag, even just 10% more power output (yes, 486W) would have meant only a couple kph's more.
I can see that a rider such as Boardman or Obree (I'd consider the latter clean way more easily if forced to choose) could be born as a pursuiter/Hour specialist, and not deal with roads as much. Or multi-day events.
But I can't imagine a clean super pursuiter/Hour guy to output more than a doped Indurain. I just don't see it. I want to. But can't.
Something on the relatively weak big mountain climbing of great time trialists then, shortly. I've often thought that good climbers were not necessarily those with the best power-to-weight, but those dealing best with the effect of a bike tinting back over by 10% while being seated on it. I know I deal with that horribly. My seated climbing always required realy steep seat angle. Straight seat post, seat slammed forward, and that for my >39" inseam. A slacker seat angle and my legs would just sour up, whatever I did. For reference, in my peak I was a lazy training 81kg/506W VO2max (offseason) mountainbiker. My one-hour effort was quite possible well under 90% of that. I always felt really strong for a single ~15min lap. Among my peers, I was in fact a better climber than flat racer, which one might not always expect me being both the tallest and heaviest in my class.
It's great that Boardman was such a natural talent at 15. Wasn't one young Taxas triathlete also? What can we still go by, if anything?
- Mar 17, 2009
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The same Alf who was regularly in trouble with the RTTC for riding in the middle of the lane? Drag strip courses didn't exist in quite the way you allege in the era he dominated. Ian Cammish & Boardman benefited far more from the dual carriageway courses. The fact is Engers went under the hour in 1953 on fixed, he was 13!! That's a 13 year old averaging 25 mile an hour!131313 said:
joe_papp said:
I guess the neutral objectivity of your original post no longer exists then Joe?
We know who you are, because you like it that way. Its not a sign of honesty, its a sign of vanity.
People know of you, because you embarrased yourself publicly, yet you seem happy to embrace and promote that recognition, regardless of its source.
It seems you are happy to hide behind the "friend of a friend" veiled accusation though.
So let me ask a question of you.
Do YOU think Boardman doped?
Yes or No.
- Mar 18, 2009
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ferryman said:
Nonsense. Smart folks^TM have been nibbling around the edges via the use of technology from the beginning of time.
In my own lifetime, for example, I can recall an article by Fred Matheny (I think) in Bicycling! magazine in the 1970s in which he advocated, e.g., using steel rather than aluminum handlebars for TTing, because frontal area/aerodynamics are more important than weight.
I will give you that this philosophy seems to more common on this side of the pond, and/or over in those who come into cycling from, e.g., motorsports...the Europeans have always tended to have a much more romantic outlook on the sport, thinking that it is all about the "engine".
- Mar 18, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Apparently ferryman thinks the "doping line" needs to be drawn at 6.1 W/kg, and not 6.4 W/kg.
That does, though, make him more liberal in his assessment than, e.g., Allen Lim, Scott Tucker, Jonathon Dugast, etc., who would put it ~10% (!!) below Boardman's quite well-documented abilities.
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