Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Miburo]

Re:

Has Bertie ever finished ahead Chris on a mountain top finish at the tour?

That's not fair, you've 2 tours. In one it was contador's worst year ever but ok. In the other one contador won the giro.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

Has Bertie ever finished ahead Chris on a mountain top finish at the tour?

Don't think so, but then again, a fully fit Bertie has never faced a Froome on a mountain in the Tour

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Has Bertie ever finished ahead Chris on a mountain top finish at the tour?

That's not fair, you've 2 tours. In one it was contador's worst year ever but ok. In the other one contador won the giro.

Life is often not fair

 

[djpbaltimore]

Bertie who has beat him in the last 2 tt's they have raced.

37 Martin Elmiger (Swi) IAM Cycling 0:00:50
38 Greg Van Avermaet (Bel) BMC Racing Team
39 Christopher Froome (GBr) Team Sky
40 Jerome Coppel (Fra) IAM Cycling 0:00:51
41 Gorka Izagirre (Spa) Movistar Team 0:00:53
42 Paul Martens (Ger) Team LottoNL-Jumbo 0:00:55
43 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Movistar Team 0:00:56
44 Daryl Impey (RSA) Orica GreenEdge 0:00:57
45 Andriy Grivko (Ukr) Astana Pro Team
46 Alberto Contador (Spa) Tinkoff-Saxo 0:00:58

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

Even Armstrong's level wasn't constant. There was up and down as well. ilc is on to something here. There is quite a deep reason behind this too, it's called regression to the mean. For instance, if one had known that Nibali's 2014 wasn't an upwards trend likely to continue but the very maximum of performance he is capable of under ideal condition, it was never going to be likely that he would have the same level the year after. The extraordinary (best form ever) is more likely to be followed by the ordinary (average form for that rider) than by the extraordinary (best form ever once again).

Of course, it also wasn't likely that Nibal would get dropped by 40 riders up a short hill.


Going back to Froome's prospects, I do think he'll suffer from worse form sooner or later. But his huge advantage is that in addition to being the best climber, his edge in time trialling is even greater, and there is nothing like time trials to guarantee time gaps. It's more reliable than climbing, and though Froome hasn't time trialled well in a long time, it just wasn't necessary. If he can regain his 2013 level, and there is no reason why he can't, he will be the clear favourite for any Tour, regardless of route , for years to come.

Froome the best climber, Did you watch the tour ,,,he got his as£ kicked in the mountains.
He got his as£ kicked at the Vuelta in the mountains ,,,,how his he the best climber? There is no evidence for that whatsoever. No wind split, no tour win.
He has regained his 2013 level ...he got dropped twice in 2013 have you forgot?

How will he win another tour? if its a mountain loaded tour Quintana ,Bertie [fit] will beat him.
He will need a long tt to get major time on Quintana but he wont get time, if any on Bertie who has beat him in the last 2 tt's they have raced.

This Tour was as biased towards the climbers as a GT can be. And Froome still won quite comfortably, holding yellow for 2/3 of a race and basically sealing the win by the end of stage 10.

And Froome won last TT against Contador (as other user already pointed out).

Not sure where are you getting your evidence from, other then just straight up pulling arguments out of a thin air.

 

[AA_ESP]

Re: Re:

IMO he is the strongest on single mountain stages. He has an insane acceleration and then he just keeps a high temp for the next 20-30 minutes. But as we saw this year he isn't thermonuclear on multi mountain stages or after many stages of climbing. This year Quintana gained more time on Froome in the mountains than Froome did on him.

Agree with this. He seems very strong on single mountain stages, that is stages which end with a Cat 1 or Cat HC mtf and include no other Cat 2 or up mountains earlier in the stage. Admittedly it's a very small sample size, but given these conditions, going back three years to TdF 2012 onwards his record is brilliant.

1st, 2012 Tour, Stage 7
1st, 2013 Dauphine, Stage 5
1st, 2013 Tour, Stage 15
5th, 2014 Vuelta, Stage 11
1st, 2015 Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol, Stage 4
1st, 2015 Tour, Stage 10

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

IMO he is the strongest on single mountain stages. He has an insane acceleration and then he just keeps a high temp for the next 20-30 minutes. But as we saw this year he isn't thermonuclear on multi mountain stages or after many stages of climbing. This year Quintana gained more time on Froome in the mountains than Froome did on him.

Agree with this. He seems very strong on single mountain stages, that is stages which end with a Cat 1 or Cat HC mtf and include no other Cat 2 or up mountains earlier in the stage. Admittedly it's a very small sample size, but given these conditions, going back three years to TdF 2012 onwards his record is brilliant.

1st, 2012 Tour, Stage 7
1st, 2013 Dauphine, Stage 5
1st, 2013 Tour, Stage 15
5th, 2014 Vuelta, Stage 11
1st, 2015 Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol, Stage 4
1st, 2015 Tour, Stage 10

To add to that, it also seems like when he's actually up for it (Don't think he was really up for it in 2014 Vuelta, didn't know he was a contender in 2011 Vuelta at the time) he really targets the first stage:

2012 Tour, Stage 7, 1st
2012 Vuelta, Stage 3, 3rd
2013 Dauphine, Stage 5, 1st
2013 Tour, Stage 8, 1st
2014 Dauphine, Stage 2, 1st
2015 Tour, Stage 10, 1st

 

[AA_ESP]

Re: Re:

IMO he is the strongest on single mountain stages. He has an insane acceleration and then he just keeps a high temp for the next 20-30 minutes. But as we saw this year he isn't thermonuclear on multi mountain stages or after many stages of climbing. This year Quintana gained more time on Froome in the mountains than Froome did on him.

Agree with this. He seems very strong on single mountain stages, that is stages which end with a Cat 1 or Cat HC mtf and include no other Cat 2 or up mountains earlier in the stage. Admittedly it's a very small sample size, but given these conditions, going back three years to TdF 2012 onwards his record is brilliant.

1st, 2012 Tour, Stage 7
1st, 2013 Dauphine, Stage 5
1st, 2013 Tour, Stage 15
5th, 2014 Vuelta, Stage 11
1st, 2015 Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol, Stage 4
1st, 2015 Tour, Stage 10

To add to that, it also seems like when he's actually up for it (Don't think he was really up for it in 2014 Vuelta, didn't know he was a contender in 2011 Vuelta at the time) he really targets the first stage:

2012 Tour, Stage 7, 1st
2012 Vuelta, Stage 3, 3rd
2013 Dauphine, Stage 5, 1st
2013 Tour, Stage 8, 1st
2014 Dauphine, Stage 2, 1st
2015 Tour, Stage 10, 1st

That is also very interesting.

I'm not totally convinced he will show up at the Vuelta, but if he does, looking at what we've both posted, Stage 7 should be worth keeping an eye on.

 

[sienna]

Re:

Froome is briitish, kenyan and south african in a similar way, but he is a world citizen, so I am spanish and I am proud of him as well.

Having a look at the make up of the English cricket team over the years would provide a clue as well.

 

[wendybnt]

I had a mammoth tv session last night watching the racing from the last 7 days of the tour as I wasn't able to previously, plus had lost a bit of interest after the early exits of Greg and Jack.

I'm not a fan of the whole loudmouth Sky approach, but you've got to hand it to them, they played their cards to near perfection and the errors of the other main contenders were stark, in particular Movistar's leaving it too late to play their hand and Saxo not being able to use their strength to any effect.

The biggest surprise to me this year was the improvement in Froome's riding, both technically and strategically. Bike handling was actually quite good!

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Even Armstrong's level wasn't constant. There was up and down as well. ilc is on to something here. There is quite a deep reason behind this too, it's called regression to the mean. For instance, if one had known that Nibali's 2014 wasn't an upwards trend likely to continue but the very maximum of performance he is capable of under ideal condition, it was never going to be likely that he would have the same level the year after. The extraordinary (best form ever) is more likely to be followed by the ordinary (average form for that rider) than by the extraordinary (best form ever once again).

Of course, it also wasn't likely that Nibal would get dropped by 40 riders up a short hill.


Going back to Froome's prospects, I do think he'll suffer from worse form sooner or later. But his huge advantage is that in addition to being the best climber, his edge in time trialling is even greater, and there is nothing like time trials to guarantee time gaps. It's more reliable than climbing, and though Froome hasn't time trialled well in a long time, it just wasn't necessary. If he can regain his 2013 level, and there is no reason why he can't, he will be the clear favourite for any Tour, regardless of route , for years to come.

Froome the best climber, Did you watch the tour ,,,he got his as£ kicked in the mountains.
He got his as£ kicked at the Vuelta in the mountains ,,,,how his he the best climber? There is no evidence for that whatsoever. No wind split, no tour win.
He has regained his 2013 level ...he got dropped twice in 2013 have you forgot?

How will he win another tour? if its a mountain loaded tour Quintana ,Bertie [fit] will beat him.
He will need a long tt to get major time on Quintana but he wont get time, if any on Bertie who has beat him in the last 2 tt's they have raced.

Take it easy, Ray. You've been in a coma for a month.

Sorry I forgot about a tt , The huge gap was significant

where is this 20 minute awesome Froome effort? he tried a bonkers attack against Bertie at the dauphine in 2014 and couldn't drop Bertie and just spent the rest of the race trying to recover. "he was not injured ,does he look injured here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FXKGLM-cMc
sky train in full mode , Froome attacks but can't catch Bertie ,,,Froome is not injured , he just beaten.

He did one attack in this years tour and Quintana got beat by Porte as well. Spinning fast in a granny ring looks bonkers if your have no competition ,it don't look so good when you are getting beaten.

Facts not myth

 

[wendybnt]

Looking back, it looks to me that Sky and Movistar both made a calculation based on a tour route with all the hard stuff featuring right at the end.

Movistar got it wrong. That doesn't mean that Froome is a better climber, but that his team got their calculations right. No early gains by Froome=no tour win.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

I had a mammoth tv session last night watching the racing from the last 7 days of the tour as I wasn't able to previously, plus had lost a bit of interest after the early exits of Greg and Jack.

I'm not a fan of the whole loudmouth Sky approach, but you've got to hand it to them, they played their cards to near perfection and the errors of the other main contenders were stark, in particular Movistar's leaving it too late to play their hand and Saxo not being able to use their strength to any effect.

The biggest surprise to me this year was the improvement in Froome's riding, both technically and strategically. Bike handling was actually quite good!

Froome is no Nibs on a wet descent, but he's not as bad as Wiggo.
Last year he busted his wrist and crashed on roundabouts before he even got to the cobbles.
This all got blown out of proportion and lot of not true assumptions were made about his handling skills.
He was ok downhill in the tour, not so good on the technical bends, he went way off line more than once but good enough. It certainly was not like watching Pinot,,,that was scary

"No early gains by Froome=no tour win " spot on ,2014 proved this a fact.
When Froome does get beat " he's not on form"

 

[wendybnt]

I know it is an unpopular view in some quarters here but I felt a grudging respect for Froome this time around. I think he had to work really hard whilst at the same time keeping his head really cool.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

I know it is an unpopular view in some quarters here but I felt a grudging respect for Froome this time around. I think he had to work really hard whilst at the same time keeping his head really cool.

I agree , Froomes victory was very worthy. He rode a fantastic tour and I enjoyed his victory.
I can't remember what stage it was but at one point he was all alone surrounded by most of the movie team, it was a great image. For me it showed how strong Froome was and how Movie seemed to have no idea what they were doing

 

[wwabbit]

Article talking about Froome's descending
http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/9927438/froome-the-rough-diamond

 

[Savant12]

Re:

Article talking about Froome's descending
http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/9927438/froome-the-rough-diamond

Good post! Nice to read about his early physiological potential too and the fact that his current ability didn't just come out of nowhere.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Article talking about Froome's descending
http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/9927438/froome-the-rough-diamond

Good post! Nice to read about his early physiological potential too and the fact that his current ability didn't just come out of nowhere.

The making of the Sky narrative........

 

[oldcrank]

Re:

Article talking about Froome's descending
http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/9927438/froome-the-rough-diamond

The Lion of the Savannah must learn and master all
the techniques of a successful hunt if he is to remain
at the top of the food chain and retain his dominance.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

IMO he is the strongest on single mountain stages. He has an insane acceleration and then he just keeps a high temp for the next 20-30 minutes. But as we saw this year he isn't thermonuclear on multi mountain stages or after many stages of climbing. This year Quintana gained more time on Froome in the mountains than Froome did on him.

Agree with this. He seems very strong on single mountain stages, that is stages which end with a Cat 1 or Cat HC mtf and include no other Cat 2 or up mountains earlier in the stage. Admittedly it's a very small sample size, but given these conditions, going back three years to TdF 2012 onwards his record is brilliant.

1st, 2012 Tour, Stage 7
1st, 2013 Dauphine, Stage 5
1st, 2013 Tour, Stage 15
5th, 2014 Vuelta, Stage 11
1st, 2015 Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol, Stage 4
1st, 2015 Tour, Stage 10

Froome is not a pure climber, is a complete rider.
He is very good in long stages with lot of long climbs.

Quintana is a supertalented climber, he is better climber, so he is normal he climb better in demanding climbing stages.

You can say that of others riders, not of Froome.

A complete rider is going to be better in the first mountain stage than a pure climber, becouse you pay all the flat of the forst weak.

Later in the race, with more climbing stages in the legs, a pure climber could be better. But if you compare with the rest, not with Quintana, Froome has been always the best in the mountains.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

IMO he is the strongest on single mountain stages. He has an insane acceleration and then he just keeps a high temp for the next 20-30 minutes. But as we saw this year he isn't thermonuclear on multi mountain stages or after many stages of climbing. This year Quintana gained more time on Froome in the mountains than Froome did on him.

Agree with this. He seems very strong on single mountain stages, that is stages which end with a Cat 1 or Cat HC mtf and include no other Cat 2 or up mountains earlier in the stage. Admittedly it's a very small sample size, but given these conditions, going back three years to TdF 2012 onwards his record is brilliant.

1st, 2012 Tour, Stage 7
1st, 2013 Dauphine, Stage 5
1st, 2013 Tour, Stage 15
5th, 2014 Vuelta, Stage 11
1st, 2015 Andalucia Ruta Ciclista Del Sol, Stage 4
1st, 2015 Tour, Stage 10

Froome is not a pure climber, is a complete rider.
He is very good in long stages with lot of long climbs.

Quintana is a supertalented climber, he is better climber, so he is normal he climb better in demanding climbing stages.

You can say that of others riders, not of Froome.

A complete rider is going to be better in the first mountain stage than a pure climber, becouse you pay all the flat of the forst weak.

Later in the race, with more climbing stages in the legs, a pure climber could be better. But if you compare with the rest, not with Quintana, Froome has been always the best in the mountains.

So you just ignore 2014? Vuelta , Dauphine You should take a look at this, you must have missed all this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE


and what about this year when Bertie dropped Froome from 10km out. That was the first climb of the race? You just make it up as you go along ,,,,get some facts

 

[djpbaltimore]

Why not? You pretty much ignore 2013.

 

[movingtarget]

For all the talk about Froome's bike handling it's Contador that crashes on descents more often. It's hilarious on the Contador thread where fans are celebrating a weather forecast for rain. if your idol is depending on wet weather to win a GT then things are getting desperate. As for the definition of being pure climber. Years ago a pure climber was a rider who could climb well but could not do much else. There are no pure climbers around now battling for GC as you have to be an all rounder in today's racing. The old days of climbers winning a stage by 10 minutes are long gone. Quintana has the abilities of a pure climber but also can do a good TT. I think Landa is a more of a pure climber in the classic sense as he is pretty much a climber and not much else, Rodriguez would be another one but one with a good uphill sprint as well. Wiggins, Basso,Evans, TJVG,Froome and even Nibali are not pure climbers. The only difference is that Froome has the acceleration not typical of a diesel type of rider and he does not have to stand in the pedals to do it which is very different to other riders. Armstrong was a bit similar to Froome, but even he did not get the cadence sitting down that Froome does. I think Contador is similar to Quintana, more in the pure climber mould but also one that can do a very good TT. Not a diesel type rider at all.

 

[TI-Raleigh]

Re: Re:

"No early gains by Froome=no tour win " spot on ,2014 proved this a fact.
When Froome does get beat " he's not on form"

Huh, it's funny; that's the exact same excuse you use for Contador. Pot calling the kettle black much?

As a further note, I am not a Contador hater. I think the numbers show he is one of the best GT riders of all time. I just think he gets free passes where other less popular riders do not.

 

[Savant12]

Re: Re:

Article talking about Froome's descending
http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/9927438/froome-the-rough-diamond

Good post! Nice to read about his early physiological potential too and the fact that his current ability didn't just come out of nowhere.

The making of the Sky narrative........

More evidence than the anti-Froome/Sky bandwagon.