Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[tretiak]

Re:

Now that's just cherry picking so hard you could feed an orphanage.

:lol:

 

[BetOrLose]

How in the UCI leaked the case is the most important questition the person should be prosecuted and fired!

 

[Valv.Piti]

Yeah, thats a lot *** to be spewed right there.

I was not a fan of Contador's really, especially not after I joined this forum and got into some heated discussions with some of his fans. Still, I also admired him, even more so now. Contador was spectacular and won 9 GTs. 9! Thats a lot. In his later years a combination of bad luck, poor bike handling, the doping case and relatively unconsistent shape meant he could quit never quite gain his level from 07-11 apart from that mythical 2014 season. But he is just so much, much better than your are making him out to be. A true legend and one I really hope will go down as a bigger rider than Froomey.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Still wouldn’t call myself a fan, but he’s gradually worn me down with his doomed persistence in Vuelta 2014, his downhill attack and sojourn off the front with Sagan in 2015, his run up Ventoux in 2016, his attack from super far in the Giro, and his grittiness in the Tour while clearly far from his best. I have to say, the only person in the horizon with his champion’s mentality is *possibly* Dumoulin, who doesn’t have quite the killer instinct of Froome. 1/3 double is pretty incredible. He looked a little tired but didn’t lose minutes on climbs like Contador and Quintana. Very impressive.

Don’t forget that he always is Sky train dependant. His legacy would be much greater if that wasn’t the fact.

As a Contador fan, I wish he had had the benefit of the Sky train (edited by mod) and believe his palmares would have been even better. However, as an objective observer, Froome has done plenty away from the Sky train with big attacks, superior descending, and crafty racing. I think he easily could have won Vuelta 2011, Tour 2012 if not for Sky team objectives and might have lost a couple Tours to Contador if the teams had been reversed. Anyways, I think Froome’s legacy is strong and deserves to be in the echelon with Indurain and Contador a notch below Hinault and Merckx, IMO. All have reasons to visit the clinic so I see no reason to discriminate in that grounds.

That is just silly.

In the 5 tours they rode together Froome won 4. The closest Contador got to Froome was over 6 mins. His second best Tour was 9 minutes behind Froome. Since Contador won the 2009 against no competition his best placement on a mountain top finish cat 2 or higher when not in a breakawaywas 6th place. He simply was not able to ride with the top riders on a MTF.

Contador was not a competitor to Froome he was just another guy fighting for a top 10. No comparison. Better to compare Contador to Mollema but Mollema has ridden better at the Tour the last 9 years.

Contador rode in a time when the field was depleted and riders who could not compete for top 10s today were winning like Perrerro, Sastre, Rasmussen and Evan's. The field was si weak even Voekler was riding GC, getting 4tg in the tour dropping Contador on all the climbs.

Well the main point I was trying to make that, much as ValvPiti has come around to Contador, I have come around to Froome. But your arguments are ridiculous. Check some of Contador’s climbing times and who he beats in ITTs. Compared to Molllema? Lol.

 

[Oliwright]

The contador vs froome debate is probably one for the clinic, ... edited by mod

But purely on achievement, Contador won 2/3 Tours & 7/9 Gts. Froome's won 4 Tours & 6 Gts. So depending on your weighting of the Tour vs the Giro & Vuelta, Contador or Froome wins in Palmares terms.

IMO I think Froome has finally passed Contador, with how many 2nds & 3rds he has in GTs & that Contador will sadly always go down with an asterisk, although I believe him re clenbuterol.

 

[YavorD]

Well, with all the respect tu Contador, I don't think his GT palmares would be different in Sky. He didn't lost any GT because of a weak team. He didn't had the legs or just crashed too often, which doesn't necessary has anything in common with a strong team. Also I'd rate Froome's palmares over Contador in a GT. Contador has 7(8) GT's (please do not an arguement for the Tour 2010, because if you count it , you can count out the 2007 which was basically given to him after Rasmussen's case, so one Tour taken, One tour given). Froome has 6, considering he made a double (was actually in contention for another double this year), has more tours and 5 more podiums (I think)... so he has the edge to me.
However both of them are great champions with a champions mentality who are ready to go in attack all in, but in all fairness is easier to go all in being a Froome/Nibali/Contador, you've already won everything and another 5-th place wont mean a thing then a rider for whom the 5-th is a good achievement.

 

[SHAD0W93]

If he was on Sky that would have been an insane boast and he very well could have accomplished the double in 2011 considering Saxo was trash that year. Who knows, maybe with a stronger team he could not have crashed as much because less nerves. Contador almost always had teams not 100% dedicated to him, riders with their own personal ambition, or a teammate and manager doing everything possible to stab him in the back. That has to be extremely stressful.

Between him and Froome, no matter their history or like of either rider, have 9 and 6 as well as their victories outside of Grand Tours respectfully. Yes, Contador has won 9 on the road and we have no idea if Rasmussen would have actually won. Both have had amazing careers and despite my dislike of Froome, he had a solid double attempt. Results between the 2 I would think Contador is ahead but I am biased.

We will see next year if he can win his 5th tour.

 

[lartiste]

Re:

If he was on Sky that would have been an insane boast and he very well could have accomplished the double in 2011 considering Saxo was trash that year. Who knows, maybe with a stronger team he could not have crashed as much because less nerves. Contador almost always had teams not 100% dedicated to him, riders with their own personal ambition, or a teammate and manager doing everything possible to stab him in the back. That has to be extremely stressful.

Between him and Froome, no matter their history or like of either rider, have 9 and 6 as well as their victories outside of Grand Tours respectfully. Yes, Contador has won 9 on the road and we have no idea if Rasmussen would have actually won. Both have had amazing careers and despite my dislike of Froome, he had a solid double attempt. Results between the 2 I would think Contador is ahead but I am biased.

We will see next year if he can win his 5th tour.

If he would be in Sky, he would never become a legend, nevertheless how many GT he would win. You will never become legend sitting behind your team all the time ... .

 

[oldcrank]

Still wouldn’t call myself a fan, but he’s gradually worn me down with his doomed persistence in Vuelta 2014, his downhill attack and sojourn off the front with Sagan in 2015, his run up Ventoux in 2016, his attack from super far in the Giro, and his grittiness in the Tour while clearly far from his best. I have to say, the only person in the horizon with his champion’s mentality is *possibly* Dumoulin, who doesn’t have quite the killer instinct of Froome. 1/3 double is pretty incredible. He looked a little tired but didn’t lose minutes on climbs like Contador and Quintana. Very impressive.

Don’t forget that he always is Sky train dependant. His legacy would be much greater if that wasn’t the fact.

As a Contador fan, I wish he had had the benefit of the Sky train (edited by mod) and believe his palmares would have been even better. However, as an objective observer, Froome has done plenty away from the Sky train with big attacks, superior descending, and crafty racing. I think he easily could have won Vuelta 2011, Tour 2012 if not for Sky team objectives and might have lost a couple Tours to Contador if the teams had been reversed. Anyways, I think Froome’s legacy is strong and deserves to be in the echelon with Indurain and Contador a notch below Hinault and Merckx, IMO. All have reasons to visit the clinic so I see no reason to discriminate in that grounds.

That is just silly.

In the 5 tours they rode together Froome won 4. The closest Contador got to Froome was over 6 mins. His second best Tour was 9 minutes behind Froome. Since Contador won the 2009 against no competition his best placement on a mountain top finish cat 2 or higher when not in a breakawaywas 6th place. He simply was not able to ride with the top riders on a MTF.

Contador was not a competitor to Froome he was just another guy fighting for a top 10. No comparison. Better to compare Contador to Mollema but Mollema has ridden better at the Tour the last 9 years.

Contador rode in a time when the field was depleted and riders who could not compete for top 10s today were winning like Perrerro, Sastre, Rasmussen and Evan's. The field was si weak even Voekler was riding GC, getting 4tg in the tour dropping Contador on all the climbs.

Couldn't agree more, Chomsky. Excellent post.

 

[Chomsky]

Still wouldn’t call myself a fan, but he’s gradually worn me down with his doomed persistence in Vuelta 2014, his downhill attack and sojourn off the front with Sagan in 2015, his run up Ventoux in 2016, his attack from super far in the Giro, and his grittiness in the Tour while clearly far from his best. I have to say, the only person in the horizon with his champion’s mentality is *possibly* Dumoulin, who doesn’t have quite the killer instinct of Froome. 1/3 double is pretty incredible. He looked a little tired but didn’t lose minutes on climbs like Contador and Quintana. Very impressive.

Don’t forget that he always is Sky train dependant. His legacy would be much greater if that wasn’t the fact.

As a Contador fan, I wish he had had the benefit of the Sky train (edited by mod) and believe his palmares would have been even better. However, as an objective observer, Froome has done plenty away from the Sky train with big attacks, superior descending, and crafty racing. I think he easily could have won Vuelta 2011, Tour 2012 if not for Sky team objectives and might have lost a couple Tours to Contador if the teams had been reversed. Anyways, I think Froome’s legacy is strong and deserves to be in the echelon with Indurain and Contador a notch below Hinault and Merckx, IMO. All have reasons to visit the clinic so I see no reason to discriminate in that grounds.

That is just silly.

In the 5 tours they rode together Froome won 4. The closest Contador got to Froome was over 6 mins. His second best Tour was 9 minutes behind Froome. Since Contador won the 2009 against no competition his best placement on a mountain top finish cat 2 or higher when not in a breakawaywas 6th place. He simply was not able to ride with the top riders on a MTF.

Contador was not a competitor to Froome he was just another guy fighting for a top 10. No comparison. Better to compare Contador to Mollema but Mollema has ridden better at the Tour the last 9 years.

Contador rode in a time when the field was depleted and riders who could not compete for top 10s today were winning like Perrerro, Sastre, Rasmussen and Evan's. The field was si weak even Voekler was riding GC, getting 4tg in the tour dropping Contador on all the climbs.

Well the main point I was trying to make that, much as ValvPiti has come around to Contador, I have come around to Froome. But your arguments are ridiculous. Check some of Contador’s climbing times and who he beats in ITTs. Compared to Molllema? Lol.

To be considered great you have to be able to beat the best at their peak. When riding in the peleton Contadors best finish since 2009 on a MTF was sixth. He has demonstrated quite clearly since 2009 that he cannot hang with the top group of riders on a climb. Mollema at least has had success and been able to contest MTFs.

Contadors early success quite came against 3rd tier riders. Guys who could never be a team leader in today's tour. Sastre, Rasmussen, 38 year old Armstrong, Evan's, Schleck, and Voeckler are not top tier competitions which explains why Contadors best finish against froome is 6 mins 27 secs. When the GC field eventually restocked after Puerta Contadors easy life ended when he had to go against actual competition.

Contador was a fine rider with the ability to hold his form throughout the season so he could beat 2nd tier or tired riders in the Vuelta or Giro. But in the tour he was never a legitimate contender that could even challenge for a stage win against the best besides beating a guy like Froome for the overall.

 

[huge]

This is so funny... as always, end of a GT... start of the discussion on which guy has got it longer

 

[movingtarget]

Contador peaked early in his career. To say his opposition was third rate is ridiculous and ignorant. The main reason he had trouble against Sky and Froome at the Tour even though he was getting older was that he couldn't stop crashing. Hard to believe he had no Tour podiums after 2010. He may not have beaten Froome but he probably would have had a few podiums. 2014 he was favourite but they both crashed out and that was a major disappointment because Contador seemed in great form that year and the big three were all racing in the same race for a change so the interest levels were high.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Yeah, thats a lot *** to be spewed right there.

I was not a fan of Contador's really, especially not after I joined this forum and got into some heated discussions with some of his fans. Still, I also admired him, even more so now. Contador was spectacular and won 9 GTs. 9! Thats a lot. In his later years a combination of bad luck, poor bike handling, the doping case and relatively unconsistent shape meant he could quit never quite gain his level from 07-11 apart from that mythical 2014 season. But he is just so much, much better than your are making him out to be. A true legend and one I really hope will go down as a bigger rider than Froomey.

Thank you Valv.Piti

 

[LaFlorecita]

As a Contador fan, I wish he had had the benefit of the Sky train (edited by mod) and believe his palmares would have been even better.

No way. He wouldn't be nearly as loved as he is now if he had raced for sky. Just look at the massive difference between the international opinion on Contador vs Froome, and Contador even had his clinic issue but despite that the fans' general opinion is still favorable compared to Froome (internationally)

 

[SHAD0W93]

I was going to respond back with breakdown of both Froome's and Contador's GT wins but that post was obviously bait. The people Contador competed against had multiple GT wins, podiums, and top 10's. Pereiro and Voeckler were never competitors of Contador and got in that postision from breakaways.

No, if Contador had the Sky train he would not be as liked but he would have won more GTs and very likely to have done the double in 11. The only time Contador has had a stacked team was Astana 08-09 and that still had Levi and Armstrong competing against him.

This debate is silly as it will go nowhere amongst the fans of either rider. I don't like Froome but he had a good double attempt. I hope he doesn't win another GT but I have been wrong before about him.

 

[Singer01]

The weak era contador argument is as nonsensical as the weak era federer one. Both at their best made everyone else look second rate, and styled it out while doing it. Killers competing, gentlemen outside of the arena.

 

[dacooley]

Futile comparisons. Froome's and Contador's eras didn't intersect by and large. When Contador was taking his gts, nobody heard of Froome as a possible gc contender, as well as when Froome was stepping up in a possition of strongest gt rider in 2015, Contador already passed his prime. To each his own. All of us realize Contador couldn't fare in Sky because that's a team focused on developing british riders. On top of that, he wouldn't been loved by so many, providing Sky somehow had decided to sign him.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

If he was on Sky that would have been an insane boast and he very well could have accomplished the double in 2011 considering Saxo was trash that year. Who knows, maybe with a stronger team he could not have crashed as much because less nerves. Contador almost always had teams not 100% dedicated to him, riders with their own personal ambition, or a teammate and manager doing everything possible to stab him in the back. That has to be extremely stressful.

Between him and Froome, no matter their history or like of either rider, have 9 and 6 as well as their victories outside of Grand Tours respectfully. Yes, Contador has won 9 on the road and we have no idea if Rasmussen would have actually won. Both have had amazing careers and despite my dislike of Froome, he had a solid double attempt. Results between the 2 I would think Contador is ahead but I am biased.

We will see next year if he can win his 5th tour.

If he would be in Sky, he would never become a legend, nevertheless how many GT he would win. You will never become legend sitting behind your team all the time ... .

There's no need in setting deliberate contrasts, since Froome has become a legend as well. No matter how it might hurt the most knowledgeable international cycling audience.

 

[Pennino]

Luckily, although many people tend to think otherwise, cycling is about much more than the TdF. And more than the Giro. And more than the Vuelta. Contador attacked for glory at almost ANY of all the MTF's he has ridden, especially since 2011. If he just had aimed for highest as possible he probably would have had a couple of podiums, but he rightly prefers it the way he has done, as we all do.

Maybe they should have transformed in into another watts pushing robot, with all due respect for those who can push those extraordinary numbers. But luckily they didn't.

 

[dacooley]

Re:

Luckily, although many people tend to think otherwise, cycling is about much more than the TdF. And more than the Giro. And more than the Vuelta. Contador attacked for glory at almost ANY of all the MTF's he has ridden, especially since 2011. If he just had aimed for highest as possible he probably would have had a couple of podiums, but he rightly prefers it the way he has done, as we all do.

Maybe they should have transformed in into another watts pushing robot, with all due respect for those who can push those extraordinary numbers. But luckily they didn't.

would you be so kind to provide a single credible distinction between verbier and pierre saint martin watt-pushing machines?

 

[Singer01]

Take it to the clinic.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Please drop the Clinic talk, and if you don't want to, just go there.

 

[dacooley]

Re:

Take it to the clinic.

it has nothing to do with clinics. Some folks see two dominant showings in MTFs to put a black or while label on it depending on who they cheer for. After 1-3-5 years they go into Contador / Froome thread and try to elaborate why their boy is king, while other one just was in luck with weak opposition/train. Hell, it's so laughable. More of emotional involvement judgement rather than measured dispute.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

The weak era contador argument is as nonsensical as the weak era federer one. Both at their best made everyone else look second rate, and styled it out while doing it. Killers competing, gentlemen outside of the arena.

I hereby postulate Red Rick's law.

As an online discussion grows longer about two athletes who dominated slightly different periods, the probability of a comparison involving weak era's approaches 1

 

[Roku]

Here's my two cents:

- Contador was a better rider than Froome, though his palmares might be a bit worse regarding GT (I rate 4 TDF + 1 Giro + 1 Vuelta higher than 2 TDF + 2/3 Giro + 3 Vuelta), though it is very close.

- Contador faced similar opposition to Froome, regarding quality level. Schleck was an extremely similar rider to Quintana and had a better and more dedicated team at his service (Frank, Fuglsang, Cancellara, Voigt...). Evans would achieve similar features in today's peloton. Menchov was an excellent rider with a weak mentality, but at his best smashed the peloton. Sastre was way better than Bardet, Uran, Pinot and other mediocre climbers Froome has faced. However, I rate Nibali and Dumo better than them. So i would say Froome has faced better competition at some Tours/Giros, worse at others.