Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Sciatic]

Number 5 is back on. Bike position must be costing him like 100w, even impacting his TT setup somehow I guess

Froome changes bike positions "by centimetres" after "oversight" caused errors

Chris Froome has said a recent comparison between his 2023 racing bike and one from his Sky/Ineos days revealed very significant errors in his set-up

www.stickybottle.com

This seems pretty weird—who doesn’t notice (even among us lowly recreational cyclists) when there’s a big change in their position setup—and by centimeters?! Not everyone is obsessive as Mercx but I think most of us would notice a a 1-2 centimeter change in saddle height, even if we’ve been off the bike over a long winter.
But I guess we can just file this away with “getting the hard mikes in” and the “numbers are looking good.”

 

[proffate]

This seems pretty weird—who doesn’t notice (even among us lowly recreational cyclists) when there’s a big change in their position setup—and by centimeters?! Not everyone is obsessive as Mercx but I think most of us would notice a a 1-2 centimeter change in saddle height, even if we’ve been off the bike over a long winter.
But I guess we can just file this away with “getting the hard mikes in” and the “numbers are looking good.”

I wonder whether he believes this crap himself.

 

[awavey]

This seems pretty weird—who doesn’t notice (even among us lowly recreational cyclists) when there’s a big change in their position setup—and by centimeters?! Not everyone is obsessive as Mercx but I think most of us would notice a a 1-2 centimeter change in saddle height, even if we’ve been off the bike over a long winter.
But I guess we can just file this away with “getting the hard mikes in” and the “numbers are looking good.”

but he did notice it, through the back pain, through never feeling that comfortable on the bike, the problem is he put it down to age, because people keep telling him he is too old to ride a bike professionally probably put part of it down to his injury and partly just the Factor feels different to the Pino because it has a different geometry.

I think people dont realise the pro teams really dont do proper bike fit checks as youd think they should, even at Ineos, it was left to the rider to sort themselves beyond a cursory setup, and theres plenty of anecdotes from TeamGB of riders in absolutely agony riding their bikes because they thought it was meant to be uncomfortable, and only after going to seek medical assistance for their pain got proper bike fits, which fixed their issues.

as for IPT, well read Dowsett's book if you want to understand how disorganised they are. It wouldnt surprise me if it eventually came out they got told Froomes measurements and just forget to set the bike up.

 

[Sciatic]

but he did notice it, through the back pain, through never feeling that comfortable on the bike, the problem is he put it down to age, because people keep telling him he is too old to ride a bike professionally probably put part of it down to his injury and partly just the Factor feels different to the Pino because it has a different geometry.

I think people dont realise the pro teams really dont do proper bike fit checks as youd think they should, even at Ineos, it was left to the rider to sort themselves beyond a cursory setup, and theres plenty of anecdotes from TeamGB of riders in absolutely agony riding their bikes because they thought it was meant to be uncomfortable, and only after going to seek medical assistance for their pain got proper bike fits, which fixed their issues.

as for IPT, well read Dowsett's book if you want to understand how disorganised they are. It wouldnt surprise me if it eventually came out they got told Froomes measurements and just forget to set the bike up.

I certainly didn’t know that. I just know I immediately notice if my saddle height differs by a 1/4 inch from my normal, so I assume pros would as well. But I guess it’s possible that his pelvic structure and leg alignment was so wonky when he 1st got on the bike after the accident nothing felt “right”

 

[rote_laterne2]

This seems pretty weird—who doesn’t notice (even among us lowly recreational cyclists) when there’s a big change in their position setup—and by centimeters?! Not everyone is obsessive as Mercx but I think most of us would notice a a 1-2 centimeter change in saddle height, even if we’ve been off the bike over a long winter.
But I guess we can just file this away with “getting the hard mikes in” and the “numbers are looking good.”

I'm pretty sure the Dane is already shitting himself. The numbers were good for at least the last two years. So now with his bike fitting like at his Sky/INEOS days he'll be back to winning yellow again.

 

[red_flanders]

This seems pretty weird—who doesn’t notice (even among us lowly recreational cyclists) when there’s a big change in their position setup—and by centimeters?! Not everyone is obsessive as Mercx but I think most of us would notice a a 1-2 centimeter change in saddle height, even if we’ve been off the bike over a long winter.
But I guess we can just file this away with “getting the hard mikes in” and the “numbers are looking good.”

Of course the answer is no one. Beyond that, it's not like every pro doesn't have a bunch of bikes from which a new team gets the initial setup of anyone's bike. Let alone the guy who you're paying millions. The very basic thing the mechanics and performance team would get from his previous setup were his bike measurements. It's preposterous...and...to lie about it...why? To what gain?

The worst part of Froome is the ease with which his continuous lies issue forth from his mouth or media accounts. They assume such an uncanny level of ignorance from his fans. He lies so casually, for no real reason. It's weird. I would think his fans would all have long walked away from the repeated assaults to their intelligence.

 

[stefank]

Of course the answer is no one. Beyond that, it's not like every pro doesn't have a bunch of bikes from which a new team gets the initial setup of anyone's bike. Let alone the guy who you're paying millions. The very basic thing the mechanics and performance team would get from his previous setup were his bike measurements. It's preposterous...and...to lie about it...why? To what gain?

The worst part of Froome is the ease with which his continuous lies issue forth from his mouth or media accounts. They assume such an uncanny level of ignorance from his fans. He lies so casually, for no real reason. It's weird. I would think his fans would all have long walked away from the repeated assaults to their intelligence.

I suspect that sort of gullibility is innate in a worrying proportion of the world's population. Look what some politicians manage to get their supporters to believe.

 

[awavey]

Of course the answer is no one. Beyond that, it's not like every pro doesn't have a bunch of bikes from which a new team gets the initial setup of anyone's bike. Let alone the guy who you're paying millions. The very basic thing the mechanics and performance team would get from his previous setup were his bike measurements.

But that's how we assume pro level top tier sport operates right, marginal gains, focus on the very basic details to get right, everything measured to precision.

But thats not always the case and some teams operate in very dysfunctional ways to the point you wonder how they even turn up at races with the right equipment, let alone track all the setup details for a specific rider.

I've certainly seen enough bad bike fits in procycling teams, to know what Froome says is entirely plausible, whether it's actually the case who knows, but don't dismiss it out of hand just because it sounds daft, as there are far dafter things that go on in some of these "pro" teams.

 

[veganrob]

How do you know what a bad bike fit is without actually fitting them yourself? Especially for a professional.

 

[DaveJones2]

I'm flabbergasted by this most recent revelantion from Froome from every potential angle, for all the reasons alluded to so far.

Is not being able to tell a 2cm deviation in reach and saddle height a sackable offense for a professional cyclist? It certainly would be if I was running a team and paying someone a small fortune per year to ride their bike for a living!!

 

[ManicJack]

but he did notice it, through the back pain, through never feeling that comfortable on the bike,

I think people dont realise the pro teams really dont do proper bike fit checks as youd think they should, even at Ineos, it was left to the rider to sort themselves beyond a cursory setup, and theres plenty of anecdotes from TeamGB of riders in absolutely agony riding their bikes because they thought it was meant to be uncomfortable, and only after going to seek medical assistance for their pain got proper bike fits, which fixed their issues.

as for IPT, well read Dowsett's book if you want to understand how disorganised they are. It wouldnt surprise me if it eventually came out they got told Froomes measurements and just forget to set the bike up.

But that's how we assume pro level top tier sport operates right, marginal gains, focus on the very basic details to get right, everything measured to precision.

But thats not always the case and some teams operate in very dysfunctional ways to the point you wonder how they even turn up at races with the right equipment, let alone track all the setup details for a specific rider.

Agree. Here in Boulder we have a legendary physio/bike fitter named Andy Pruitt. It is amazing how many top level pro cyclists have come here to see him over the years to get bike fits at their own expense. I've heard all kinds of stories about complete lack of knowledge within teams. Even riders having to secretly adjust their bike setup every race because they knew what they were handed was not good for them.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So how is Chris going? Ready to break Vingo-Pog TdF hegemony next year? Adjusting the saddle height should do wonders...

 

[red_flanders]

But that's how we assume pro level top tier sport operates right, marginal gains, focus on the very basic details to get right, everything measured to precision.

But thats not always the case and some teams operate in very dysfunctional ways to the point you wonder how they even turn up at races with the right equipment, let alone track all the setup details for a specific rider.

I've certainly seen enough bad bike fits in procycling teams, to know what Froome says is entirely plausible, whether it's actually the case who knows, but don't dismiss it out of hand just because it sounds daft, as there are far dafter things that go on in some of these "pro" teams.

Give me a break. A pro team that can’t pull measurements off a rider’s current bike? A rider who doesn’t insure the fit is right from the get go?

Hey, swallow the drivel if you must, you’re certainly not the only one.

 

[red_flanders]

Agree. Here in Boulder we have a legendary physio/bike fitter named Andy Pruitt. It is amazing how many top level pro cyclists have come here to see him over the years to get bike fits at their own expense. I've heard all kinds of stories about complete lack of knowledge within teams. Even riders having to secretly adjust their bike setup every race because they knew what they were handed was not good for them.

But that’s not really the situation here is it? It’s not, “hey, I need an outside consult to get a better fit than what I’ve been getting from my team”, the claim here is “my bike used to fit great when I was crushing everyone in the peloton, and I just now realized after 3 years of punting around Europe that my current fit is totally different and causing me to perform at this horrible level. I never thought to take the measurements off my older, world-beating fit until now…”

If someone swallows that nonsense, well…

I mean it’s fabrication on the level of “I was really a great rider the whole time but I had this blood sucking worm inside me that was holding me back”. Just preposterous.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Give me a break. A pro team that can’t pull measurements off a rider’s current bike? A rider who doesn’t insure the fit is right from the get go?

Hey, swallow the drivel if you must, you’re certainly not the only one.

I would think since Froome had had such terrible injuries his mechanics would make triple sure the bike fit was all right and would be constantly monitoring it? I mean post-injury athletes have different needs from the healthy ones...

 

[AmRacer]

So 1 cm can be translated to 1 watt? 10 watts? 100?

 

[samhocking]

I'd imagine the amount of time off the bike recovering to walk again, then, I would assume he didn't begin riding again using his race position while still with a load of metal inside him, he might well have kind of stopped adjusting where he felt he was back to a race position he was familiar with. However, I'm not sure on the cockpit of the Factor, but I know for a fact when you measured off my Look 595 and transpose to my Specialzied Venge you're 30mm off when in the drops compared to the hoods and tops even though all measurements are correct. It's simply by how different each cockpit is. Even though the Top Tube is only 10mm different between frames, those two bikes are impossible to setup so your reach in the drops, hoods and tops match between bikes. The drops and hoods on the Specialzied are 30mm out whereas the tops are the same. Even KOP is quite different even though measurements translated.

 

[rallybanana]

So how is Chris going? Ready to break Vingo-Pog TdF hegemony next year? Adjusting the saddle height should do wonders...

He's out testing his new saddle height as we speak...

 

[ManicJack]

But that’s not really the situation here is it? It’s not, “hey, I need an outside consult to get a better fit than what I’ve been getting from my team”, the claim here is “my bike used to fit great when I was crushing everyone in the peloton, and I just now realized after 3 years of punting around Europe that my current fit is totally different and causing me to perform at this horrible level. I never thought to take the measurements off my older, world-beating fit until now…”

If someone swallows that nonsense, well…

I'm not trying to defend Froome but nagging injuries can definitely affect choice of bike setup. Comfort doesn't necessarily translate to effectiveness. In this case I still think he is full of crap.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm not trying to defend Froome but nagging injuries can definitely affect choice of bike setup. Comfort doesn't necessarily translate to effectiveness. In this case I still think he is full of crap.

No one could argue that. But Froome’s claim is…

the 38-year-old claims he noticed “very big discrepancies” between his positioning on his Team Sky era Pinarello and his current Factor set-up, which he believes were the source of the lower back pain he’d experience during longer races.

The idea that he didn’t start with his old setup and that he didn’t notice there were “very big discrepancies” between that and his new setup for 3 years…if anyone is buying that, well…I’d rather not speculate as to why.

I mean…imagine you’re one of his mechanics reading this drivel. Froome just told the entire world that both he and you are totally incompetent. They must think he’s just a total clown…which of course he is.

 

[red_flanders]

I'd imagine the amount of time off the bike recovering to walk again, then, I would assume he didn't begin riding again using his race position while still with a load of metal inside him, he might well have kind of stopped adjusting where he felt he was back to a race position he was familiar with. However, I'm not sure on the cockpit of the Factor, but I know for a fact when you measured off my Look 595 and transpose to my Specialzied Venge you're 30mm off when in the drops compared to the hoods and tops even though all measurements are correct. It's simply by how different each cockpit is. Even though the Top Tube is only 10mm different between frames, those two bikes are impossible to setup so your reach in the drops, hoods and tops match between bikes. The drops and hoods on the Specialzied are 30mm out whereas the tops are the same. Even KOP is quite different even though measurements translated.

Uh huh. This defense doesn't address the claim.

The claim is pointedly NOT that he couldn't, after endless tweaking by some of the top mechanics in the world, and with any gear he needed available to him, match the fit of his Pinarello from Sky with the Factor. Not the claim. Nope. That would be comical as well, but it's not the claim.

The claim is, he recently "noticed some very big discrepancies" between his old bike and his new one. The implication is that now it's fixed. He found the problem and addressed it. If you buy that he didn't "notice some very big discrepancies" for 3 years, well...you've either never ridden a road bike for long distances, you're deeply gullible, you're not good at reading comprehension, or for some reason you are motivated to believe Froome and ignore logic.

The idea that mechanics on a professional team would not have an in-depth conversation with a brand new rider, the team's most public signing, about fit on a new bike, and start with the old bike, is quite simply delusional.

Never mind the further implication of his complaints, that somehow these discrepancies are a significant part of what's been wrong with his form?

It's quite a bit simpler than that. He's lying to you. He's trying to blame his lack of performance on...something...at the exact time when he's getting pressure from the press and ownership about his contract. He thinks this lie is good enough, and he knows some subset of delusional fans will lap it up just like they have every other bit of swill that's come out of his camp since fall of 2011.

If you believe him, you're the mark.

 

[Sciatic]

Agree. Here in Boulder we have a legendary physio/bike fitter named Andy Pruitt. It is amazing how many top level pro cyclists have come here to see him over the years to get bike fits at their own expense. I've heard all kinds of stories about complete lack of knowledge within teams. Even riders having to secretly adjust their bike setup every race because they knew what they were handed was not good for them.

I can buy that, but what’s much harder to believe is his explanation that he DID have a good fit/setup at Sky/Ineos and only NOW realized his bike fit these last several years is several centimeters different and bad, and thus has been holding back his performance level!

Ed. Sorry RedF, I responded to Manic’s earlier comment before reading farther down the thread to see yours—and see you already said what I commented on (and said it better )

 

[Sciatic]

He's out testing his new saddle height as we speak...

Awesome

 

[red_flanders]

Just because it's fun, here's Froome and IPT a year ago, releasing a video about how detailed and exhaustive their fit program is. Which of course would be normal and expected. Which of course would never miss "some very big discrepancies" where "we're not talking millimeters" in fit. Yet in this video, they're (as would be normal) agonizing over millimeters. A year ago. Curious, no?

 

[Unchained]

Agree. Here in Boulder we have a legendary physio/bike fitter named Andy Pruitt. It is amazing how many top level pro cyclists have come here to see him over the years to get bike fits at their own expense. I've heard all kinds of stories about complete lack of knowledge within teams. Even riders having to secretly adjust their bike setup every race because they knew what they were handed was not good for them.

I have been fitted a couple of times and leg length is a constant issue. But I will say one thing for sure that pro riders often have bizarre personal preferences and quirks. Everything from ultra long stems, tiny child like handlebars, and some of the most unconventional seat and seatpost setups know to man. And a dramatic change has happened w crank length . just guessing but when Froome was in form and going well, 175,172.5 were pretty common for tall people.. having know idea about Froome..I personally have had pain improvements from shorter crank arm length and I was very resistant because I had ideas about leverage that were let's say inaccurate.. Did I get night and day improvement? No.Seen a few pro bikes recently and the tip on the saddle is insane