Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Matteo.]

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

 

[damian13ster]

Re:

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

Possibly. But then why not just ride the tempo that is most suitable for him like he has done every time that he wasn't in top strength?

 

[Matteo.]

Re: Re:

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

Possibly. But then why not just ride the tempo that is most suitable for him like he has done every time that he wasn't in top strength?

I do not know, maybe he wanted to hold on (not making his yoyo move) and then try a big attack in the last 1-2 km. but then he found himself with little energy....

otherwise not explain how he raced only in '' defense ''. It is not in its nature

 

[boasson]

Re:

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

Todays Agenda was to follow Quinti and not losing any time to him. He knew, that he can't drop Quinti today, why he should attack? To be countered?

The "attacks" to close the Gap to Quintana were awesome. For me he was even with Quintana today. And that is a very good sign. In my opinion it was the last really decisive stage today. Aitana is a 5,9 percent climb with maximum 9 percent in the last 15 km. Stage 17 is similar to Pena Cabarga. There he can't lose more than 10 seconds. And tomorrow is a 14 km high-speed climb with 4,6 percent avg.

If he gains 90 seconds to Quinti in the TT he has won this race. Thats pretty simple.

 

[Sky train]

Chris has a winning combination and prefering to stick it.
Right now I can't describe that plan otherwise but pretty smart.
Don't forget there is Aitana summit finish where Froome can finish the business even if Quintana manage to stay in red after ITT.

 

[Matteo.]

Re: Re:

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

Todays Agenda was to follow Quinti and not losing any time to him. He knew, that he can't drop Quinti today, why he should attack? To be countered?

The "attacks" to close the Gap to Quintana were awesome. For me he was even with Quintana today. And that is a very good sign. In my opinion it was the last really decisive stage today. Aitana is a 5,9 percent climb with maximum 9 percent in the last 15 km. Stage 17 is similar to Pena Cabarga. There he can't lose more than 10 seconds. And tomorrow is a 14 km high-speed climb with 4,6 percent avg.

If he gains 90 seconds to Quinti in the TT he has won this race. Thats pretty simple.

as I said, it's a matter of features. It is not his nature to make those calculations. be careful: at every stage he is always the first to attack. He never races to control the others (except of course when it is first in the standings).
for Ime he saw that he had little energy (or Quintana was a bit stronger than him), so decided to ride a bit conservative in the final

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Re:

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

Possibly. But then why not just ride the tempo that is most suitable for him like he has done every time that he wasn't in top strength?

I do not know, maybe he wanted to hold on (not making his yoyo move) and then try a big attack in the last 1-2 km. but then he found himself with little energy....

otherwise not explain how he raced only in '' defense ''. It is not in its nature

Froome said after the stage last week where he blew himself up and lost valuable time that he will be more cautious With his effort when not in top form. I guess he's wary of doing the same.

Plus it's Quintana who needs to drop Froome with that long and flat TT coming next Friday. I'd be very surprised if 54 seconds is enough for Nairo.

 

[memyselfandI]

Re: Re:

Froome bluffed for shure. Deffo good legs but let the others do the twiching. Once was about to open but...we'll see

 

[sir fly]

Froome's surely more satisfied than Quintana after today.
And he's probably gaining confidence.
He can even start thinking how to make the penultimate stage irrelevant GC-wise.
But first to get safely through tomorrow's stage.

 

[boasson]

Re: Re:

I think a guy like him who does not attack on a day like today, it means that he had very little in the tank in the final 2kms.

Todays Agenda was to follow Quinti and not losing any time to him. He knew, that he can't drop Quinti today, why he should attack? To be countered?

The "attacks" to close the Gap to Quintana were awesome. For me he was even with Quintana today. And that is a very good sign. In my opinion it was the last really decisive stage today. Aitana is a 5,9 percent climb with maximum 9 percent in the last 15 km. Stage 17 is similar to Pena Cabarga. There he can't lose more than 10 seconds. And tomorrow is a 14 km high-speed climb with 4,6 percent avg.

If he gains 90 seconds to Quinti in the TT he has won this race. Thats pretty simple.

as I said, it's a matter of features. It is not his nature to make those calculations. be careful: at every stage he is always the first to attack. He never races to control the others (except of course when it is first in the standings).
for Ime he saw that he had little energy (or Quintana was a bit stronger than him), so decided to ride a bit conservative in the final

Yes, Froome always attacks as the first rider. But so far he hasn't faced a rider that is equal in the mountains. So he know he has to ride a perfect race to win it. If he attacks in the last km today and lost 10 secs to Quinti in the end it can be over for the overall. Today was the great day for Quintana in this race. And maybe the worst one for Froome when you added, that your team rode the whole day to control a very big and dangerous breakaway. At the end there were König up the road and all was under control. And if you do not attack and shows, that you want to win this race in the TT its a kind of mindgame with quinti.

 

[RedheadDane]

Okay, this is completely silly, but just imagine if he won ahead of Quintana and Chaves; that would be the weirdest looking podium ever. He's already quite a bit taller than both of them, then having him on a higher step than them.
Which, I know, has already happened for Quintana thrice.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Froome is heavier than most of his GC competition which means his FTP is higher than Quintana, Valverde. He might have his threshold in excess of 50 watts over Quintana. In such a flat TT, its a huge advantage. Dont think anybody except Konig to challenge him.
If he fades then its a different story.
If we believe what he says and that he is riding himself into the race, he aint fading.
Are there any TT guys in the field?

If it would only be a matter of heavier = higher FTP, König wouldn't be able to beat Froome as he's 62kg (just like Valverde and Contador by the way)

Exactly. The weight argument is absolute nonsense. 22 years ago, Rominger smashed Indurain's hour record, despite being 15kg lighter. Way more factors go into TTing than just weight.

We'll see how much nonsense it is when we get to it mate.
I'm sure NOBODY with lesser than Froome's weight can beat him in the TT.
Nonsense or not, we'll know on Stage 19 when Froome puts 2 minutes into Quitana.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re:

Froome's surely more satisfied than Quintana after today.
And he's probably gaining confidence.
He can even start thinking how to make the penultimate stage irrelevant GC-wise.
But first to get safely through tomorrow's stage.

That will be possible only if he has a +70 seconds gap on Quintana after the ITT.
And frankly I don't see that happening in normal conditions.

 

[Amnes2015]

important step to help in his quest for the big goal

imo it doesn't matter how many wheels he sucks , for this double is worth it. he can resume putting 1 minute in everybody on first MTF next year

 

[boasson]

Re: Re:

Froome is heavier than most of his GC competition which means his FTP is higher than Quintana, Valverde. He might have his threshold in excess of 50 watts over Quintana. In such a flat TT, its a huge advantage. Dont think anybody except Konig to challenge him.
If he fades then its a different story.
If we believe what he says and that he is riding himself into the race, he aint fading.
Are there any TT guys in the field?

If it would only be a matter of heavier = higher FTP, König wouldn't be able to beat Froome as he's 62kg (just like Valverde and Contador by the way)

Exactly. The weight argument is absolute nonsense. 22 years ago, Rominger smashed Indurain's hour record, despite being 15kg lighter. Way more factors go into TTing than just weight.

We'll see how much nonsense it is when we get to it mate.
I'm sure NOBODY with lesser than Froome's weight can beat him in the TT.
Nonsense or not, we'll know on Stage 19 when Froome puts 2 minutes into Quitana.

Yes.

Froome will have 430 watts average for the 45 min TT at friday. (6,4W/kg)
Quintana will have 370 watts average for the 45 min TT at friday. (6,4W/kg)

This 50-60 watts results in exactly 2kph difference with pretty same aerodynamics. Equal with 2 minutes difference in 45 minutes stage length. (47kph avg for Quinti, 49kph for Froome --> 47 min for Quinti, 45 min for Froome.)

Maybe Quinti can get a few seconds because of better aerodynamics because of his small body compared to Froome. But to lose only one Minute to Froome he have to power 390 watts. That means 6,7-6,8 W/kg. Not in this world.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Froome is heavier than most of his GC competition which means his FTP is higher than Quintana, Valverde. He might have his threshold in excess of 50 watts over Quintana. In such a flat TT, its a huge advantage. Dont think anybody except Konig to challenge him.
If he fades then its a different story.
If we believe what he says and that he is riding himself into the race, he aint fading.
Are there any TT guys in the field?

If it would only be a matter of heavier = higher FTP, König wouldn't be able to beat Froome as he's 62kg (just like Valverde and Contador by the way)

Exactly. The weight argument is absolute nonsense. 22 years ago, Rominger smashed Indurain's hour record, despite being 15kg lighter. Way more factors go into TTing than just weight.

We'll see how much nonsense it is when we get to it mate.
I'm sure NOBODY with lesser than Froome's weight can beat him in the TT.
Nonsense or not, we'll know on Stage 19 when Froome puts 2 minutes into Quitana.

Yes.

Froome will have 430 watts average for the 45 min TT at friday. (6,4W/kg)
Quintana will have 370 watts average for the 45 min TT at friday. (6,4W/kg)

This 50-60 watts results in exactly 2kph difference with pretty same aerodynamics. Ecual with 2 minutes difference in 45 minutes stage length. (47kph avg for Quinti, 49kph for Froome --> 47 min for Quinti, 45 min for Froome.)

Maybe Quinti can get a few seconds because of better aerodynamics because of his small body compared to Froome. But to lose only one Minute to Froome he have to power 390 watts. That means 6,7-6,8/kg. Not in this world.

So how did 65kg Rominger smash 80kg Indurain's hour record? (Hint, Michele Ferrari wrote a superb article explaining how he did it).

There is way more that goes into TTing than absolute power. Indeed, during a GT in particular, there is a lot more that goes into than power + aeroodynamics.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Froome is heavier than most of his GC competition which means his FTP is higher than Quintana, Valverde. He might have his threshold in excess of 50 watts over Quintana. In such a flat TT, its a huge advantage. Dont think anybody except Konig to challenge him.
If he fades then its a different story.
If we believe what he says and that he is riding himself into the race, he aint fading.
Are there any TT guys in the field?

If it would only be a matter of heavier = higher FTP, König wouldn't be able to beat Froome as he's 62kg (just like Valverde and Contador by the way)

Exactly. The weight argument is absolute nonsense. 22 years ago, Rominger smashed Indurain's hour record, despite being 15kg lighter. Way more factors go into TTing than just weight.

We'll see how much nonsense it is when we get to it mate.
I'm sure NOBODY with lesser than Froome's weight can beat him in the TT.
Nonsense or not, we'll know on Stage 19 when Froome puts 2 minutes into Quitana.

Yes.

Froome will have 430 watts average for the 45 min TT at friday. (6,4W/kg)
Quintana will have 370 watts average for the 45 min TT at friday. (6,4W/kg)

This 50-60 watts results in exactly 2kph difference with pretty same aerodynamics. Equal with 2 minutes difference in 45 minutes stage length. (47kph avg for Quinti, 49kph for Froome --> 47 min for Quinti, 45 min for Froome.)

Maybe Quinti can get a few seconds because of better aerodynamics because of his small body compared to Froome. But to lose only one Minute to Froome he have to power 390 watts. That means 6,7-6,8 W/kg. Not in this world.

Thanks for this. Great post although I do believe Froomes TT position is pretty good.

 

[boasson]

Re: Re:

A lot of factors for Rominger. Better material, way better position, better location (temperature, air pressure etc), higher W/kg Power output at this single day (better preparation), better pacing..... He would have smashed Indurain at every single climb at that day too.

But its another situation. At this TT we know that Froomes and Quintis W/kg Power outputs are the same, as we saw today. We know that the materials are pretty the same. And the aerodynamics too. Froome with the better position but Quinti with the smaller body. So its pretty even. Its not a hilly parcours, no downhills, not very technical. So the power output is the most important thing.

Cancellara averaged exactly 440 watts (the datas were published) at the olympics (5,6W/kg). Dumo ca. 410 (5,8W/kg) and Froome 400 (5,9W/kg). The both latter estimated.

So as you can see, Cances W/kg were lower than Dumos and Froomes. But 30-40 watts more of power results in 1kph more speed. Enough to gain a minute on both. The lost time in the uphills he gained back in the downhills..

The TDF TT was exactly 37km. Froome was exactly 2 Minutes in front of Quinti. Yes, Quinti is a bit better now, but that TT was pretty hilly. So at the end of the day quinti will lose 90 seconds on a good day and 120 seconds on a bad day.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

A lot of factors for Rominger. Better material, way better position, better location (temperature, air pressure etc), higher W/kg Power output at this single day (better preparation), better pacing..... He would have smashed Indurain at every single climb at that day too.

But its another situation. At this TT we know that Froomes and Quintis W/kg Power outputs are the same, as we saw today. We know that the materials are pretty the same. And the aerodynamics too. Froome with the better position but Quinti with the smaller body. So its pretty even. Its not a hilly parcours, no downhills, not very technical. So the power output is the most important thing.

Cancellara averaged exactly 440 watts (the datas were published) at the olympics (5,6W/kg). Dumo ca. 410 (5,8W/kg) and Froome 400 (5,9W/kg). The both latter estimated.

So as you can see, Cances W/kg were lower than Dumos and Froomes. But 30-40 watts more of power results in 1kph more speed. Enough to gain a minute on both. The lost time in the uphills he gained back in the downhills..

The TDF TT was exactly 37km. Froome was exactly 2 Minutes in front of Quinti. Yes, Quinti is a bit better now, but that TT was pretty hilly. So at the end of the day quinti will lose 90 seconds on a good day and 120 seconds on a bad day.

I agree with most of that. The point I was responding to was simply that weight is just one factor, it's not the sole determining factor on time trial performance, as silvergrenade was implying.

Of course Froome will do well and should take time out of Quintana. But it's not just because he's heavier. Quintana will also take time out of a lot of heavier riders than him in the TT.

The Rominger-Indurain example is just an extreme one to show how, even between two exceptional time triallists, the much lighter rider can use other factors to win. Smaller riders have other advantages like blood returning to the heart quicker from the legs, less energy to accelerate out of bends, smaller (often significantly) frontal area. In his world hour record, Rominger put out 100 watts less than Indurain for the same speed. That's a huge difference, and shows how weight disadvantage can be overcome. Of course, on the road there's even more scope with factors like accelerations and bike handling more prominent.

 

[DBotero]

It looks like he really was at the limit yesterday as some good folks already suggested :lol:

https://twitter.com/chrisfroome/status/772147474597310464

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

A lot of factors for Rominger. Better material, way better position, better location (temperature, air pressure etc), higher W/kg Power output at this single day (better preparation), better pacing..... He would have smashed Indurain at every single climb at that day too.

But its another situation. At this TT we know that Froomes and Quintis W/kg Power outputs are the same, as we saw today. We know that the materials are pretty the same. And the aerodynamics too. Froome with the better position but Quinti with the smaller body. So its pretty even. Its not a hilly parcours, no downhills, not very technical. So the power output is the most important thing.

Cancellara averaged exactly 440 watts (the datas were published) at the olympics (5,6W/kg). Dumo ca. 410 (5,8W/kg) and Froome 400 (5,9W/kg). The both latter estimated.

So as you can see, Cances W/kg were lower than Dumos and Froomes. But 30-40 watts more of power results in 1kph more speed. Enough to gain a minute on both. The lost time in the uphills he gained back in the downhills..

The TDF TT was exactly 37km. Froome was exactly 2 Minutes in front of Quinti. Yes, Quinti is a bit better now, but that TT was pretty hilly. So at the end of the day quinti will lose 90 seconds on a good day and 120 seconds on a bad day.

I agree with most of that. The point I was responding to was simply that weight is just one factor, it's not the sole determining factor on time trial performance, as silvergrenade was implying.

Of course Froome will do well and should take time out of Quintana. But it's not just because he's heavier. Quintana will also take time out of a lot of heavier riders than him in the TT.

The Rominger-Indurain example is just an extreme one to show how, even between two exceptional time triallists, the much lighter rider can use other factors to win. Smaller riders have other advantages like blood returning to the heart quicker from the legs, less energy to accelerate out of bends, smaller (often significantly) frontal area. In his world hour record, Rominger put out 100 watts less than Indurain for the same speed. That's a huge difference, and shows how weight disadvantage can be overcome. Of course, on the road there's even more scope with factors like accelerations and bike handling more prominent.

What you imply defies any scientific logic. Putting 100 Watts lesser to get the same speed. Hilarious.
The only reasonable explanation might be the banking of the drome where he set the hour record. Even a 5% more incline would make a world of difference. Please put out a credible link if possible about that 100 Watts theory.

No one is denying that Quintana would beat people heavier than him. Thats because he's one of the 2 people with the highest W/Kg in the peloton.

One question: You think Banking on curves better would lead to Quintana equalling a 60 Watt deficit on a 37 Km course which would take around 50 minutes?

 

[roundabout]

It's probably not the original source

http://www.connachtcycling.com/#/world-hour-record-rominger/4532722121

4th paragraph from the bottom

 

[wwabbit]

Froome's not really fated to win the Vuelta, eh? Lol...
This will be the 3rd time he fails to win the Vuelta through no fault of his own despite being the strongest or one of the strongests.

 

[DBotero]

Re:

Froome's not really fated to win the Vuelta, eh? Lol...
This will be the 3rd time he fails to win the Vuelta through no fault of his own despite being the strongest or one of the strongests.

This time he's got himself to blame for letting Quintana go.Sky worked hard yesterday and the quality of their roster here is nothing special so no wonder they couldn't do much.Big surprise that Konig wasn't with him,though.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Froome's not really fated to win the Vuelta, eh? Lol...
This will be the 3rd time he fails to win the Vuelta through no fault of his own despite being the strongest or one of the strongests.

This time he's got himself to blame for letting Quintana go.Sky worked hard yesterday and the quality of their roster here is nothing special so no wonder they couldn't do much.Big surprise that Konig wasn't with him,though.

Yup, Froome just needed to be on Quintana's wheel and then it doesn't matter what happens to his team.