Chris Horner is torching knuckleheads and murdering everyone's name

[theyoungest]

Not at all! What diffence does it make? There could have been 100 Jumbo riders there, but only Kuss should not have been amongst them! Do you not get it? I conveniently fail to mention nothing.

I think you don't understand (although it's been explained to you multiple times) that THIS WAS THE PLAN. Quickstep didn't let Kuss in the break, Jumbo just made it happen. They're just a stronger team. Having Van Baarle, Tratnik, and Valter riding their a.sses off all day for him and then Kuss finishing it off.

What wasn't part of the plan is that afterwards one by one the rivals failed and the only remaining rivals were his own teammates.

 

[Extinction]

I think you don't understand (although it's been explained to you multiple times) that THIS WAS THE PLAN. Quickstep didn't let Kuss in the break, Jumbo just made it happen. They're just a stronger team. Having Van Baarle, Tratnik, and Valter riding their a.sses off all day for him and then Kuss finishing it off.

What wasn't part of the plan is that afterwards one by one the rivals failed and the only remaining rivals were his own teammates.

Hogwash! Yes it was Jumbo's plan to get Kuss in the brake, BUT not for him to take a margin that gave him this Vuelta. Try again. So you contradict yourself by claiming I'm a blockhead, while at the same time reaffirming exactly what I said. And I've explained it a thousand times!

 

[yaco]

Not at all! What diffence does it make? There could have been 100 Jumbo riders there, but only Kuss should not have been amongst them! Do you not get it? I conveniently fail to mention nothing.

Kuss was there because the team wanted him to be in the break - And they supported him with three riders

 

[Extinction]

Kuss was there because the team wanted him to be in the break - And they supported him with three riders

Master of the obvious! But that doesn't contradict my analysis. What you don't get, is that the Jumbo's intention was not for the break to give Kuss a winning margin. The fact that they allowed Rog and Vingo to race against him proves it was not in the plan. This is what I mean!

 

[saunaking]

Soudal's ultimate weakness was having a blabber mouth Evenepoel announce to the world that he wanted to give up the jersey that day. It's why the fight for the break was so ferocious and thus why it became so nemerous.

Yeah toatally!! I don't know what the hell Remco is thinking always blabbing about giving up the jersey and spelling out his team strategy for everybody to hear.
They should just live stream their meeting on the bus in the morning

 

[yaco]

Master of the obvious! But that doesn't contradict my analysis. What you don't get, is that the Jumbo's intention was not for the break to give Kuss a winning margin. The fact that they allowed Rog and Vingo to race against him proves it was not in the plan. This is what I mean!

And the plan failed for a variety of reasons and that is why we got the end result. At the end of the day if Kuss was in another team then he would have lost the race but PLANS do not always come to fruition - It's time to move on and accept the result.

 

[Extinction]

And the plan failed for a variety of reasons and that is why we got the end result. At the end of the day if Kuss was in another team then he would have lost the race but PLANS do not always come to fruition - It's time to move on and accept the result.

I accept it, but recognize that, under the circumstances of an out of the universe domination, with the internal fiction involved, the winner was decided at the table, not the forces on the battle field.

 

[saunaking]

I accept it, but recognize that, under the circumstances of an out of the universe domination, with the internal fiction involved, the winner was decided at the table, not the forces on the battle field.

Welcome to cycling.
This is the case in many races.
Roglic was decided at the dinner table to win the Giro. (edit, i put vuelta by mistake)
Who knows, with a different plan maybe Sepp could have won

 

[Extinction]

Welcome to cycling.
This is the case in many races.
Roglic was decided at the dinner table to win the Giro. (edit, i put vuelta by mistake)
Who knows, with a different plan maybe Sepp could have won

The point is that Sepp could not have won attacking from the leaders. His inability to drop his captains demonstrstes this, as well as losing in the TT. Everything else is politics and sentimentalism, which politics fuels upon. He gained too much time in a tactical break, which unwittingly thwarted the stronger riders in his team. Sure, it's cycling, but not beneficial for the sport and the event.

 

[FroomeWagon]

Master of the obvious! But that doesn't contradict my analysis. What you don't get, is that the Jumbo's intention was not for the break to give Kuss a winning margin. The fact that they allowed Rog and Vingo to race against him proves it was not in the plan. This is what I mean

Here is what Plugge said. Kind of sounds like to me that if Sepp got 20 minutes in a break away, he was A-OK as long as he was the best rider in the break (which he was.)

"[Picking one winner] is like choosing between your own children. We just wanted to win the Vuelta. With whom it made no difference," he added, before praising Jonas Vingegaard and Primož Roglič for putting their own red jersey ambitions aside. "It's great that two great people, based on their personal leadership, allowed him to do it.
"Though Kuss has, of course, earned it himself. Deserved is another bizarre word – in top sport, you don't 'deserve' anything, you go and get it yourself."

 

[Extinction]

Here is what Plugge said. Kind of sounds like to me that if Sepp got 20 minutes in a break away, he was A-OK as long as he was the best rider in the break (which he was.)

Right, picking from your children, but your riders aren't your kids. However, the intention to move Kuss ahead did not come with jeopardizing those for whom you invested in winning. Kuss was a decoy that turned unwittingly into a frontrunner. And then Plugge had to deal with the shitstorm for trying to shoot him down.

 

[Unchained]

Kuss in the breakaway of a quarter of the field was complete serendipity. Jumbo was feeling things out and Remco and other teams didn't see anything serious or threatening, after all the American has been a food and beverage service provider for his career.
Kuss never top of the mountain, but instead pulse and pace as needed and he has been allowed to drop off in almost every race and after almost all outstanding efforts to pace designated leaders, which still retain titles, even after the Kuss victory.
Nothing has changed,
there is no new lead singer or guitar player, Roglic and Jonas are not part of a pecking order shake up.
Horner is super fortunate to do almost exclusively post race color. It's often easy to see flawed thinking and moves after they have been made. Horner and others, American and European didn't see a diamond in the rough. Nobody saw Sepp Kuss as some chained stallion that only needed to be freed so he could soar to his rightful place on the podium.. As was said, hogwash.
Horner has an entertaining YouTube channel and is overly animated and has a limited audience because it's not translated to anything but his native English, so rest assured that harsh barbs tossed out by Horner against a French, Belgian, German or Spanish team go mostly unnoticed and unheard. Bike racing requires tactics but not tactical genius.
Small teams worldwide struggle for funding first everything is is a very very distant second.. Nothing, nobody is secure and Horner trashing tactics is mostly harmless and why? Because a predetermined perfect plan seldom exists and all in pro racing know of the dozens of day of variables that make perfect plans imperfect.. Stomach virus, diarrhea, crash, flat, bike just broken, weather, miscommunication, the list is endless. Might be a little much to describe what Horner is doing as torching and murder.
If I am wrong I am sure that CN,Velo,Pez, GCN, Lantern Rouge and the rest will be quick to post an article or video titled something like " when is it Sepp's turn? When will the American eagle be let out of the cage? When will Kuss be allowed to win that is obvious he can achieve.. "
I will wait for all the Kuss cheerleading that happened before the Vuelta. Not

 

[the delgados]

Right, picking from your children, but your riders aren't your kids. However, the intention to move Kuss ahead did not come with jeopardizing those for whom you invested in winning. Kuss was a decoy that turned unwittingly into a frontrunner. And then Plugge had to deal with the shitstorm for trying to shoot him down.

I agree that Kuss might very well have been gifted the win.
But in addition to Soudal, you might want to drop team Ineos into the mix in terms of shaping the Vuelta.
Recall that Landa did the majority of the work when Kuss was dropped by his teammates a couple km's from the summit of the stage where everyone went nuts and made claims that Kuss was betrayed by his teammates. Time was mostly brought back by Landa, yet Kuss got bonus seconds by coming in third place. Why did Landa tow Kuss to the line only to give away bonus seconds?

 

[Extinction]

I agree that Kuss might very well have been gifted the win.
But in addition to Soudal, you might want to drop team Ineos into the mix in terms of shaping the Vuelta.
Recall that Landa did the majority of the work when Kuss was dropped by his teammates a couple km's from the summit of the stage where everyone went nuts and made claims that Kuss was betrayed by his teammates. Time was mostly brought back by Landa, yet Kuss got bonus seconds by coming in third place. Why did Landa tow Kuss to the line only to give away bonus seconds?

Because Landa had to fight to move up on GC. It's as simple as that. Ineos, with G out of the picture, could only bet on Top Ganna for the sprints! Oh my God.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

Kuss got 3 minutes in the break, it's not like it was a Pereiro move. Normally, that should be fine for the other GC contenders vs even a top domestique. But Ayuso lost an additional minute to Kuss before the JVs dropped a few seconds the last 2 stages while in party mode. And the other GC riders were worse than Ayuso.

 

[the delgados]

Because Landa had to fight to move up on GC. It's as simple as that. Ineos, with G out of the picture, could only bet on Top Ganna for the sprints! Oh my God.

Ha! Sorry for the dumb questions.
I'll see myself out the door.

 

[perico]

The point is that Sepp could not have won attacking from the leaders. His inability to drop his captains demonstrstes this, as well as losing in the TT. Everything else is politics and sentimentalism, which politics fuels upon. He gained too much time in a tactical break, which unwittingly thwarted the stronger riders in his team. Sure, it's cycling, but not beneficial for the sport and the event.

He never tried to drop his leaders. You could turn it around and say if you look at the gap he pulled back on Vingegaard on the Tourmalet you could say that he could’ve dropped just about anyone that day. Nobody could’ve followed his acceleration on that climb except Pogacar. It was that impressive.

I don’t want to be the one that has to be Kuss’s defender all the time because I am pretty agnostic on him as a rider (I like the boring constantly underperforming Mas and also Pogacar because his climbing style and aggression remind me of Bertie), but some of the takes here are so one sided against the guy.

I personally think Kuss really had no idea what he was supposed to do. He was too afraid to attack his own designated leaders. I don’t think he would’ve gotten away again just because he wasn’t in as good of form as the other two. I’d like to see Jonas or Primoz ride 3 GTs and skip altitude training before the race as Kuss did.

The point is that Kuss is hardly another Oscar Pereiro who didn’t have the talent or potential to win a GT. He benefitted from a break, but the other two had the opportunity to finish him off on the Angliru but while putting minutes into the other top rivals, they only put around 20 seconds into Kuss… and this is a guy who absolutely didn’t target GC or trained to contend.

 

[Extinction]

He never tried to drop his leaders. You could turn it around and say if you look at the gap he pulled back on Vingegaard on the Tourmalet you could say that he could’ve dropped just about anyone that day. Nobody could’ve followed his acceleration on that climb except Pogacar. It was that impressive.

I don’t want to be the one that has to be Kuss’s defender all the time because I am pretty agnostic on him as a rider (I like the boring constantly underperforming Mas and also Pogacar because his climbing style and aggression remind me of Bertie), but some of the takes here are so one sided against the guy.

I personally think Kuss really had no idea what he was supposed to do. He was too afraid to attack his own designated leaders. I don’t think he would’ve gotten away again just because he wasn’t in as good of form as the other two. I’d like to see Jonas or Primoz ride 3 GTs and skip altitude training before the race as Kuss did.

The point is that Kuss is hardly another Oscar Pereiro who didn’t have the talent or potential to win a GT. He benefitted from a break, but the other two had the opportunity to finish him off on the Angliru but while putting minutes into the other top rivals, they only put around 20 seconds into Kuss… and this is a guy who absolutely didn’t target GC or trained to contend.

How Kuss rode three GTs and was strongest in the third is a magical mystery. He cut the gap down to 30 secs on the Tourmalet, coughing up his soul, but I don't think he could have dropped Vingegaard like Pogacar on Cauterets at the Tour; while he saved his race with an unexpectedly strong Landa on Angrilu. He lost less time than people anticipated in the TT. He didn't train to win this Vuelta it is said, but oddly enough Roglic suggested Sepp could be a third ace in the Jumbo deck before the start. And so it was. To me this indicates that totally unprepared he was not.

At one point on the Angrilu, however, the gap showed Kuss was losing his bid to retain red, only for the time difference to suddenly drop. Was this do to an initially reported inaccuracy or that Roglic was ordered to slow down to save Kuss's lead? I now tend to think the latter, although at the time thought Roglic couldn't go any faster, but we shall never know. What we do know is that Vingegaard and Roglic afterward were told they could no longer race for their own chance, even though Jumbo-Visma had all but secured 1-2-3 on GC, which is insane, and why I begrudge their decision (as did apparently Roglic at the time). Since, like you, not being invested in any particular result, I only wanted to see a race till the end.

So now I guess the big question is whether or not Kuss can target GC in another GT, going in with the weight of leadership on his shoulders from the start and succeed? I doubt it, however, your provocative analysis makes me think I've perhaps underestimated him and that he may not have been as lucky a winner as I have thought. Still we don't know what Jonas was or was not capable of on the Angrilu, as he just followed Primoz's wheel. It's possible he could have attacked and taken over the lead. Normally he gets stronger deep into the race, so who knows? That we don't know, however, is another unfortunate circumstance for this Vuelta and Jumbo being too dominant for it's own good and that of cycling, as I have said.

 

[Extinction]

Ha! Sorry for the dumb questions.
I'll see myself out the door.

No need, and I was merely giving a blunt response to your inquiry.

 

[proffate]

No, Soudal made a huge mistake. Kuss would not have been a GC threat, if the break wasn't large enough that Soudal could not prevent it from cruising Sepp so far ahead. At the same time Roglic and Vingegaard would never have allowed their teammate into that break, had they known it would gift him a Vuelta. Hence, the two points I made were completely valid. [bla bla bla bla]

Too much text, make points faster or you don't have a point. And you clearly don't, because somehow you're still clinging to the idea that Quickstep was supposed to know that Kuss can't be allowed in the break but Rog/Ving (who, by the way, are not calling the shots) couldn't possibly have known.

 

[Extinction]

Too much text, make points faster or you don't have a point. And you clearly don't, because somehow you're still clinging to the idea that Quickstep was supposed to know that Kuss can't be allowed in the break but Rog/Ving (who, by the way, are not calling the shots) couldn't possibly have known.

Someone that starts off by telling me how much to write or I don't have a point, immediately loses my consideration. I'll write as damn much as I well please. You don't like it, don't read it.

At any rate, you clearly can't read races, which evidently was Soudal's problem too. As letting 40+ strong break go with Kuss in it, while actually having riders present, was a hugely stupid mistake. Everyone was asking right after the stage, "Where do you take back 3 minutes on Kuss"? The short TT? Nope. The mountains? 3 minutes? Third GT, so he might lose big time at some point. Nope. Remco wasn't very intelligent to make it frontpage news beforehand that he wanted to give the jersey away, they said. Remco made a big mistake. Soudal dropped the ball, etc., etc. And then Remco exploded, all but leaving Jumbo with no competition except amongst their own riders. Oh the irony of it now for Ving and Rog, who became the unwitting catalysts of their own demise!

Since Jumbo planned for Kuss to be in the break to discommode Remco, which now proved to have been totally unnecessary. It was the plan, to which they, Rog and Ving, agreed, just not for Sepp to gain so much time as to upset their Vuelta bids. Had they known that ahead of time, they never would never have consented. That they continued to ride for themselves, instead of Sepp right away, demonstrates the upsetting move caused huge internal problems, which only got resolved after a social media shitstorm. Talk about calling the shots! Rog and Ving were calling them, until external circumstances exacted the necessary pressure to bear to force team management to order them not to attack Kuss. Roglic was unhappy with this at the time, while Vingegaard seemed just to want things not to totally break down within the team's internal rapport, doubtless to retain Kuss's services at the Tour next year.

Consequently, nobody saw the perfect storm, neither Soudal nor Jumbo, that each helped generate. As such, you have no idea what you are talking about. 🤣

 

[kn0s]

Imagine if the teams did the tactics like Horner thinks they should. I would get so much sleep on the "Chesterfield".

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Imagine if the teams did the tactics like Horner thinks they should. I would get so much sleep on the "Chesterfield".

As I've written before in other threads, it is to be expected with his pro cycling upbringing under absolute dictatorship and zero outbursts if you have a leader, regardless of the fact that he is not in the leader's jersey. After all, that has always been his mantra.

That said, I've really enjoyed many of his uploads over the years. Extremely stimulating, especially when he gets it right and points out where other English-based cycling media/commentators snort or miss completely.

The part about his personality that I don't like though is when he is a bit too confident and quickly 'shuts down' a discussion instead of a humble attitude and leaves questions open for debate. Here he tends to quickly shut down and turn everyone else, riders as well as bike commentators, into knuckleheads.

I have been able to live with that just fine. Here too, where there is an unprecedented situation with 3 leaders and where each leader is stronger than the rest of the competition. Where he strangely sticks to 'a single leader' everyone else has to lick up and where it happens to be a fellow countryman who gets to the table first. Not that I think the latter is that relevant, more that the bizarre situation during the Vuelta deviates so much from his mantra that he can't just take 3 steps back and reassess. But then again, that could be part of his personality.

Overall, this experience has now not made me pull away from the channel. Just like I also follow LR, The Move and others, although they also have some misses, where they sometimes go off on a tangent (LR, however, clearly the most humble with constant reassessments and Benji to 'reset' when he's not just chatting ).
The only media I'm now absolutely sure I don't want to follow is the GCN UK post race panel, and especially Adam Blythe. He is the combination of the worst of all the others combined according to my immediate experience, when I became curious about the criticism of him and have now seen 10 post race analyzes during the Vuelta, but these are absolutely the last ones for my part.

I can live with Horner's misses much better, since after all he also has both a motivating sharpness and full hits - occasionally at least (no really, I don't think its that bad in general).

 

[kn0s]

As I've written before in other threads, it is to be expected with his pro cycling upbringing under absolute dictatorship and zero outbursts if you have a leader, regardless of the fact that he is not in the leader's jersey. After all, that has always been his mantra.

That said, I've really enjoyed many of his uploads over the years. Extremely stimulating, especially when he gets it right and points out where other English-based cycling media/commentators snort or miss completely.

The part about his personality that I don't like though is when he is a bit too confident and quickly 'shuts down' a discussion instead of a humble attitude and leaves questions open for debate. Here he tends to quickly shut down and turn everyone else, riders as well as bike commentators, into knuckleheads.

I have been able to live with that just fine. Here too, where there is an unprecedented situation with 3 leaders and where each leader is stronger than the rest of the competition. Where he strangely sticks to 'a single leader' everyone else has to lick up and where it happens to be a fellow countryman who gets to the table first. Not that I think the latter is that relevant, more that the bizarre situation during the Vuelta deviates so much from his mantra that he can't just take 3 steps back and reassess. But then again, that could be part of his personality.

Overall, this experience has now not made me pull away from the channel. Just like I also follow LR, The Move and others, although they also have some misses, where they sometimes go off on a tangent (LR, however, clearly the most humble with constant reassessments and Benji to 'reset' when he's not just chatting ).
The only media I'm now absolutely sure I don't want to follow is the GCN UK post race panel, and especially Adam Blythe. He is the combination of the worst of all the others combined according to my immediate experience, when I became curious about the criticism of him and have now seen 10 post race analyzes during the Vuelta, but these are absolutely the last ones for my part.

I can live with Horner's misses much better, since after all he also has both a motivating sharpness and full hits - occasionally at least (no really, I don't think its that bad in general).

I watch/hear 4-5 different outlets plus here. Mostly to not stay in my own echo chamber. Agree, GCN is some of the worst I have seen.

I can also live with Horner, I get the ultra conservative take there. His top rider list is also always good for a laugh, changes like the wind, it does.

 

[the delgados]

Chris Horner is the Teflon Don of cycling.
One of many things I like about the guy is he never seemed worried about getting popped for nefarious deeds, despite the fact he never enjoyed the same power and influence of, say, a person who can't be mentioned in this forum. Let's just say his shenanigans took more than one ball.
Also, he is the only person in the world who can make a bike race seem exciting with 150 km's to go. If you follow closely, his narratives jump all over the place, but he still manages to keep the narrative in his head right until the end.
I admire his enthusiasm and willful silliness. I find it infectious.