Chris Hoy

[SeriousSam]

Re:

If, as an athlete you are better than your competitors, you normally beat them. If they take drugs to improve their performance, but are still not as good as you, then you still beat them.

Correct. But the thing is, we don't always observe whether they're doping. Instead, we have to make inferences about their doping status based on what we do observe. This fact, and that doping enhances performance, suffices to turn performing well into evidence of doping, everything else equal. The strength of the evidence depends on the average prevalence of doping in that sport, and on the doping status of those that are getting beat.

Bolt is an instructive example here. If we knew everyone he beats is very clean, he needs to be a mere outlier to go faster still being clean. If, on the other hand, everyone who has ever been remotely close to him has doped, he needs to be a truly ludicrous outlier if clean. Put differently, he is less likely to be clean. Put differently still, running as quick as he does is evidence of doping. Strong evidence, in fact.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

If, as an athlete you are better than your competitors, you normally beat them. If they take drugs to improve their performance, but are still not as good as you, then you still beat them.

Correct. But the thing is, we don't always observe whether they're doping. Instead, we have to make inferences about their doping status based on what we do observe. This fact, and that doping enhances performance, suffices to turn performing well into evidence of doping, everything else equal. The strength of the evidence depends on the average prevalence of doping in that sport, and on the doping status of those that are getting beat.

Bolt is an instructive example here. If we knew everyone he beats is very clean, he needs to be a mere outlier to go faster still being clean. If, on the other hand, everyone who has ever been remotely close to him has doped, he needs to be a truly ludicrous outlier if clean. Put differently, he is less likely to be clean. Put differently still, running as quick as he does is evidence of doping. Strong evidence, in fact.

indeed

strong evidence.

in cycling parlance and clinic idiom #NOTNORMAL

 

[Farcanal]

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

 

[The Carrot]

Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

Yes she is cheating. How? PEDs! What PEDs? Well a combination of many i guess, but we wont find out for a few years when newer PEDs come on stream and they then test for the old ones not in use anymore by the nations of UCI's favourites....

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

Yes she is cheating. How? PEDs! What PEDs? Well a combination of many i guess, but we wont find out for a few years when newer PEDs come on stream and they then test for the old ones not in use anymore by the nations of UCI's favourites....

Just a thought here. Most asthmatics are on inhaled Beta 2 agonists (albuterol, salbutamol, etc.). But some go the extra step with inhaled corticosteroids. I wonder if this a plausible way to raise ones cortisol levels and get added PED benefit under the rubric of "asthma". If one has a TUE for inhaled agents that might cover you for abnormally high cortisol levels.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

Yes she is cheating. How? PEDs! What PEDs? Well a combination of many i guess, but we wont find out for a few years when newer PEDs come on stream and they then test for the old ones not in use anymore by the nations of UCI's favourites....

Just a thought here. Most asthmatics are on inhaled Beta 2 agonists (albuterol, salbutamol, etc.). But some go the extra step with inhaled corticosteroids. I wonder if this a plausible way to raise ones cortisol levels and get added PED benefit under the rubric of "asthma". If one has a TUE for inhaled agents that might cover you for abnormally high cortisol levels.

So, let me get this right so that I fully understand, she is using either a) asthma drugs b) drugs that her favoured home nation are allowed to use or c) something that hasn't been discovered yet.

So, without any more evidence than that she is winning, she is British and she has asthma it is clear that she is cheating?

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'





http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

This means TUEs.

Track cycling's a curious case, the depth of competitive opposition is not that great, especially amongst the women (not their fault). Go to a World cup and look at the pens in the track centre, outside of GB, Australia and one or two others you quickly get to one rider per nation with not even a mechanic on hand. If you're not in one of those aforementioned nations you can't compete, regardless of talent. I know of track World champions who are on expenses only. GB pay their riders (not much) but it's still 100s of % more than most and add to that they are often competing against nations who don't even have velodromes. Have a look, for example, at the all conquering GB mens pursuit squad, average British road pros all of them (including Wiggins ), why do they win? very few nations give a monkey's about track cycling and those that do, can't afford to compete. Someone at GB worked this out and now the UK has 6 250m velodromes on top of the East German model of recruiting from schools. This dominance will only get greater. So could someone compete clean from a well funded team? possibly.

However, while the above makes sense it is, essentially, the team GB narrative which makes me suspicious immediately and this is cycling, I don't believe that the velodrome operates in some sort or rarefied moral atmosphere. Track cycling's getting bigger, which means more money, more incentive to win etc and then look at some of the 'characters' involved. Add to this that track cyclists have been busted, and seeing that we know that the drugs work rather well...

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

Yes she is cheating. How? PEDs! What PEDs? Well a combination of many i guess, but we wont find out for a few years when newer PEDs come on stream and they then test for the old ones not in use anymore by the nations of UCI's favourites....

Just a thought here. Most asthmatics are on inhaled Beta 2 agonists (albuterol, salbutamol, etc.). But some go the extra step with inhaled corticosteroids. I wonder if this a plausible way to raise ones cortisol levels and get added PED benefit under the rubric of "asthma". If one has a TUE for inhaled agents that might cover you for abnormally high cortisol levels.

So, let me get this right so that I fully understand, she is using either a) asthma drugs b) drugs that her favoured home nation are allowed to use or c) something that hasn't been discovered yet.

So, without any more evidence than that she is winning, she is British and she has asthma it is clear that she is cheating?

The sport has gone long past the 'let's see the evidence before calling someone a doper'........

Also this is a forum where opinion is allowed, not a court where only evidence is accepted. To be at the top of ones sport generally involves doping. Time and time again this has proven to be the case. While it all looks lovely and they train so hard and sacrifice so much, but without PEDs they aint winning, because others are doing all the hard training, sacrifices and PEDS and are not winning.

 

[V3R1T4S]

Re: Re:

I know this is slightly off subject, but several in this thread have included Jason Kenny as a comparison to Hoy and his contemporaries and I was wondering what the assembled wisdom is concerning his partner, Laura Trott. A girl of incredibly slight stature, judging by the TV images, producing powerful performances which outstrip larger and seemingly more athletic riders, a double olympic gold medallist at only 20 years old, multiple world champion since (across a wide discipline omnium) and, still at only 23, has just taken 3 golds at the Euros against nations such as Netherlands, Poland, Russia, France etc etc.

Is she just a phenomenon? Anyone have an opinion?

'Asthma made her a winner'

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/381793/Laura-Trott-Asthma-made-me-a-winner

Okay, I've read that. What does that mean for you? Is she cheating? and how?

Yes she is cheating. How? PEDs! What PEDs? Well a combination of many i guess, but we wont find out for a few years when newer PEDs come on stream and they then test for the old ones not in use anymore by the nations of UCI's favourites....

Just a thought here. Most asthmatics are on inhaled Beta 2 agonists (albuterol, salbutamol, etc.). But some go the extra step with inhaled corticosteroids. I wonder if this a plausible way to raise ones cortisol levels and get added PED benefit under the rubric of "asthma". If one has a TUE for inhaled agents that might cover you for abnormally high cortisol levels.

Uhhh... this has precisely been perhaps the most abused TUE loophole of all time. Whenever you hear an athlete complaining about it being unfair they can't treat their "asthma" and race (e.g., Horner and the Vuelta, or Horner being denied a TUE in the US this year, or Bennett and the Giro, etc.) it is not for a Beta-2 agonist inhaler, but for a corticosteroid inhaler precisely to mask corticosteroid abuse. The amazing thing about Froome's Romandie emergency TUE is that it allowed him to take a pretty hefty dose in tablet form, probably no different than his out-of-competition training pick-me-up/weight-loss regime!

To the point: it's not banned out-of-competition but is banned in-competition but there is a glow time, so corticosteroid inahler TUEs allow an easy way to eliminate worries about this glow time. Getting a small, continuous, systemic delivery of corticos via the lungs during competition is an added benefit.

This is just one thing in a litany of "tells" that delineate what a joke this sport is once you know what to look for.

 

[mrhender]

Okay, it seems evident that I should have asked Oldcrank in private, because things are getting really off topic in here.

And for that I take the blame.

I know that getting your posts deleted is never nice, but nevertheless I don't see this discussion going anywhere.

To those with complaints about a specific poster I urge you to report them, and give valid reason as to why.

Also to those who argue favoritism, I urge you to argue your case in the moderators thread, or pm a mod/admin of your liking.

Best regards
mrhender

 

[The Carrot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAae68_OMmc

I give you 'The Hoybot'!

Where do they get their inspiration from?

No references to muscular Christianity though.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAae68_OMmc

I give you 'The Hoybot'!

Where do they get their inspiration from?

No references to muscular Christianity though.

Ho, ho, but let's be serious for a brief moment! One should hardly be surprised it's not mentioned. The term may have been current in Britain at one time (especially the Victorian era) but I don't think it means anything to most Brits. I can't speak for everyone of course, but I could almost guarantee that at least 90% of people have never heard of it. Perhaps it is not surprising in a land where Christianity itself has only limited appeal, despite its profound historical and cultural significance.

 

[samhocking]

Keep hoping, British cycling's renaissance has already outlasted any riders success achieved throughout careers ended by either Festina, Oil for Drugs, Puerto or USADA. Either they don't dope, dope, but can't be detected or they somehow have managed to pay everyone off for the last 20 years.
The real question should perhaps be, why is only Britain the only cycling nation able to accomplish such scandal-free success whatever the reason for it, not who is doping or not?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Keep hoping, British cycling's renaissance has already outlasted any riders success achieved throughout careers ended by either Festina, Oil for Drugs, Puerto or USADA. Either they don't dope, dope, but can't be detected or they somehow have managed to pay everyone off for the last 20 years.
The real question should perhaps be, why is only Britain the only cycling nation able to accomplish such scandal-free success whatever the reason for it, not who is doping or not?

it's not a bad question, but the premise that you have to buy everyone off is incorrect.
Lance didn't buy everyone off. Indurain didn't buy everyone off. Sastre didn't buy everyone off. Pereiro didn't. Cadel didn't. Etc. Some are just in the right place at the right time surrounded by the right people, etc.

But yes, I reckon you do have to have some form of control/power over the antidoping bodies, if only in an indirect financial kind of way. People will normally not bite the hand that feeds (nor hands that feed indirectly). As for Sky the ties with UCI are multiple and clear to see for everybody willing to take off the blinders.
So all in all no real surprises here.

The idea that british cycling history is untainted is similarly flawed, but I'll leave that one to others.

 

[samhocking]

If any team is capable of doping and winning the biggest races in track and road cycling without getting caught or later exposed as doping, you would think it would be the teams and nations with the most experience and wins trying to do just that over the last 100 years, yet no, it's only the new team who've worked it out and they did it in under 10 years on the track after 70 years of not a single medal and then within 5 years on the road. I don't know why any team would want to carry on, clearly they are incapable of working out how to dope riders and not get caught even after 100 years trying lol!

 

[bobbins]

I've heard from good sources that the track team is clean, inc Chris Hoy. The same sources have gone in to detail about Team Sky not being so clean so they have no reason not to be telling the truth.

Obviously they can't monitor their athletes 24/7 so if an individual were to do their own thing then it is possible that some riders are dodgy but there is no team wide program happening.

It's worth noting that UKADA turned up just before Hoy went to the London games and interrupted a training session to dope test him, followed him in a car to monitor him and tested in a surprise OOC test. If the anti doping were in their pocket I can't see that happening.

 

[samhocking]

So Wiggins, Cavendish, Thomas, Swift, Kennaugh etc are dirty dopers when they cross the channel and put their Sky kit on, but magically clean up their blood on the ferry when they get to Manchester Velodrome lol?

 

[bobbins]

Re:

So Wiggins, Cavendish, Thomas, Swift, Kennaugh etc are dirty dopers when they cross the channel and put their Sky kit on, but magically clean up their blood on the ferry when they get to Manchester Velodrome lol?

That isn't what I said.

 

[samhocking]

I know, i'm just saying, a team is only as clean as its riders. A Sky rider on the road is often a Team GB under British Cycling at the same time in the same season, in Wiggins case almost the same month after Tour de France victories.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I've heard from good sources that the track team is clean, inc Chris Hoy. The same sources have gone in to detail about Team Sky not being so clean so they have no reason not to be telling the truth.

Obviously they can't monitor their athletes 24/7 so if an individual were to do their own thing then it is possible that some riders are dodgy but there is no team wide program happening.

It's worth noting that UKADA turned up just before Hoy went to the London games and interrupted a training session to dope test him, followed him in a car to monitor him and tested in a surprise OOC test. If the anti doping were in their pocket I can't see that happening.

we've been here before, but again, i don;t no reason whatsoever to think the track team is clean when Sky are not.
It's the exact same people involved in the build up.
The likes of Keen, Sutton, Salzwedel, Brailsford, Slater, Wiggins, Hayles and Hoybot. Not difficult to do the math there especially seeing how they've been crushing the competition for years on end. On bread and water? Doubtful.
And Hayles we 'know' he doped. When he got exposed the whole trackteam stood in line to defend him. How does that add up if the others were clean?

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

I've heard from good sources that the track team is clean, inc Chris Hoy. The same sources have gone in to detail about Team Sky not being so clean so they have no reason not to be telling the truth.

Obviously they can't monitor their athletes 24/7 so if an individual were to do their own thing then it is possible that some riders are dodgy but there is no team wide program happening.

It's worth noting that UKADA turned up just before Hoy went to the London games and interrupted a training session to dope test him, followed him in a car to monitor him and tested in a surprise OOC test. If the anti doping were in their pocket I can't see that happening.

we've been here before, but again, there's no reason whatsoever to think the track team is clean when Sky are not.
It's the exact same people involved in the build up.
The likes of Keen, Sutton, Salzwedel, Brailsford, Slater, Wiggins, Hayles and Hoybot. Not difficult to do the math there especially seeing how they've been crushing the competition for years on end. On bread and water? Come on.
And Hayles we know he doped. When he got popped everybody stood in line to defend him. How does that add up if the others were clean?

People seem to think that there is a moral portal at the entrance to the velodrome, which road cycling skulduggery cannot pass through!

 

[The Carrot]

So what do we know about the track team?

Team Pursuiters training in Teide.
Smashing the bejesus out of everyone else, including dopers.
'Asthma made her a winner'.
Shane Sutton.
Being called out by the French (it's pretty rare for cyclists to call others out, omerta and all that).

Of course, not absolute proof of anything.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I've heard from good sources that the track team is clean, inc Chris Hoy. The same sources have gone in to detail about Team Sky not being so clean so they have no reason not to be telling the truth.

Obviously they can't monitor their athletes 24/7 so if an individual were to do their own thing then it is possible that some riders are dodgy but there is no team wide program happening.

It's worth noting that UKADA turned up just before Hoy went to the London games and interrupted a training session to dope test him, followed him in a car to monitor him and tested in a surprise OOC test. If the anti doping were in their pocket I can't see that happening.

we've been here before, but again, there's no reason whatsoever to think the track team is clean when Sky are not.
It's the exact same people involved in the build up.
The likes of Keen, Sutton, Salzwedel, Brailsford, Slater, Wiggins, Hayles and Hoybot. Not difficult to do the math there especially seeing how they've been crushing the competition for years on end. On bread and water? Come on.
And Hayles we know he doped. When he got popped everybody stood in line to defend him. How does that add up if the others were clean?

People seem to think that there is a moral portal at the entrance to the velodrome, which road cycling skulduggery cannot pass through!

Wiggins backing up Hayles:

Asked if he had any doubts about Hayles, Wiggins said: ‘Absolutely no doubts whatsover.’

He added: ‘People will jump to the worst-case scenario but Rob is one of the longest-serving guys on this programme and one of the cleanest guys around.’
http://metro.co.uk/2008/03/27/brits-back-banned-cyclist-hayles-52975/#ixzz3x2l7toLt

"One of the cleanest guys around", lmao.

Saliently, when Hayles got his 50+ reading, Brailsford did a 'Henao' (avant la lettre), asking for some sort of UCI-based scientific committee to 'scrutinize' the case.
One of the members of the committee was a certain Yorck Olaf Schumacher, at the time also part of the UCI biopassport committee. Indeed, the same Schumacher who later got caught up in the Freiburg (blood)doping affair.
http://www.zeit.de/2014/45/doping-sport-freiburg-klinikum-prozess/seite-4

Here's the press release on that Hayles committee, from 2008. It's revealing on many levels.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/may/07/cycling

Officials from British Cycling meet today to plan the next step in presenting a case to the International Cycling Union for a review of their haematocrit blood test. The move comes after the British cyclist Rob Hayles' exclusion from the track world championships in Manchester in March following an irregular blood test...
...
"We've got a body of evidence from the four weeks of blood testing we did on Rob Hayles after the anomaly in his haematocrit test," said Brailsford. "We're adding the final touches to the analysis but I think the information is very compelling and I have total confidence the UCI will give it the thought it warrants."
...
Brailsford has been encouraged by the international support for his case, with Olaf Schumacher, chief physician of the German Cycling Federation, agreeing to back British Cycling's proposals. Schumacher was named last week by the UCI as part of the nine-strong team of scientists appointed to monitor the governing body's new biological passport programme.

You can tell there that in 2008 UCI were already firmly on the "give GB their TdF Champ" bandwagon, helping to clear Hayles' name and, more importantly, helping GB/Sky develop a better internal testing system. Saugy-USPS all over again.

(McQuaid and Braislford cemented their plans in Bejing, I assume, but that's besides the point)