Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[repre]

Will he be given better legs at Visma?

Yes

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If the management is not aware of any bullying I am going to go on a limb and make a supposition that Uijtdebroeks himself never made a point out of it.

The logical case for bullying to cause the relationship with the team to break down beyond repair is management doing nothing to stop if the bullying once they were aware.

I see you have never been close to anyone having been bullied or having bullied. Last thing they do is run to teacher/mommy or it will only get worse.

Poor Cian! What has he survived and experienced... Nasty, mean WhatsApp bullying! Thank God he got out of all that alive and well.

And now seriously, what has world come to...

EQ 0

The problem here is that it's been reported that he was bullied, and then that he was excluded from this WhatsApp group where they made fun of him, and we're being asked to act like those two things are one and the same. But they're not. So when the reports claim that sources confirm that he was bullied, there's a very reasonable doubt about what that actually means in practice and about what those sources actually said. Did they confirm that he was bullied, in so many words, or merely that he wasn't liked? Did those sources actually confirm that they had a Make Fun of Cian WhatsApp group, or did they say some riders had their own group where the unpopular kid wasn't invited, and where every now and then someone vented about this guy nobody likes?

I guess we're all filling in the gaps alright, except for some people it's [Cian says he's bullied] > [Examples are given] > [Wait that's not bullying] > [LOL], while for others it's [Cian says he's bullied] > [Examples are given] > [Wait that's not bullying] > [There must be something else, no one would make such a serious claim otherwise] > [It was bad]

Thanks for this new information. I had not heard Uijtdebroeks claiming he was bullied. I had only heard of a Dutch journalist claiming he had multiple sources tell him this.

 

[Volderke]

To me mostly I feel disappointed in Cian for not facing the problem in what I see as a more conventional way.

I didn't know there was a conventional way how someone should cope with bullying.
And if there was one, are you suggesting that the conventional way is to accept it (as in: you are responsible and have to deal with the consequences, and it's "conventional" bullying occurs)?

In any way, backing out is a way of dealing with bullying. Not everybody accepts his fate and stays in the position that enables others to bully him. Leaving Bora is a very elegant way of solving the issue for Cian, as he can avoid the bullying, earn more money (not unimportant) and face his bullies on the road (which will hopefully make for interesting racing )

 

[Elos Anjos]

This also puts in perspective all those "losers" that had to cope with Armstrong bullying them. All they had to do is cry a bit more and complain about bicycle settings and voilá, no more Armstrong.

/s

It's a cultural change. Just for starters. The problem with bullying - and other I-based judgments - is that it solely grants the bullied the criteria to assess either it's happening or not. And so of course it's a slipperiy slope towards making up stories just to fit your real objectives...like a bigger sallary or a more supportive staff.

 

[Netserk]

EQ 0

Nasty to use autism as a derogatory assessment.

 

[Blanco]

EQ 0

Oh, welcome back. I didn't saw you posting for a while...
Although manner is the same so I doubt you will last last long time also.

 

[roundabout]

I see you have never been close to anyone having been bullied or having bullied. Last thing they do is run to teacher/mommy or it will only get worse.

Nonsense.

It's not a school or whatever you are hinting at, but work environment where people would rationally not want to be seen as troublemakers to hurt their future earnings, especially in cycling where riders/staff change jobs more often than in an average industry.

But keep believing that the supposed bullies would have doubled down on their bullying like some braindead teenagers if it makes you feel that the side of the argument that you have chosen is the right one.

 

[ManicJack]

Nasty to use autism as a derogatory assessment.

Are you accusing Blanco of being autistic, or sharing info that you shouldn't?

 

[Faserr]

An article in german from a good source:

Eine Geschichte mit vielen Verlierern – die Cian Uijtdebroeks Transfer-Story - cyclingmagazine

Cian Uijtdebroeks hat seinen Vertrag beim Team Bora-hansgrohe gekündigt, will zu Visma | Lease a Bike wechseln – eine komplexe Geschichte.

www.cyclingmagazine.de

Perhaps a browser translation is working for the english speaking readers. It seems like his helpers were angry after he critisised them in public. After that he was isolated a bit in the team (for examle rest day acitivities).
Bora tried to prepare him with recons and so on for the vuelta but this wasn't good enough for him.
He seems to be very demanding and isn't very thankful to his helpers. I don't now if this triggered bullying or if he was just isolated after that.
He could be a good fit for Visma-Lab, but I don't know if he will he happy with his status in the team. Nevertheless the team should have the resources to satisfy him.

 

[RedheadDane]

Are you accusing Blanco of being autistic, or sharing info that you shouldn't?

Well... "accusing" would imply it's something bad...

 

[Netserk]

Are you accusing Blanco of being autistic, or sharing info that you shouldn't?

Neither. Read the exchange again and look up the terms you are less familiar with.

 

[ManicJack]

Well... "accusing" would imply it's something bad...

You are very much correct. Certainly not my intention.

 

[ManicJack]

Neither. Read the exchange again and look up the terms you are less familiar with.

Got it. Just trying to bait Logic. Typical.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Nonsense.

It's not a school or whatever you are hinting at, but work environment where people would rationally not want to be seen as troublemakers to hurt their future earnings, especially in cycling where riders/staff change jobs more often than in an average industry.

But keep believing that the supposed bullies would have doubled down on their bullying like some braindead teenagers if it makes you feel that the side of the argument that you have chosen is the right one.

Nonsense indeed dear fellow.

First of all i have no idea whether the allegations of bullying are correct, neither did i chose any side of the argument in this case, i am simply allergic to bullies. My earliest memory in preschool (3 y.o) was punching an older kid a bloody nose because he and his friend were pushing around a smaller kid. But I have no idea if bullying is the reason for Uijtdebroeks to leave, or whether he made it up. Nor do i have inside info in this case or an idea who Zonneveld's sources are and how credible they are. All i commented on is your ridiculous nonsense regarding bullying and how it can (not) impact people, their stress level, their quality of life, or their mental wellbeing. Bullying can go far beyond the concept of what you and some others seem to have convinced yourselves.

If you were to go to your boss, he would reprimand the bullies... and then what? What do you think would happen after that? You think those bullies would all of a sudden become your best friends? You think the next time they will keep the door open for you? You think after that they would simply act as if nothing had happened? Even if they did (which they won't), the person having been bullied will FOREVER second guess the behaviour of the persons that had been bullying him. This does not go away. Ever. The first time on a training ride and you stop for a coffee, but you are a bit later to the table for whatever reason, and they chose a table where there is no seat for you left, you will wonder if they did it on purpose. Or they chose a table in the sun, when they know you don't like to sit in the sun. Or they will order a next round, the moment you went to the bathroom and you are left having to wait for the waitress to come by next time, and by the time you get your second coffee, they will have finished theirs and be getting up to leave. You clearly have no idea how microscopic bullying can become and how it can weigh on the mental wellbeing of the person who gets bullied. And good luck going to your boss to complain about the fact that they picked a table in the sun or ordered while you were on the toilet.

Oh, welcome back. I didn't saw you posting for a while...
Although manner is the same so I doubt you will last last long time also.

Thanks, but please don't tell me you are offended by my post, because that would be highly ironic coming from the guy who just stated: "Poor Cian! What has he survived and experienced... Nasty, mean WhatsApp bullying!"

And don't worry, i won't last long, because i have no intention of staying long. Just dropped by quickly to mock people who think they know what bullying means and how unaffected people who have been bullied are by it.

 

[theyoungest]

Nonsense.

It's not a school or whatever you are hinting at, but work environment where people would rationally not want to be seen as troublemakers to hurt their future earnings, especially in cycling where riders/staff change jobs more often than in an average industry.

But keep believing that the supposed bullies would have doubled down on their bullying like some braindead teenagers if it makes you feel that the side of the argument that you have chosen is the right one.

The argument that contracts in cycling are short-lived so you'd be unwise to bully is not very convincing. You could just as well argue the other way around: it's a dog eat dog world so you care less about your teammates and don't mind bullying as much, since next year you'll be on a different team anyway.

It's clear where you stand on the issue... I find this automatic tendency by you and most of this forum to side with the bully, and try to discredit the bullied, quite fascinating. There is even an element of victim blaming: he shouldn't have been such an annoying little tw.t and just shut his mouth.

None of us know if there was actual bullying going on, it's of course also open to interpretation and a little hard to prove. But the defense from Bora's side now seems to be: he's very demanding, very difficult to work with, we put a lot of effort in but he was never satisfied and he kept complaining. How does that disprove bullying? If anything it seems to be an excuse for why bullying may have taken place.

 

[AmRacer]

The argument that contracts in cycling are short-lived so you'd be unwise to bully is not very convincing. You could just as well argue the other way around: it's a dog eat dog world so you care less about your teammates and don't mind bullying as much, since next year you'll be on a different team anyway.

It's clear where you stand on the issue... I find this automatic tendency by you and most of this forum to side with the bully, and try to discredit the bullied, quite fascinating. There is even an element of victim blaming: he shouldn't have been such an annoying little tw.t and just shut his mouth.

None of us know if there was actual bullying going on, it's of course also open to interpretation and a little hard to prove. But the defense from Bora's side now seems to be: he's very demanding, very difficult to work with, we put a lot of effort in but he was never satisfied and he kept complaining. How does that disprove bullying? If anything it seems to be an excuse for why bullying may have taken place.

Where's the evidence he was bullied? He's probably a pain in the a... and when he didn't get what he demands. He feels being bullied.

 

[ManicJack]

Where's the evidence he was bullied? He's probably a pain in the a... and when he didn't get what he demands. He feels being bullied.

Where's the evidence he wasn't bullied?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

And don't worry, i won't last long, because i have no intention of staying long. Just dropped by quickly to mock people who think they know what bullying means and how unaffected people who have been bullied are by it.

Logic you are always welcome in the cyclinnews forum. We need you celebrating the big victories of Ilan Van wilder in 2024

 

[hrotha]

Where's the evidence he wasn't bullied?

Some of you didn't spend your teen years debating Christian fundies in tiny niche message boards and it shows. "Where's the evidence he wasn't bullied", yeah right

 

[Unchained]

I even heard Roglič was spotted in Bora mechanics truck loosening the shifters on Cian's TT bike. First they were not sure if that was really him, but videos showed an old guy wearing Visma kit with Bora helmet so it was clear it was really him.

But when he was confronted about this by Cian, he just mumbled "remember that Whatsapp group from Vuelta eeeehhhh"? So Cian decided enough is enough and called Visma to take him now.

There is a strange element here about contract law, employment law and common sense. If you work in a hostile workplace not sure if there is any standard entry, exit protocol. Don't like my job get a new one. Don't like my job, want a new, am under contract, what are the processes to break one contract and enter another. I have to defer to a world recognized expert in professional cycling, Patrick Lafevere.
He has made a series of public comments, some about contract issues with his team, his riders and a recent open ended comment about sponsor and team issues if weak unenforceable rider contracts can randomly be disregarded. I don't take lightly any health issues, for example autism, or depression, but considering those factors I still think that basic business principles should apply. Give your boss or owner an opportunity to right what you consider a wrong.
From the outside there could be revealing data to all. If what Cian considers bullying is made public, surely many teams, not just in cycling will realize that they also work in a hostile workplace and enjoy it, or are part of the problem. Many people on teams and management use certain gestures and language as motivation. So what is completely unacceptable to Cian, might be regular communication between other teams and teammates and staff.
If autism is involved that would almost always be out of bounds for criticism, jokes or informal anything.

 

[Blanco]

Thanks, but please don't tell me you are offended by my post, because that would be highly ironic coming from the guy who just stated: "Poor Cian! What has he survived and experienced... Nasty, mean WhatsApp bullying!"

And don't worry, i won't last long, because i have no intention of staying long. Just dropped by quickly to mock people who think they know what bullying means and how unaffected people who have been bullied are by it.

Oh no, not offended at all, just didn't know you're expert for bullying. And as you very well are, I would like to ask, what do you think in the scale from 1 to 10, what would be the severity of the bullying 20-year-old person by a WhatsApp group?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Oh no, not offended at all, just didn't know you're expert for bullying. And as you very well are, I would like to ask, what do you think in the scale from 1 to 10, what would be the severity of the bullying 20-year-old person by a WhatsApp group?

Thanks for proving my point by going forward with the ridiculing / questioning the impact this can have on people.

 

[ManicJack]

Thanks for proving my point by going forward with the ridiculing / questioning the impact this can have on people.

Based upon posts that are allowed to stand and those that are removed within 30 seconds, I guess the acceptance of bullying is the norm.

 

[Blanco]

Thanks for proving my point by going forward with the ridiculing / questioning the impact this can have on people.

The only thing I'm ridiculing is your point. You assume there was a bullying, but of course you can't back that up. On the contrary, I'm pretty much sure there wasn't anything near bullying, and that's why I have an ironic/sarcastic tone. So now if you pretty please have some info of what really happened, aka, what indeed was that famous bullying, I would like to know, and if I was wrong, you will hear an excuse immediately.

 

[ManicJack]

On the contrary, I'm pretty much sure there wasn't anything near bullying, and that's why I have an ironic/sarcastic tone. So now if you pretty please have some info of what really happened, aka, what indeed was that famous bullying, I would like to know, and if I was wrong, you will hear an excuse immediately.

That works both ways in the real world