Cipollini Blood Transfusions 2002

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 4, 2010
1,826
0
0
This 25 BB's thing is misleading. That's just because he didn't have the option to freeze blood. They would withdraw-reinfuse/withdraw-reinfuse/withdraw in cycles as an alternative to long term storage. It's not performance enhancing until you skip the withdrawal part (or withdraw less than you reinfuse).
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
This 25 BB's thing is misleading. That's just because he didn't have the option to freeze blood. They would withdraw-reinfuse/withdraw-reinfuse/withdraw in cycles as an alternative to long term storage. It's not performance enhancing until you skip the withdrawal part (or withdraw less than you reinfuse).
That makes sense, thank you, still a very full-on program though.
 
25 BB's? the Only purpose I can reason for such amount to be useful was to fill up his Ego:D

but seriously- if a sprinter is storing that amount of blood, what amount are we taking for a GC rider?
 
Mar 12, 2010
545
0
0
via @dimspace on twitter

7 december - 2 withdrawals
8 january - 2 withdrawals 2 infusions
6 february - 2 withdrawals 2 unfusions
2 march - 2 withrawals 2 infusions
Reinfuse for Milan san Remo (1 bag)
Reinfuse for Tirreno Adriatico (1 bag)

(16 bags)

And then a further number of bags for the Giro d'Italia but Gazzetta Dello Sport only say "as many as 25" they are not clear.
 
Jul 10, 2010
1,111
0
0
It was just too hot !

Anyone else remember the reason he gave for leaving the Festina Tour - the weather was too hot !

I can remember laughing with a few other club riders - too hot definitely but not sure the weather was anything to do with the temperature.
 
Mar 10, 2009
6,158
0
0
Freddythefrog said:
Anyone else remember the reason he gave for leaving the Festina Tour - the weather was too hot !

I can remember laughing with a few other club riders - too hot definitely but not sure the weather was anything to do with the temperature.
Cipo álways faked a crash to exit so its hard to correlate.
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
This 25 BB's thing is misleading. That's just because he didn't have the option to freeze blood. They would withdraw-reinfuse/withdraw-reinfuse/withdraw in cycles as an alternative to long term storage. It's not performance enhancing until you skip the withdrawal part (or withdraw less than you reinfuse).
I saw post 61 showing how it can be misleading. But can you please explain how this program works? how is this that effective?
 
Aug 13, 2010
3,317
0
0
Escarabajo said:
I saw post 61 showing how it can be misleading. But can you please explain how this program works? how is this that effective?
I suspect it works something like this.

In an ideal world (i.e. With freezing) you can keep blood from a transfusion for as long as needed.

In that scenario it is simple and would be something like:

7 december - 2 withdrawals
Reinfuse for Milan san Remo (1 bag)
Reinfuse for Tirreno Adriatico (1 bag)

However, if the blood you take out has a limited lifespan you need to keep reinfusing it to keep is usable

7 december
2 withdrawals (New bags A & B)

8 january
2 withdrawals (New bags C & D)
2 infusions (A & B)

6 february
2 withdrawals (New bags E & F)
2 infusions (C & D)

2 march
2 withrawals (New bags G & H)
2 infusions (E & F)

Reinfuse for Milan san Remo (1 bag (Bag G))
Reinfuse for Tirreno Adriatico (1 bag (Bag H))

This is just a guess tho.
 
May 21, 2010
581
0
0
Escarabajo said:
I saw post 61 showing how it can be misleading. But can you please explain how this program works? how is this that effective?

Somebody didn't read Tyler's book! Blood (without freezing) will become stale and useless for oxygen carrying duties. You need fresh blood for that. So in order to have a surplus supply of BB's for a tour for example you need to keep taking fresh blood out and then re-infusing the tired stale blood already on ice. But not before you take out the fresh blood. It starts to become very complicated after that and another reason why you really need to know what your doing.
 
Nov 12, 2012
864
0
0
I'll understand this story like Cipo's splurge.
Wouldn't be surprised if the story came directly from Cipo.
Since it's absurd to talk about clean top riders of the time, I expect to hear now all kinds of stories about who had more transfusions, EPO doses etc., similar to stories about who had more girls.
New way of relativization of problem (besides already present "move on" mantra).
From what I know for sure, cheating in cycling circles at the time wasn't considered like great sin, more like charming activity which carried certain amount of prestige. Riders caught in violation, publicly have denied their wrongdoing, but privately they used every opportunity to imply their involvement.
It's because they think fight against doping is something unjust, directed against riders per se, rather than principal thing, so they feel (felt) like contemporary Robin Hood(s), and part of the righteous struggle.
That's the discourse I'll put these stories in.
 
Nov 12, 2012
864
0
0
spalco said:
No offense, but that's nonsense imo. Might have been that way in the 70, 80 and 90s, but not anymore after Festina.
I'm talking about a rider from that era, ain't I?
And we're getting information about riders from that time, aren't we?
That kind of thinking: "might have been, but not anymore..." is exactly the mantra I'm mentioning.
Current generation have entered the sport during the dirtiest time of the sport. Do you think they weren't (aren't) affected by the Zeitgeist? I think they don't even know to ride without external aid.
 
Jul 7, 2012
509
0
0
Elagabalus said:
Blood (without freezing) will become stale and useless for oxygen carrying duties. You need fresh blood for that. So in order to have a surplus supply of BB's for a tour for example you need to keep taking fresh blood out and then re-infusing the tired stale blood already on ice.
I would be surprised if Cipollini had been doing this, as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones. I would also have thought that the stress on the body caused by having to reabsorb lots of dead blood cells would not do much for one's performance. For example:

Blood doping - a literature review by Mark Jones and Dan S Tunstall. Br. J. Sp. Med., Vol. 23, No. 2 (1989).

In the conventional blood bank method, whole blood is citrated and refrigerated at 40C. Despite the addition of preservatives and anticoagulants, the blood deteriorates steadily, the red cells becoming progressively less flexible and more fragile. There is an increase in blood viscosity resulting from this' and increased brittleness of the red cells means that these cells can fragment on reinfusion. Six to seven percent of the stored red cells are lost each week and because of this steady deterioration blood is not transfused after three weeks of conventional storage in the United States of America and after four weeks in Scandinavia. By that time between 30 and 40 per cent of the red blood cells may have been lost or be of no practical benefit when reinfused.

Conventional blood storage therefore is of minimal, if any, practical use for autologous blood doping, but could be used as a short term measure for heterologous blood transfusion. For autologous blood doping, the athlete is unlikely to have recovered fully from blood donation by the time the blood is transfused back and so although there may be some improvement above previous peak performance, the full potential advantage would not be gained.
It would have thought it more likely that he was using more frequent, but smaller, transfusions using methods similar to those used by Armstrong et al.
 
Nov 12, 2012
864
0
0
spalco said:
Maybe, but the crucial point I'm disagreeing with you on, is that that they do know it's wrong, and that being open about will hurt or even destroy their careers.
Hope you're right.
It would be disappointing and devastating if they are following the trends of the past.
... At least in apprehension of the matter.
 
Robert21 said:
It would have thought it more likely that he was using more frequent, but smaller, transfusions using methods similar to those used by Armstrong et al.
Or the blood was centrifuged (as is done with pretty much all modern blood donations as far as I know). Do we know Fuentes wasn't able to do that? Would surpise me.
 
Jul 7, 2012
509
0
0
spalco said:
Or the blood was centrifuged (as is done with pretty much all modern blood donations as far as I know). Do we know Fuentes wasn't able to do that? Would surpise me.
But centrifuging blood would, in itself, do nothing to slow down the rate of cell death. This is done primarily to remove the white cells and so reduce the likelihood of an adverse reaction to the transfusion, remove viri and so forth. It is more likely Fuentes was following the same method as used by Armstrong et al. Centrifuging is also associated with some pretty sophisticated blood storage methods. From the paper I cited earlier:


High glycerol freezing

An elaborate technique can be used for almost indefinite storage of red cells"4. This technique is used routinely for rare blood types and is being increasingly used for autologous blood transfusion where patients are facing a major operation and only wish to receive their own blood. The blood is centrifuged and glycerol added to the high concentration of red cells which are then frozen at -80°C in liquid nitrogen. For reinfusion, the cells are carefully thawed and undergo a series of washes of increasing osmolality to remove the glycerol. They are then resuspended in normal saline and reinfused in a suspension with haematocrit of approximately 50 per cent.

The ageing of the red blood cells is suspended by freezing and there is a total loss of only 15 per cent of the red cells during the total handling process". Blood can be stored for up to ten years using this technique and the technique maximises the recovery of red blood cells and ensures that an adequate interval can be obtained between venesection and reinfusion of the blood for blood doping.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY