Thanks. Just what I thought. Slightly complicated.Don't be late Pedro said:I suspect it works something like this.
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Thanks. Just what I thought. Slightly complicated.Don't be late Pedro said:I suspect it works something like this.
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I think you are missing some important information. That has never stopped anyone from trying. See Chris Carmichael's "extract of cortisone."Robert21 said:I would be surprised if Cipollini had been doing this, as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method.
Define "do much." The blood that works in a re-infusion is a substantial advantage. On top of that, if you are one of 5 guys in a peloton re-infusing, then the field just got a whole lot smaller.Robert21 said:Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones. I would also have thought that the stress on the body caused by having to reabsorb lots of dead blood cells would not do much for one's performance. For example:
It would have thought it more likely that he was using more frequent, but smaller, transfusions using methods similar to those used by Armstrong et al.
I never said that I 'doubted' that Cipollini used blood doping. I merely suggested that he probably used the same techniques as adopted by other riders, such as Armstrong, and said that the seemingly large number of bags used could simply be due to him using smaller, but more frequent, transfusions.DirtyWorks said:Doubting Cipo's use of blood bags because some research shows it does not work that well is a bad practice.
as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones.Robert21 said:I never said that I 'doubted' that Cipollini used blood doping. I merely suggested that he probably used the same techniques as adopted by other riders, such as Armstrong, and said that the seemingly large number of bags used could simply be due to him using smaller, but more frequent, transfusions.
But I was referring specifically to the claim that one can blood-dope effectively merely by withdrawing blood and re-infusing it a short time later, especially without resort to low temperate storage and other blood preservation techniques. I had thought that my post had made this pretty clear.DirtyWorks said:as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones.
The use of the phrases "has been known for a long time" and "bottom line" suggest some sort of confidence in the matter. I was responding to the use of those phrases.
Again, I appreciate referencing some research on the matter. We don't have enough of it posted!
What exactly was Armstrong's method?Robert21 said:I never said that I 'doubted' that Cipollini used blood doping. I merely suggested that he probably used the same techniques as adopted by other riders, such as Armstrong, and said that the seemingly large number of bags used could simply be due to him using smaller, but more frequent, transfusions.
Look up the accounts of Hamilton and Landis.spalco said:What exactly was Armstrong's method?
Just as I suspected, much smaller than the '800 ml of packed cells' used by USP / Disco, even if the storage and treatment of the blood was in all probability pretty much the same.skippy said:This item landed in my email today :
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/vWXKL/~3/jDDzIzIFtbU/cipollini-doped-to-gills.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email
seems the bags are 250ml
This was Tyler's and Fuentes method and presumedly Cipo's too. I noticed that article is from 1989. I have a sports medicine book from that same era and says the same thing about blood doping.Robert21 said:I would be surprised if Cipollini had been doing this, as it has been known for a long time that it does not work as an effective doping method. Bottom line is that that once extracted the cells in storage often die off at a faster rate than the body can generate new ones. I would also have thought that the stress on the body caused by having to reabsorb lots of dead blood cells would not do much for one's performance. For example:
It would have thought it more likely that he was using more frequent, but smaller, transfusions using methods similar to those used by Armstrong et al.