Circ

[Race Radio]

Vino and Riis has ignored all requests it seems...
.

Not so sure about Riis

 

[mrhender]

Big time. If Cookson were to toss Vino and Riis to the side of the road, his critics may have to reevaluate their position a bit.

And judging by Cookson strong stance against JTL, it makes me wonder just how much flak he really deserves.

JTL is British.
He rode for Team Sky.
He won the friggin' Tour of Britain.

How much more "British" could JTL be? (He's certainly more British than Froome.)

If Cookson was dead set on protecting all things under the Queen, I don't think he'd taking such a hard line on JTL. If his critics are willing to accept nothing short of him exposing and expelling Wiggins, they're likely to be mostly disappointed.

I'm mostly ambivalent on Cookson. I really haven't made up mind either way, nor have I felt the need to. He just hasn't been in office very long. But come January, if an independent organization is really set up to handle anti-doping (and that appears to be on schedule), and based on CIRC he begins to throw unrepentant past dopers out of the sport, then I can't imagine how he could possibly be considered "worse for cycling than McQuaid."

This could be the most entertaining off-season in quite some time.

I think the national sentiment should be left out of this...
It is much more interesting to discuss wether this is for real or not..

It could be that the CIRC has very little to "show" from their work and that Cookson is attempting a last chance scare to testify...

We don't know yet..

But I'am leaning towards the option that he is actually trying to do something...
(not sure about his motives or if he is consistent though)

I share your ambivalence on Cookson..
All though I think trust is to be earned in this sport rather than beeing granted beforehand...

And if he showed those two the door.
It would probably secure him saint-status and make him untouchable...
What I'am saying is that his motives could be two-sided..

 

[mrhender]

Not so sure about Riis

Do tell......

 

[Netserk]

Not so sure about Riis

I don't know about CIRC, but he certainly has talked with ADD.

 

[thehog]

I would assume Vaughters has co-operated with CIRC.

I don't think he will be thrown out.

Yes, I'm sure JV was in there doing his normal dance around the issues.

"Yes CIRC, it was all Lance, prior to that no one could speak or go on the record, not my fault".

I'm sure the final report will have some classic quotes. I look forward to it.

 

[mrhender]

I don't know about CIRC, but he certainly has talked with ADD.

Yes.. But if the general assumption of the CIRC is that they are
similar in effect and consequense as a "repent of bad behavior thread" would be here, then no need to take the risk...
Cookson seems to imply that they do have severe options if not participating in the process...

 

[DirtyWorks]

FWIW, 2015 January is when the next version of the WADA code is supposed to take effect.

I've read bits of it and it seems like they are trying to close the free interaction of coaches, doctors, etc. who are not under WADA rules with athletes.

This may or may not have anything to do with the January deadlines being discussed.

 

[sniper]

I would assume Vaughters has co-operated with CIRC.
I don't think he will be thrown out.

of course he won't.
a couple of guys including Vaughters, David Millar, and of course most of Team Sky are waaaaay too big to fail from Cookson's pov.

 

[mrhender]

FWIW, 2015 January is when the next version of the WADA code is supposed to take effect.

I've read bits of it and it seems like they are trying to close the free interaction of coaches, doctors, etc. who are not under WADA rules with athletes.

This may or may not have anything to do with the January deadlines being discussed.

Interesting..

A lot of coherent time-scales...

We might have to be online in january

 

[Granville57]

We might have to be online in january

Someone should probably give a heads-up to CN tech support.

 

[mrhender]

Someone should probably give a heads-up to CN tech support.

At least the Korean Bot seems to have lost interest...
That should clear out some room

 

[Race Radio]

I don't know about CIRC, but he certainly has talked with ADD.

I have heard a few things from folks who would know that he had spoke with them but can't say for sure.

 

[Granville57]

Regarding the issue of what becomes public information from CIRC, I had forgotten about this:

Travis Tygart, Usada's chief executive and the man who brought down Armstrong, has disclosed that there have been discussions with the Cycling Independent Reform Commission over sharing information from Usada's exhaustive inquiry and in particular the identities of a number of riders and support staff allegedly linked to doping who have yet to be named publicly.

"We've had communication with the CIRC that we are going to present this all to them because there is a whole lot of information out there that would be helpful in cleaning out the system that is there," said Tygart, speaking at the Tackling Doping in Sport conference at Wembley. "I am hopeful the new CIRC process will deal with all of that and it will all be out in public and we can finally put a stake in the ground so this can never happen again."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/lance-armstrongs-nemesis-set-to-name-names-9206436.html

 

[mrhender]

Potential bans for Riis/Vino as a result from the CIRC

A sincere question.

It is hypothetical and one that I have not yet answered for myself.

If the CIRC results end up with UCI making a move against Riis and Vino.

Would you consider it real progress? How would you rate such an event?

Three primary things to consider. (at minimum- add more?)

1) The result of such ban
-things being cleaner (maybe)?
-fairness?
-etc.

2) The alternative motives behind such action
-appearance (selling a new clean version)
-ambitiousness
-etc.

3) Who else gets the hammer?

For the moment I would like you to entertain the possibility that such action will be taken.. It's not about debunking the statements of Cookson as pure PR etc.. It's a hypothetical question as mentioned before...

 

[TheSpud]

Because Hein lived in Switzerland at the time.

Ok, but Lance lived in the US / Spain when he sued The Times in England after Walsh's (extraordinary) accusations because that is where they were published (as well as the book in France). Specifically he didn't sue Walsh in France or Spain as far as I am aware.

Which I think is the nub of why I am a little bit confused. If he sues in Switzerland it will be unenforceable in the EU. If he sues in the EU I guess it may be enforceable across one / all / some of the countries.

Just seems strange.

 

[TheSpud]

A sincere question.

It is hypothetical and one that I have not yet answered for myself.

If the CIRC results end up with UCI making a move against Riis and Vino.

Would you consider it real progress? How would you rate such an event?

Three primary things to consider. (at minimum- add more?)

1) The result of such ban
-things beeing cleaner (maybe)?
-fairness?
-etc.

2) The alternative motives behind such action
-appearance (selling a new clean version)
-ambitiousness
-etc.

3) Who else gets the hammer?

For the moment I would like you to entertain the possibility that such action will be taken.. It's not about debunking the statements of Cookson as pure PR etc.. It's a hypothetical question as mentioned before...

Not sure if there is any right or wrong answer to this one, but (as a quick and dirty 5 minute thought on this):

Vino is a convicted doper. He has done his time and come back within the rules to ride again. But is he really the sort of person we want running a team nowadays?

Riis - confessed and handed back his jersey. Massively implicated by other riders. No suspension due to loads of reasons, but yet again is he a DS we want in the sport?

I could probably make a case either way for both of them. Question is, if Riis goes then what about Vaughters, Andreu, etc. who as far as I am aware have at least been vocal about being sorry and wanting to change things (yeah I know - we can all argue about whether they are sincere or not).

I'm not sure its as black and white as people would like to make out - ie, should there be dispensation for confessors?

 

[mrhender]

Not sure if there is any right or wrong answer to this one, but (as a quick and dirty 5 minute thought on this):

Vino is a convicted doper. He has done his time and come back within the rules to ride again. But is he really the sort of person we want running a team nowadays?

Riis - confessed and handed back his jersey. Massively implicated by other riders. No suspension due to loads of reasons, but yet again is he a DS we want in the sport?

I could probably make a case either way for both of them. Question is, if Riis goes then what about Vaughters, Andreu, etc. who as far as I am aware have at least been vocal about being sorry and wanting to change things (yeah I know - we can all argue about whether they are sincere or not).

I'm not sure its as black and white as people would like to make out - ie, should there be dispensation for confessors?

Good post...

To the bolded..

Yes, I see a lot of arguments to Riis/vino being showed the door..
But to me that is a somewhat narrow perspective that only fuels the new narrative of clean cycling which is often told. This clean stamp eventually serves the purpose of bringing in more money to the sport (as well as it could be pure intentions).. So inbetween those there is the problem of drawing a line for when such stamp is warranted. For me that line is not throwing those two out..

As to the dispensation/reduction of bans..
It makes sense that you need the carrot as well as the stick..
If you are to encourage people to talk, carrots matter..
What I'am more concerned about is that those who accept the carrot get to tell their version meanwhile those in the other end may not be given same credibility or even be heard... That may sound like I'am defending those reluctant to talk.. But that is another grey area for me..

I think you are right that there is no right or wrong answer..
Questions only seem to multiply down the road..
Which for me, is a fascinating part of the issue..

 

[Granville57]

Riis - confessed and handed back his jersey.

But did he? I remember him saying this:

"My yellow jersey is in a box in my garage at home. You can come and collect it. What matters to me are my memories."

A rather small point in the scheme of things, but I wonder if he still has that Yellow Jersey?

 

[mrhender]

But did he? I remember him saying this:

"My yellow jersey is in a box in my garage at home. You can come and collect it. What matters to me are my memories."

A rather small point in the scheme of things, but I wonder if he still has that Yellow Jersey?

Unless he secretly sold it, or gave it away -i think he has...

No one to my knowledge ever came to pick it up..

And it's a quite telling statement of his character btw..

"you can do as you please I know who won that Tour"

 

[Granville57]

]"you can do as you please I know who won that Tour"

Sounds familiar.

"I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours," Armstrong said then. "The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that."

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Riis already sold his team and is now on a hefty retainer. If he gets booted from the sport the team exists and continues no worries. Pretty sure the sale of the team includes the license.

I am too busy, but can anyone track that sale / purchase to coincide with CIRC murmurs? Was Riis given a heads up and did that help his decision to sell? He seemed pretty reticent and then all of a sudden flipped it (from foggy memory).

Either way, UCI can't touch Riis in any way that would lead to any real discomfort, financially or otherwise. He's made his millions and is now swimming in post-doping career gravy.

 

[ebandit]

From memory I think Riis sold because of impending actions of the Danish Fed

Mark L

 

[peloton]

From memory I think Riis sold because of impending actions of the Danish Fed

Mark L

Anti Doping Denmark that is. The investigation where verdict was expected in January 2014

 

[mrhender]

From memory I think Riis sold because of impending actions of the Danish Fed

Mark L

Correct..
Only it is Anti-doping Denmark (ADD) and not feds.

Since the proclamation of the sale it has been the general understanding in Denmark that he was selling the team before the investigation findings are published and action taken from it.

1. He wants to capitalize on his investment before it is too late. (the team would be a worthless commodity if he as team owner was busted for running a program)

2. He wants to ensure that his life-work lives on.

3. The sale has lifted a heavy burden of his shoulders. Both in terms of workload, ensuring sponsors etc. and of course the upcoming results of ADD and now CIRC ...

4. We also know that he last year was suffering from heavy depression because among other things the pressure from danish media and others due to the Tyler/Rasmussen revelations.

In light of those points is was a natural choice to sell the team..

For a year or so there have been rumors that ADD where almost done.
Now however there seems to be coherence with the announced CIRC findings in jaunuary as latest rumors say ADD will be ready at that time also.
Which is fuel to the latest Cookson comments on bans coming from the CIRC.

As I have said before they might need some more recent revelations to give him a life-ban (old things from Tyler/Ramussen etc. may not be enough to legally ensure a life ban) and that could be one more reason to push the Kreuziger case hard.. If Kreuziger faces a four-year ban he might just be willing to consider a deal... But that is pure speculation on my part..

 

[mrhender]

Vayer on CIRC...

http://ekstrabladet.dk/ekstra/sportogspil/article5276235.ece
(pay wall)

Google translate:

While Anti-Doping Denmark thorough investigation of doping in cycling in the last 20 years seems to be at a standstill, rattling international CIRC investigation forward and expected to be completed in January after a year's work.

This will lead to a final showdown with the doping mentality that has dominated the sport for decades, assesses the Frenchman Antoine Vayer, which is one of many actors in cycling who have testified to cycling independent Reform Commission, CIRC.

- I think that the conclusion will be that people like Bjarne Riis and Alexandre Vinokourov has no place in cycling, says Vayer in view of the sports directors respectively Tinkoff-Saxo and Astana, which both have a shady past.

- There is only one thing to do and that is to get rid of them. I am sure that the commission is not after a year's work concludes that all is well and that the bike is pure Disneyland.

- The Commission is established to transform the sport of cycling, and it's going to happen. I think in January we finally take a big step towards a clean cycling, says Vayer.

He was in his time coach at the scandalous Festina team that was through doped, and since then he has tirelessly fought against doperne the box and the hypocrisy that in his opinion, ruler of the sport.

Charges of organized doping Bjarne Riis' management is raining down on the Danish sports director, but they seem to bounce off him.

Not least on the social network Twitter suspicion he with biting irony virtually anyone who wins a race. He further - using it, his critics derisively call 'pseudo-science' - concluded that the favorites in the big stage races over the past 20 years has done either 'suspicious', 'miraculous' or 'mutants'.

It has obviously not made ​​him popular on the box, which he regarded as unreliable, if not downright lunatic. But no one has brought against him, although he thus proclaims all of Indurain and Riis Armstrong and Contador to dopere.


- I know that I am right and they know they. If the defendant me, I'd be happy as we could in a courtroom get the whole truth out, says Vayer.

- I have nothing to be afraid of. But there are many who have reason to be afraid of CIRC. People like Vinokourov and Riis, for example.

Antoine Vayer said he in February this year turned to CIRC and testified about his knowledge of doping in the box. In addition to the controversial Frenchman, it is only certain that Lance Armstrong has had interviewed. It has his lawyers stated to the press, but in addition, nothing escaped.

UCI president Brian Cookson has on several occasions called Bjarne Riis to testify to the CIRC.


About Riis and Vinokourov followed UCI president Brian Cook's urgent appeal to appear before the CIRC is therefore uncertain.