Clean Aussie Pro's

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Are you saying that only pure climbers are "natural" GT talents???

How are you going to explain The Badger's palmares?

GT talents are, generally, all rounders who recover very well. Pure climbers are the exception here, not the rule.

I was indeed speaking about Evans as a climber (see the post to which hrotha responded).
I was labelling him a mediocre talent mainly on the basis of his poor climbing style viz. a notable lack of souplesse when going uphill.
Not saying he didn't go fast uphill, he did, and that's exactly the point: I'd argue he compensated for a lack of natural climbing talent by doping outrageously.

Sure. The point I'm making is that there is a very large difference between a GT rider who is better at TT's using their diesel engine to limit losses to the goats up climbs, and the complete EPO transformation of someone who would otherwise lose 30+ minutes on a climbing stage into an uphill genius.

I think Jalabert and Armstrong were the exemplars of the latter. Indurain is a more open question: he was very good in 1990 when he was riding for Delgado (on the juice then? Perhaps, perhaps not), but good enough for 5 straight without help? Very unlikely.

To put Evans in that camp is a bit illogical - it just misses a whole category of rider. i.e. anyone who wins GT's and isn't a goat must, by definition be doping. Evans may well have been, but this isn't a very convincing reason to think so.

very fair points.

Like you, me too I don't think we're looking at an EPO-fuelled donkey to racehorse scenario here.
More like an average (ok, quite decent judging from 2002) GT rider transforming into a podium contender with the help of gross amounts of HGH in combination with the more traditional stuff.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

What's so hard about putting on muscle when you're a super lean cyclist type? The hard part is losing it.

Yeah I am not understanding the skullduggery of a professional athlete developing muscle from 19 to 25 as a full-time athlete.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

What's so hard about putting on muscle when you're a super lean cyclist type? The hard part is losing it.

Yeah I am not understanding the skullduggery of a professional athlete developing muscle from 19 to 25 as a full-time athlete.

concede this. but see marathoners, do they put on much weight? the non-african racial athlete type? most stay around jockey leanness[sic]. see the Brownlee brothers in triathlon.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Running imo is far more catabolic than cycling. You cannot roll downhill when running. Have to pound every single step.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

What's so hard about putting on muscle when you're a super lean cyclist type? The hard part is losing it.

Yeah I am not understanding the skullduggery of a professional athlete developing muscle from 19 to 25 as a full-time athlete.

more like from 25 to 30 (see pics/posts above)
couldn't think of any other pro-athlete, let alone a cyclist/endurance athlete, with similar muscle development.
guys like Nadal and Murray bulked up similarly, but these guys were at their bulkiest already at 25, so arguably more credible than Cadel, who bulked up after his 25th.
and good point, blackcat.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So 19 to 30 and you don't think a full-time athlete would put some weight on between those 2 ages?

:-/

 

[blackcat]

Re:

So 19 to 30 and you don't think a full-time athlete would put some weight on between those 2 ages?

:-/

some weight, sure. the question is how much. i am not disagreeing with you. it is merely a question to determine where in the continuum? and this is all a little bit silly, i know that.

 

[hrotha]

Nadal bulked up similarly

LOOOOOL

Firing at random just to see what it sticks.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Nadal bulked up similarly

LOOOOOL

Firing at random just to see what it sticks.

you're not engaging with my arguments.
here again, just for you, he's 25 there.
http://www.ridemedia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Evans-2002_YS.jpg
compare that with the other pic i just posted where he's 30+
Now if you can be bothered try and give me an example of another athlete, preferably a cyclist, but anywhich one will do, who bulked up similarly.

 

[sniper]

Re:

So 19 to 30 and you don't think a full-time athlete would put some weight on between those 2 ages?

:-/

you're bending it like beckham, DW.
'put some weight on'
if his weight development is not remarkable, it should be easy to give me another example from cycling.
and please consider his Mapei weight as the starting point. He's 24/25 there, a full grown athlete.
At 25 Cadel looked more like a Schleck or a Wiggins.
At 30+ Cadel has the same weight/musculature as a Sagan.

 

[sniper]

before (2002, age 25):

after (2008, age 31):
http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2011/01/EVANS.jpg

 

[hrotha]

Look, no amount of pics is going to convince me, because I don't buy the notion that the transformation is remarkable or, indeed, impossible or even hard without PEDs.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

So 19 to 30 and you don't think a full-time athlete would put some weight on between those 2 ages?

:-/

you're bending it like beckham, DW.
'put some weight on'
if his weight development is not remarkable, it should be easy to give me another example from cycling.
and please consider his Mapei weight as the starting point. He's 24/25 there, a full grown athlete.
At 25 Cadel looked more like a Schleck or a Wiggins.
At 30+ Cadel has the same weight/musculature as a Sagan.

Uh no he's nothing like Sagan.

Do you actually know his weights?

@ 22, the AIS guy who was testing him says 455W = 7.3W/kg = 62kg
http://www.ridemedia.com.au/past-issue/lance-vs-cadel-a-study-of-two-22-year-olds/

His Wiki says 64kg. That's a whopping 2kg increase.

Sagan is 9cm taller and at least 13 kg heavier (Wiki says 77kg).

Pictures are confusing, trust me, and your claim "Cadel has the same weight/musculature as a Sagan" is almost looking silly.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Look, no amount of pics is going to convince me, because I don't buy the notion that the transformation is remarkable or, indeed, impossible or even hard without PEDs.

I wouldn't buy it either if anyone could give me an example of a cyclist going through a similar growth.

To be sure, you're saying it's possible/unremarkable for a pro-endurance athlete to just grow those muscles over the years between age 25 and 30?
Or you're saying he spent alot of time in the gym?
Or you're saying the fotographic evidence is not reliable?
Imo only the latter would be a fair argument.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So 19 to 30 and you don't think a full-time athlete would put some weight on between those 2 ages?

:-/

you're bending it like beckham, DW.
'put some weight on'
if his weight development is not remarkable, it should be easy to give me another example from cycling.
and please consider his Mapei weight as the starting point. He's 24/25 there, a full grown athlete.
At 25 Cadel looked more like a Schleck or a Wiggins.
At 30+ Cadel has the same weight/musculature as a Sagan.

Uh no he's nothing like Sagan.

Do you actually know his weights?

@ 22, the AIS guy who was testing him says 455W = 7.3W/kg = 62kg
http://www.ridemedia.com.au/past-issue/lance-vs-cadel-a-study-of-two-22-year-olds/

His Wiki says 64kg. That's a whopping 2kg increase.

Sagan is 9cm taller and at least 6 kg heavier.

Pictures are confusing, trust me, and your claim "Cadel has the same weight/musculature as a Sagan" is almost looking silly.

thanks for the data (was actially looking for his weight at Mapei, couldn't find it). that's a fair counterargument.
Indeed if those weight indications are correct, that's not spectacular, and the photographic 'evidence' might have put me on the wrong foot.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The MTB pic is deceptive due to the pose of the rider. And when someone is sitting on a bike you halve the height difference, so people can look very similarly sized until they stand up.

There's an old pic of Armstrong looking the same size (pretty much) as his team mates, dressed in casual gear up on a stage, due in most part to the wide angle lens with Lance further forward and the others slouching a bit.

Pics can be very deceptive.

 

[sniper]

Other observers too got deceived by the photographic evidence:

"Evans wasn't a pure climber - he was too chunky for that - but could grind out a tempo and limit his losses against the more attacking light-weight riders."
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/cadel-evans-to-retire-from-cycling-in-february-20140925-10m94g.html

Isn't 64kg a light-weight rider?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Don't get me wrong, he's chunky. 64kg for 1.74m is heavy compared to Froome's current 66kg for 1.85m frame.

 

[sniper]

fair.
So at age 25 Cadel was almost as lean as Contador now (62kg at 1.76).
I find that conceivable (judging from the photos),
However, I have trouble believing that the difference between Cadel-age-25 and Cadel-age-30+ is only 2kg.
Iow, I'm still skeptic about the 64kg.

 

[sniper]

btw, my wiki says 68kg (at age 38).
where does your 64kg come from?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm googling "cadel evans race weight" and wiki comes up. In the rider profile box on the RHS it has his details at a glance, including height and weight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadel_Evans

 

[Dear Wiggo]

 

[King Boonen]

While I doubt he's clean, Evans is certainly one of the more believable Tour winners of recent years based on the way he won.

 

[sniper]

ok, cheers, so it's not my wiki, but my google that says 68.
type in 'cadel evans' in google and on the right hand side you get a box with his personal details, saying 68kgs, but i assume that's at age 38?
still, 68 comes closer to what I'd estimate him to have weighed at age 30, 30+

 

[sniper]

This blog from 2007 has Cadel's BMI at 22.8, which means by that time he weighed an estimated 69kg.
http://www.tyleroneverything.com/tag/healthy-weight/
so a 7kg increase from age 25 to age 30.
roughly corresponds to my interpretation of the photographic evidence.
not normal.