Clinic Posters

[airstream]

Probably, clinic stuff gives more food for thought, versions, misteries, more opportunities for really сreative posting. Although sometimes I just enjoy, reading the posts of such brightest guys as Hrotha, Merckx Index and others.

 

[SiAp1984]

What.. What I don't get is.. why..? What's the point discussing doped riders/speculations if you don't give a crap about the actual sport?

I don't see the problem here. I, of course, am interested in pro cycling. But I am also interested in how this sport is done. And sport has to be conducted by the official rules. So athletes who do not compete according to those rules destroy the sport, even if it might be the majority of the athletes actually competing. So I think it is important to discuss doping-related matters in context to the regular sport. Mere speculation without any reliable hints on doping concerning one rider is pointless. Of course, the borderlines are not clear-cut.

But eg if a guy like AC is mentioned in context with Fuentes and does a double positive years later, I cannot see him as one of the potentially clean riders anymore. So every single one of his performances is suspicious and I cannot enjoy watching him racing anymoreas with every race he does while bein under serious suspicion, he visibly damages the sprot I love. During the Olympics, I like to watch olympic wrestling. But I never watch WWE/WWF (I do not know what it's called these days). Same is true for cycling. If the doped guys had their official "Climbers Monster Mash"-events, I would not watch it. I'd stick with traditional cycling.

The purpose of doping discussion is in my eyes to stigmatize cheats and liars as such. And this purpose is absolutely important an legitimate.

 

[Abstainer]

I understand where SiAP1984 is coming from, but what fascinates me about doping is that I feel these moral absolutes break down once you reach a critical mass of doping athletes, which is what has happened with cycling. I feel philosophically it makes little sense to stigmatise Contador when it is very likely that everyone he is riding against is doing (or has done) something similar. I think one has to stop following the sport, or else try to understand the situation with rather more sympathy to those involved.

Also, I also can't really see the moral difference between an athlete taking a performance enhancing drug to go faster or a soccer player deliberately fouling an opponent. Or indeed, a cricketer who knows he has edged a ball to the wicketkeeper but doesn't walk (an attitude to fair play that I've seen change in my lifetime.) But we accept Madonna's famous hand ball again England in 1986, even though I feel it is morally rather more heinous than anything laid at Armstrong's door. When I am periodically drawn to doping forums, it is more in the hope that I'll find discussions that help clarify these issues, but I'm usually disappointed.

I think discussions are also hamstrung by a lack of knowledge (through no one's fault) of how much of the world works. I note that SiAP1984 is from Germany. In my experience, there is no visible corruption in Germany and the overwhelming majority of the population obey and respect the rules. I live in the UK and have a similar experience. Both countries have corrupt politicians, arms dealers etc, but the average person doesn't encounter it. But then try and live in Eastern Europe. You cannot run a business there without cheating, either on your taxes, who you employ, how you employ people. If you are stopped by the police, they usually have their own price. Indeed, it is very difficult for anyone to adhere to the rules. And yet if you do live in one of these countries (as I have), people aren't monsters. And you realise you aren't a monster for being dragged along by it all. That is simply the reality of life there. I think it is unhealthy for a country to live like this and steps have to be taken to change attitudes. But to grab a Hungarian businessman, and call him a cheat because of what he was obliged to pay in back-handers to win a contract is meaningless, because that is how things work there and you can't function otherwise.

In my view, cycling is like a typical East European society where everyone is socialised into breaking the written rules. But then again, so is soccer... If doping was treated as a health issue, then I think it would be far easier to get something done. Treating it as a grievous moral fault is intellectually unjustifiable and totally counterproductive.

 

[SiAp1984]

Also, I also can't really see the moral difference between an athlete taking a performance enhancing drug to go faster or a soccer player deliberately fouling an opponent. Or indeed, a cricketer who knows he has edged a ball to the wicketkeeper but doesn't walk (an attitude to fair play that I've seen change in my lifetime.) But we accept Madonna's famous hand ball again England in 1986, even though I feel it is morally rather more heinous than anything laid at Armstrong's door. When I am periodically drawn to doping forums, it is more in the hope that I'll find discussions that help clarify these issues, but I'm usually disappointed.

I think discussions are also hamstrung by a lack of knowledge (through no one's fault) of how much of the world works. I note that SiAP1984 is from Germany. In my experience, there is no visible corruption in Germany and the overwhelming majority of the population obey and respect the rules. I live in the UK and have a similar experience. Both countries have corrupt politicians, arms dealers etc, but the average person doesn't encounter it. But then try and live in Eastern Europe. You cannot run a business there without cheating, either on your taxes, who you employ, how you employ people. If you are stopped by the police, they usually have their own price. Indeed, it is very difficult for anyone to adhere to the rules. And yet if you do live in one of these countries (as I have), people aren't monsters. And you realise you aren't a monster for being dragged along by it all. That is simply the reality of life there. I think it is unhealthy for a country to live like this and steps have to be taken to change attitudes. But to grab a Hungarian businessman, and call him a cheat because of what he was obliged to pay in back-handers to win a contract is meaningless, because that is how things work there and you can't function otherwise.

In my view, cycling is like a typical East European society where everyone is socialised into breaking the written rules. But then again, so is soccer... If doping was treated as a health issue, then I think it would be far easier to get something done. Treating it as a grievous moral fault is intellectually unjustifiable and totally counterproductive.

I also get your point and have only two small little remarks. First, here certainly is a level of corruption in Germany. Currently, the German president and head of state is caught up in a giant net of suspicions that he was corrupt when he led the German state of Lower Saxony. I can't say anything about corruption in other countries.

Second remark is that I am not sure if we tolerate unsporty behaviour in footbal. Maradonnas goal was just unfair and I would consider it being notorious more than glorified. If a soccer player commits a foul, he usually immediately is sanctioned by the referee with a yellow or red card. There are exceptions, but they usually are not glorified but condemned (eg the famous foul by German national keeper Toni Schumacher against a french player in the semi-final of the 1986 (or 1982, I am not sure) world cup. And even during the last world cup, when England scored a goal against Germany which was not given, I - as a German soccer fan - didn't like that wrongful decision (in spite of Wembley 1966, which - of course - was no goal either ;-) ). So I see a point in stigmatizing the guys caught doping. Not in the way done in the 90s saying "Hey, we caught Festina, now the Peloton is clean" but in a way saying "See, we even busted Contador - the greatest of his time - and we will keep going". One day, that may lead to a clean sport. For sure, it will lead to a cleanER sport.

 

[The Plediadian]

A lot of people care about certain personalities that allegedly dope than cycling.

I guess when wearing the blinders of hate one must have the lazerlike focus of hate on a certain Mr.Lance Armstrong.
Of course, it is always in vogue here to bash Phil Liggett,Paul Sherwin, Cav. Andy Schleck, Bob Roll, Chris Horner, Levi Leipheimer, Johann Bruyneel, Radio Shack, or the former LeOpard team, etc. just to keep the appearances of a balanced and "authentic forum."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I guess when wearing the blinders of hate one must have the lazerlike focus of hate on a certain Mr.Lance Armstrong.
Of course, it is always in vogue here to bash Phil Liggett,Paul Sherwin, Cav. Andy Schleck, Bob Roll, Chris Horner, Levi Leipheimer, Johann Bruyneel, Radio Shack, or the former LeOpard team, etc. just to keep the appearances of a balanced and "authentic forum."

I wrote this in response to the OP earlier - but your nonsense above underlines my observation:

To be fair, as you have not named anyone then it can be difficult to know who or why they post.

But as a general observation, some posters post almost exclusively on threads relating to particular riders and as this is The Clinic, they are usually defending them. Nothing wrong with that at all - but they may lurk in many threads put only post on a few.

 

[The Plediadian]

I wrote this in response to the OP earlier - but your nonsense above underlines my observation:

Some of us chose to be objective and fair, Dr. Lancia. In other words, the pains we experience are our own pain and we do not cause pain on others, for our own benefit.

10,000+ posts about a skinny little bike racer from Austin, Texas are a bit obsessive.

 

[Velodude]

Some of us chose to be objective and fair, Dr. Lancia. In other words, the pains we experience are our own pain and we do not cause pain on others, for our own benefit.

10,000+ posts about a skinny little bike racer from Austin, Texas are a bit obsessive.

Liggett & Sherwin would take offense to your description of him as the skinny little bike racer from Austin, Texas.

To them he is the "big Texan". Obviously not for stature but for the dark shadow he casts over the sport.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Some of us chose to be objective and fair, Dr. Lancia. In other words, the pains we experience are our own pain and we do not cause pain on others, for our own benefit.

10,000+ posts about a skinny little bike racer from Austin, Texas are a bit obsessive.

Unlike you I post in lots of threads, about lots of riders and lots of different subjects.
So, when you only discuss the 'skinny bike racer from Austin' and about other posters, then no - you are far from objective or fair.

 

[The Plediadian]

Unlike you I post in lots of threads, about lots of riders and lots of different subjects.
So, when you only discuss the 'skinny bike racer from Austin' and about other posters, then no - you are far from objective or fair.

My friend was at one of those xterra mb tri races. They were standing in the water,ready for the start when all the competitors are whispering Lance look its Lance. My friend hears that walks over to Lance and says hey Lance hows it goin.
Lance eyeballs my friend up and down. Who is this competitor, Lance says to himself. Lance looks at my friend smiles and shakes his hand, no words said by Lance.
Class as always by Lance. Even as a 40 year old tri guy.

 

[pmcg76]

I guess when wearing the blinders of hate one must have the lazerlike focus of hate on a certain Mr.Lance Armstrong.
Of course, it is always in vogue here to bash Phil Liggett,Paul Sherwin, Cav. Andy Schleck, Bob Roll, Chris Horner, Levi Leipheimer, Johann Bruyneel, Radio Shack, or the former LeOpard team, etc. just to keep the appearances of a balanced and "authentic forum."

I think like people who follow any sports, there will be athletes who are liked and disliked. In reference to all the people you listed, there are perfectly logical reasons for disliking them.

Personally havent heard P & P in years but I know that I would much rather have the Eurosports guys any day and they get criticised as well.

Cav, well Cav just comes across as a tool sometimes. Other than that nothing to dislike for me.

A.Schleck, seriously have you ever watched the guy race....that is when he actually does race and the whining. Jeez there are plenty of justifiable reasons to dislike Schleck.

Bob Roll, I cannot comment as I never see him.

Chris Horner, I think people dislike Horner coz he switched sides somewhere along the way and is perfroming way better at 40 than he was in his late 20s which is hard to believe.

Levi, I think people just find his style of racing boring. Wheelsuck most of the time and then win in the TT. Maybe not fair on him but when fans want to see an exciting spectacle, Levi is not the guy. That applies to a multiple of sports where people just dont like watching boring athletes or teams. Also like Horner, perfroming better coming near 40 than he was iin his prime years.

Bruyneel, Radioshack and Lance all go together so no explanation required.

As for Leopard, any team that comes into the sport at the top level and then just decides to dump half their team after 1 season deserves all the derision they get. Absolutely scandalous.

I tell you what you find me a rider or team for whom there is almost universal love on here. Some are just more popular than others usually for justifiable reasons.

 

[Race Radio]

My friend was at one of those xterra mb tri races. They were standing in the water,ready for the start when all the competitors are whispering Lance look its Lance. My friend hears that walks over to Lance and says hey Lance hows it goin.
Lance eyeballs my friend up and down. Who is this competitor, Lance says to himself. Lance looks at my friend smiles and shakes his hand, no words said by Lance.
Class as always by Lance. Even as a 40 year old tri guy.

Was your friend named Flicker?

 

[Ulle Relaxes]

I tell you what you find me a rider or team for whom there is almost universal love on here. Some are just more popular than others usually for justifiable reasons.

Everybody loves Jan.

 

[The Plediadian]

I think like people who follow any sports, there will be athletes who are liked and disliked. In reference to all the people you listed, there are perfectly logical reasons for disliking them.

Personally havent heard P & P in years but I know that I would much rather have the Eurosports guys any day and they get criticised as well.

Cav, well Cav just comes across as a tool sometimes. Other than that nothing to dislike for me.

A.Schleck, seriously have you ever watched the guy race....that is when he actually does race and the whining. Jeez there are plenty of justifiable reasons to dislike Schleck.

Bob Roll, I cannot comment as I never see him.

Chris Horner, I think people dislike Horner coz he switched sides somewhere along the way and is perfroming way better at 40 than he was in his late 20s which is hard to believe.

Levi, I think people just find his style of racing boring. Wheelsuck most of the time and then win in the TT. Maybe not fair on him but when fans want to see an exciting spectacle, Levi is not the guy. That applies to a multiple of sports where people just dont like watching boring athletes or teams. Also like Horner, perfroming better coming near 40 than he was iin his prime years.

Bruyneel, Radioshack and Lance all go together so no explanation required.

As for Leopard, any team that comes into the sport at the top level and then just decides to dump half their team after 1 season deserves all the derision they get. Absolutely scandalous.

I tell you what you find me a rider or team for whom there is almost universal love on here. Some are just more popular than others usually for justifiable reasons.

I respect that. I did not support Leopard team, however, they created a new team, more jobs etc. Riis really irks me, so for Andy and Stuey to dis him at the Vuelta, I thought OK.
That they dropped out after one year, scandalous no, in this economy and since Schleck did not achieve goal understandable.

Bruyneel and shack/armstrong, well that is cycling, with all its excitement and all its blemishes. No matter how phil, paul and bob roll paint it. I never bought into them for a minute. Just entertainment, and they are that.

 

[pmcg76]

Everybody loves Jan.

Actually, that is a good one. I cant say I love Jan but I dont dislike him either. I think a big part of the reason people liked Jan was because he has flawed, he liked to party in the winter, put on some weight etc. I guess a lot of posters seen a bit of themselves in Jan. I think the fact that he never moaned or tried to blame others for anything made him seem humble which people mostly like.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My friend was at one of those xterra mb tri races. They were standing in the water,ready for the start when all the competitors are whispering Lance look its Lance. My friend hears that walks over to Lance and says hey Lance hows it goin.
Lance eyeballs my friend up and down. Who is this competitor, Lance says to himself. Lance looks at my friend smiles and shakes his hand, no words said by Lance.
Class as always by Lance. Even as a 40 year old tri guy.

As I said:

To be fair, as you have not named anyone then it can be difficult to know who or why they post.

But as a general observation, some posters post almost exclusively on threads relating to particular riders and as this is The Clinic, they are usually defending them. Nothing wrong with that at all - but they may lurk in many threads put only post on a few.

You can stop digging whenever you get tired.

 

[pmcg76]

I respect that. I did not support Leopard team, however, they created a new team, more jobs etc. Riis really irks me, so for Andy and Stuey to dis him at the Vuelta, I thought OK.
That they dropped out after one year, scandalous no, in this economy and since Schleck did not achieve goal understandable.

Bruyneel and shack/armstrong, well that is cycling, with all its excitement and all its blemishes. No matter how phil, paul and bob roll paint it. I never bought into them for a minute. Just entertainment, and they are that.

I disagree about Leopard, any team that enters the ProTour should have the finances to cover a team for a number of seasons. If Leopard were struggling that much, they should have got out altogether and their licence given to a team like Europcar of Cofidis who have been in the sport for over a decade. Just because things are not going as planned is not sufficent reason to abandon a project, I dont want to see it become a plaything for rich people who decide things on a whimsy.

 

[Velodude]

I think like people who follow any sports, there will be athletes who are liked and disliked. In reference to all the people you listed, there are perfectly logical reasons for disliking them.

Personally havent heard P & P in years but I know that I would much rather have the Eurosports guys any day and they get criticised as well.

Cav, well Cav just comes across as a tool sometimes. Other than that nothing to dislike for me.

A.Schleck, seriously have you ever watched the guy race....that is when he actually does race and the whining. Jeez there are plenty of justifiable reasons to dislike Schleck.

Bob Roll, I cannot comment as I never see him.

Chris Horner, I think people dislike Horner coz he switched sides somewhere along the way and is perfroming way better at 40 than he was in his late 20s which is hard to believe.

Levi, I think people just find his style of racing boring. Wheelsuck most of the time and then win in the TT. Maybe not fair on him but when fans want to see an exciting spectacle, Levi is not the guy. That applies to a multiple of sports where people just dont like watching boring athletes or teams. Also like Horner, perfroming better coming near 40 than he was iin his prime years.

Bruyneel, Radioshack and Lance all go together so no explanation required.

As for Leopard, any team that comes into the sport at the top level and then just decides to dump half their team after 1 season deserves all the derision they get. Absolutely scandalous.

I tell you what you find me a rider or team for whom there is almost universal love on here. Some are just more popular than others usually for justifiable reasons.

"Bob Roll, I cannot comment as I never see him"

Bob Roll's intervention saved Armstrong's career after he garaged the bike from failing in his post cancer comeback. From Wikipedia:

In 1998, Lance Armstrong was recovering from cancer and had dropped out of the Paris–Nice race. Armstrong's coach, Chris Carmichael, asked Roll to go to Boone, North Carolina, to ride with Armstrong for a few days.[1] Armstrong was discouraged by Europe and on the verge of retiring. Carmichael wanted him to do one more training session, with Roll. According to Roll, "Lance had probably never met a bike racer like me...a person who could still find some happiness in such misery. We had eight hours a day for eight days of riding in the pouring rain - rain in Biblical proportions! I think Lance would’ve turned things around even without that time in the Appalachia[n]s, but it was a pivotal time.

You can see Bob Roll, a cycling TV commentator, on this youtube video evidencing the close relationship to all things Armstrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGVOZ7PvbYI&feature=related

 

[The Plediadian]

I disagree about Leopard, any team that enters the ProTour should have the finances to cover a team for a number of seasons. If Leopard were struggling that much, they should have got out altogether and their licence given to a team like Europcar of Cofidis who have been in the sport for over a decade. Just because things are not going as planned is not sufficent reason to abandon a project, I dont want to see it become a plaything for rich people who decide things on a whimsy.

Leopard was a strange venture. With Becca, Trek and Mercedes as sponsors I thought they would be around for at least four years. I thought Becca would bankroll the team, 30 million euros per year? I think Becca counted on big wins by Cancellera, Schleck(s) to attract other sponsors. Didn't happen thusly the team folded. IMO.

 

[Berzin]

Why does it bother posters that people show concern over the topic of Lance Armstrong?

Does it make you feel better assuming that Lance haters have nothing else going on in their lives?

Even if this were true, again, why do you and others who bring this up care so much?

I for one just want to know the truth. You hear Armstrong fanboys say the dropping of charges is proof of vindication. No it's not. The whole charade is nothing but a cynical political ploy.

It was the only hand he could play, because certainly he would have been found to have been doping the whole time he said he rode clean. But he was able to play it and here we are.

He gets to keep lying to people and that's just fine. But we who are less than mused are the ones with the problem.

Yeah. Maybe some of you too should go ride your bike. I would say your morals and scruples are compromised.

 

[Anonymous]

If you want to discuss doping in the sport, this is the best place on the net, no matter how crazy it is.

But for general discussion and interest, there are other forums. Posting only here doesn't mean that posters aren't discussing cycling in general. They just aren't all doing it on CN.

^ this

and what raceradio said

 

[Mambo95]

There's a big difference between how the Clinic posters see themselves and how the rest of cycling sees them.

The regulars here see themselves as doing valuable work and forming opinion within cycling.

Elsewhere, they are see as obsessive cranks and this place is know as the Asylum.

Self awareness has never been a strong point of this forum.

 

[Race Radio]

Ahh yes, more insults from the peanut galley

Threads like this are just another version of the groupie phrase "You should go ride your bike" An attempt to diminish us and pretend we are not really interested in the sport.

Fact is I have been riding a bike for fun, competition, and passion since my very early teens. 30 years. I ride close to 10,000 miles a year. Saw my first Grand Tour live in 1983 and have been hooked ever since. Ridden and raced my bike all over the world, seen multiple stages of every GT plus the Worlds and most other majors races....some of them in a team car, some from the side of the road.

Some would prefer to pretend that guys like me do not know the sport. That we are just interested in scandal and gossip. I do jump into the race threads during the season but often find them a bit chaotic and clouded by fandom. Have to say I am looking forward to hanging out at Dim's new forum during the season. I can't wait for Het Volk!

I don't have a website, a blog, host chats, or sell advertising....but over 5000 people follow me on twitter because they share my interests. Some days that is means great photography or video, other days it is news, and then weeks like this it focuses on the toxic side of the sport.

While this part of the forum is often clouded by trolls it is one of the better places to get, and share, insight on a key part of the sport

 

[Ulle Relaxes]

The regulars here see themselves as doing valuable work and forming opinion within cycling.

You may be right. As of this post, there are only 106 signers of the White House petition - https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions?_escaped_fragment_=/petition/comment-lack-prosecution-lance-armstrong-despite-overwhelming-credible-evidence-crime-given-under/dBnnkGDr#!/petition/comment-lack-prosecution-lance-armstrong-despite-overwhelming-credible-evidence-crime-given-under/dBnnkGDr

Far less than I expected.

They really do believe they can change the world.

 

[The Plediadian]

Ahh yes, more insults from the peanut galley

Threads like this are just another version of the groupie phrase "You should go ride your bike" An attempt to diminish us and pretend we are not really interested in the sport.

Fact is I have been riding a bike for fun, competition, and passion since my very early teens. 30 years. I ride close to 10,000 miles a year. Saw my first Grand Tour live in 1983 and have been hooked ever since. Ridden and raced my bike all over the world, seen multiple stages of every GT plus the Worlds and most other majors races....some of them in a team car, some from the side of the road.

Some would prefer to pretend that guys like me do not know the sport. That we are just interested in scandal and gossip. I do jump into the race threads during the season but often find them a bit chaotic and clouded by fandom. Have to say I am looking forward to hanging out at Dim's new forum during the season. I can't wait for Het Volk!

I don't have a website, a blog, host chats, or sell advertising....but over 5000 people follow me on twitter because they share my interests. Some days that is means great photography or video, other days it is news, and then weeks like this it focuses on the toxic side of the sport.

While this part of the forum is often clouded by trolls it is one of the better places to get, and share, insight on a key part of the sport

Thank you for your laser-like focus Race Radio, you are and inspiration to all"true fans" of cycling.