CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

[King Boonen]

But your father-in-law, I take it, doesn't work for a cycling team. If i worked for any kind of pro sports team, in any kind of capacity, I would have a good working knowledge of the recent history of that sport. Maybe that's just me, but I can't see how you wouldn't, regardless of whether you were a fan or had any interest in who won or lost. It's just basic background.

The idea that any doctor working in sports medicine for over a decade wouldn't know that testosterone could be used for doping seems absolutely ridiculous to be honest. Not least because it would mean they could be prescribing banned substances to athletes, resulting in their suspension.

 

[samhocking]

The idea that any doctor working in sports medicine for over a decade wouldn't know that testosterone could be used for doping seems absolutely ridiculous to be honest. Not least because it would mean they could be prescribing banned substances to athletes, resulting in their suspension.

Well when he ordered it, he had been working in cycling for just 17 months, initially part time. If knowledgeable of Testosterone in cycling and doping with it, putting an order for Testogel on Sutton's expense account for UKAD to find Fit4Sports invoice just seems a weird conscious decision to me if really knowing it is wrong and you need to evade anti-doping with omerta. Who knows, I think the context of what was in private is missing from this part of the tribunal held in public. It going from private to public doesn't help clarity. Like Froomes motorbike story, it's clearly simply Sutton aware Jullich admitted doping as a rider from Armstrong investigation and Froome travelling between Italy & Porte with Jullich in Monaco to get coaching a little extreme perhaps. Froome then sold everything to move toMonaco to be coached with Porte by Jullich I believe anyway.

 

[King Boonen]

Well when he ordered it, he had been working in cycling for just 17 months, initially part time. If knowledgeable of Testosterone in cycling and doping with it, putting an order for Testogel on Sutton's expense account for UKAD to find Fit4Sports invoice just seems a weird conscious decision to me if really knowing it is wrong and you need to evade anti-doping with omerta. Who knows, I think the context of what was in private is missing from this part of the tribunal held in public. It going from private to public doesn't help clarity. Like Froomes motorbike story, it's clearly simply Sutton aware Jullich admitted doping as a rider from Armstrong investigation and Froome travelling between Italy & Porte with Jullich in Monaco to get coaching a little extreme perhaps. Froome then sold everything to move toMonaco to be coached with Porte by Jullich I believe anyway.

This addresses nothing in my post so I have no idea why you quoted it.

He's a doctor in sports medicine with over a decade of experience. I cannot, for a second, believe he did not know testosterone could be used as a PED. This implies he didn't know it was on the Prohibited List and would make him a massive liability in his position.

 

[fmk_RoI]

He's a doctor in sports medicine with over a decade of experience.

Keep having to say this: he's not the inexperienced naif we're being asked to believe he was, he himself claims to have introduced anti-doping to the FA, in European golf, in football at Bolton, to active riders at British Cycling.

 

[samhocking]

This addresses nothing in my post so I have no idea why you quoted it.

He's a doctor in sports medicine with over a decade of experience. I cannot, for a second, believe he did not know testosterone could be used as a PED. This implies he didn't know it was on the Prohibited List and would make him a massive liability in his position.

I'm pretty sure he knows it's prohibited even before entering cycling from Ben Johnson etc. What doesn't align with an assumption he knew it was a PED, knew it was prohibited, knew it needed to be hidden due to knowing/believing it being for a rider is then ordering it from licenced medical wholesaler, putting it on Suttons expense account, leaving a paper trail on Fit4Sports & BCs accounts and even having it itemised on an invoice UKAD can then find just leaves more questions than not that's all. You can order Testogel in several more discreet ways. The most obvious method online or across at ASDA with a fake prescription paid in cash.

 

[fmk_RoI]

On the one hand: he's too dumb to have known that testosterone was a PED
On the other hand: he's too intelligent to have left a paper trail.

QED: it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

 

[King Boonen]

I'm pretty sure he knows it's prohibited even before entering cycling from Ben Johnson etc. What doesn't align with an assumption he knew it was a PED, knew it was prohibited, knew it needed to be hidden due to knowing/believing it being for a rider is then ordering it from licenced medical wholesaler, putting it on Suttons expense account, leaving a paper trail on Fit4Sports & BCs accounts and even having it itemised on an invoice UKAD can then find just leaves more questions than not that's all. You can order Testogel in several more discreet ways. The most obvious method online or across at ASDA with a fake prescription paid in cash.

Again, this has very little to do with what I posted. I've not made any assumptions about his ordering of potential doping products and whether he would attempt to hide that or not. Please do not quote my posts if your post is not related.

On the one hand: he's too dumb to have known that testosterone was a PED
On the other hand: he's too intelligent to have left a paper trail.

QED: it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

It could be that he's trying to get out on a technicality. Going from what is in the Sky article you posted, maybe he's trying to claim that he didn't know testosterone is specifically used to dope cyclists, because he's never read/heard anything to show that. I'd find it very hard to believe, he'd have to be purposefully choosing not to educate himself, and the questions seems to have be could, which would mean any knowledge of any possible doping or enhancing effects of testosterone on athletes would be enough, but maybe that's what's going on.

As it's currently being reported, I don't see why anyone would believe what he's saying.

 

[King Boonen]

Keep having to say this: he's not the inexperienced naif we're being asked to believe he was, he himself claims to have introduced anti-doping to the FA, in European golf, in football at Bolton, to active riders at British Cycling.

I wasn't aware of those claims (I did read your previous post that made me aware of them). It makes his reported testimony in that article even more suspect.

 

[samhocking]

Again, this has very little to do with what I posted. I've not made any assumptions about his ordering of potential doping products and whether he would attempt to hide that or not. Please don not quote my posts if your post is not related.

I'm not saying it is, simply widening the lense onto the context re. the ordering itself knowing or not knowing it's a PED while knowing it's for a rider or for Sutton and the paper trail created unnecessarily either way.

 

[King Boonen]

I'm not saying it is, simply widening the lense onto the context re. the ordering itself knowing or not knowing it's a PED while knowing it's for a rider or for Sutton.

Then don't quote the post, especially when you detail problems with an assumption I didn't make. Quote the post that makes that assumption.

 

[gillan1969]

Julich's response is brilliant...too much info mate .......

 

[BlueRoads]

Everytime I think this trial cannot get more ridiculous, it does.

 

[samhocking]

Then don't quote the post, especially when you detail problems with an assumption I didn't make. Quote the post that makes that assumption.

Fine, but I was addressing your belief Freeman's claim is ridiculous by surrounding that with the actual order trail. Without context nearly everything could be seen as ridiculous, we don't agree, but it's only a forum and you can click ignore rather than keep replying after all.

 

[King Boonen]

Fine, but I was addressing your belief Freeman's claim is ridiculous by surrounding that with the actual order trail. Without context nearly everything could be seen as ridiculous, we don't agree, but it's only a forum and you can click ignore rather than keep replying after all.

If you invent a strawman argument I'm going to reply, becuase users in the past have used their own strawmen arguments as evidence that something is correct. If it isn't a strawman, and as you claim it's an assumption then you should be able to show where it's come from, please show the source. Here is Freeman's claim, from the article FmK posted:

At his fitness-to-practice hearing, Dr Freeman was asked by tribunal chair Mr Neil Dalton about the drug culture within cycling in 2011 and whether the medic would have known testosterone could be used to boost performance. "No, I wouldn't have, really," he told a Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service on the final day of his cross-examination that has stretched into a seventh week. "I'm not a cycling fan, I'm a doctor in sports medicine. We [the team] were focused on managing athletes and there was this mantra that we were a clean team and it was never discussed."

It doesn't need you to reframe anything. He claims he wouldn't have known testosterone could be used to dope cyclists. That is the claim I think is ridiculous. The only framing required is Freeman's background in sports medicine, which has been supplied and can easily be referenced. I've pointed out I'm basing this on the article, so a transcript showing this a misrepresentation would be fine and would actually further the discussion.

 

[samhocking]

I didn't invent anything, it's all been said in the tribunal re. the order and paper trail, so certainly no strawman argument, I'm just not agreeing with your belief Freeman's words (probably taken out of context by Lawton anyway) must be be ridiculous based on the fact the order is so very visible and recorded, it really is almost like he didn't think he was actually doing anything wrong until Burt intercepted it and took it to Peters. If we now assume, it really was for Sutton, Freeman's lack of evasive measures to hide his ordering might mean it really wasn't for an athlete. It's just an opposing view, I'm not quoting you to create strawman arguments whatsoever, you even say this is your belief, so...this is mine!

 

[King Boonen]

I really don't see why the order trail is relevant to this discussion, it's a separate discussion. It has nothing to do with whether this claim is ridiculous based on Freeman's past experience:

At his fitness-to-practice hearing, Dr Freeman was asked by tribunal chair Mr Neil Dalton about the drug culture within cycling in 2011 and whether the medic would have known testosterone could be used to boost performance. "No, I wouldn't have, really," he told a Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service on the final day of his cross-examination that has stretched into a seventh week. "I'm not a cycling fan, I'm a doctor in sports medicine. We [the team] were focused on managing athletes and there was this mantra that we were a clean team and it was never discussed."

Do you think Freemen would not have known testosterone could be used to dope cyclists?

 

[fmk_RoI]

KB: could I just stress that, contrary to the false claims of others, that quote of the tribunal chair asking Freeman about testosterone comes from PA reporting of the tribunal, not Matt Lawton. Among the media outlets to use the PA report is the Guardian. Matt Lawton - the chief architect of this whole calumny for some, so you can perhaps understand why they would seek to falsely attribute things to him - works for the Times.

 

[King Boonen]

KB: could I just stress that, contrary to the false claims of others, that quote of the tribunal chair asking Freeman about testosterone comes from PA reporting of the tribunal, not Matt Lawton. Among the media outlets to use the PA report is the Guardian. Matt Lawton - the chief architect of this whole calumny for some, so you can perhaps understand why they would seek to falsely attribute things to him - works for the Times.

Thanks. I'm happy to take that quote at face value unless someone can show it's been taken out of context. I'm unsure if any transcript is available at the moment, and don't have time to dig into it, but I'm planning to look when it's available/I do have time. If it's accurate, I don't see how anyone could believe anything else Freeman is saying.

 

[samhocking]

PA is still only being given the public discussion of the day, they don't include what was discussed in private just before they then continue in public. That's all I mean by context. I'd say over 50% of the tribunal time has been in private in and out of public viewing continually.

Anyway sounds like GMC have told the press they are unlikely to finish the tribunal this year, so until next year lol!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Freeman suffering from PTSD?

Dr Richard Freeman may have been left with post-traumatic stress disorder following Shane Sutton’s outburst at his fitness-to-practise tribunal last November, a psychiatrist told the hearing on Wednesday. Prof Don Grubin added that the long-running saga, which is set to run into a third year, was having a severe effect on Freeman’s mental health.

On the one hand, this looks like yet more theatrics from Freeman's QC, on the other hand we have to remember there's a real human being at the centre of this case, with real problems. So, pause before you make up your mind.

The QC, though, may have scored an OG:

On the penultimate day of this hearing window, Grubin was questioned by Dr Freeman’s QC, Mary O’Rourke, over the circumstances that led her client to order the testosterone. Freeman’s evidence is that he did not order the drugs until some weeks after Sutton allegedly bullied him. Grubin said he did not think bullying was likely to have been “the trigger” for Freeman’s actions. “He withstood that,” Grubin said. “Then something happened some weeks later that led to him prescribing it. My view is that it’s a stretch to say the bullying that took place some weeks before was the trigger for it.” Grubin also disagreed with another psychiatrist, Dr Max Henderson, who told the tribunal last week that the doctor’s bipolar disorder made him especially vulnerable. Grubin said he believed Freeman may have been in a hypomanic episode, which led him to behave “impetuously” and exercise “poor judgment”.

 

[samhocking]

Grubin is effectively GMC's expert witness FMK, clearly he won't completely agree with Henderson, but like Grubin, Henderson also concluded there was no single event of bullying that triggered the order being placed, so really just debating an opinion on why the order was placed at all. Interestingly Grubin does say he believed Freeman wanted to fit into BCs culture of prescribing to staff members and like Henderson, afaik hasn't opinionated the order not being for Sutton either.

"My view is that it's a stretch to say the bullying that took place some weeks before was the trigger for it."

Professor Grubin then described the factors that would have led to Dr Freeman's decision to place the order.

"There's the general atmosphere around prescribing in the team. When he came in it was just accepted you would prescribe for staff, for family. He carried on with that.

"There's his mental state. He also talked about his desire to fit in. And then of course there was the more general relationship between him and Shane Sutton. So all of that would combine. What I don't see is that the fact he had been bullied was a final contributor."

 

[fmk_RoI]

The MPTS are proud to announce that the Freeman Show has been recommissioned and will be back on your screens in the new year:

The tribunal will reconvene on January 22 and will sit again from January 25-27, in order to complete the 'facts' stage of the process, where Freeman and his defence team dispute the allegations tabled by the GMC.

The tribunal is expected to deliver a decision on the facts on March 2. After that, the hearing will move to the 'impairment' phase, where the doctor's fitness to practice is assessed in light of the findings. Both sides can still call witnesses at this stage before the process concludes with a decision regarding any punishment.

The tribunal will reconvene for this for three days from March 17-19, before another four-day session six weeks later, from May 4-7.

In theory, that will bring the process to an end, but it has sailed past every deadline set so far, and more twists and turns can't be ruled out.

That's all folks!

 

[samhocking]

At least East Lancs get a GP back to work over Xmas and they managed to shuffle out October discussed earlier this week.

 

[70kmph]

Terrible for Sky. now Sutton is implicated in doping
They were employing a list of dirty people experienced in performance enhancing
Leinders, Sutton, Julich, Siutsou then Freeman orders some Gels

 

[fmk_RoI]

Terrible for Sky. now Sutton is implicated in doping

Now? It's hardly been a secret, just revealed.