Cobbles in le Tour

[Tank Engine]

There are always half a dozen mountain stages, so the winner will always have to be an excellent climber. We get one stage with cobbles every few years. It's obviously popular with the spectators. It tests out and rewards other skills.

Riders always crash in the first week of a race. Froome's injury initially came from a freak crash on a normal road in normal weather on the previous day. Everyone else finished Stage 5. Would he have finished if he hadn't been facing the cobbles? A hypothetical question.

Terpstra and Cancellara say that cobbles have no place in the tour. Well, Valverde seemed to have enjoyed himself, also with Super G, who probably had more reasons to complain than Spartacus.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Next time they have a Dutch start, maybe they could have a stage using some hellingen in Belgium on the way down - doesn't even need to finish in Flanders or anything. The classic Flandrian climbs could lead to a stage finish somewhere like Ath, Lessines, Péruwelz or Tournai; a nice chance to make Mont-St-Laurent the last cobbled climb, since its Walloon location makes it a less used climb in the Classics. Alternatively, perhaps better, a stage finishing somewhere like Waterloo, Braine l'Alleud or Nivelles (or even Bruxelles) could use some of the cobbled climbs to the south of Brussels that are less well known but could still be very useful - just to keep things varied.

The rain obviously helps matters as it helps to create real hard men's days; this is naturally more likely to be seen at the Giro because of the time of year that the Tour is in and because of the general climate of much of Spain in September; legendary bad weather days like Angliru 2002 are far less frequent than the Giro equivalents.

That said, I would love to see Mont Cassel host a genuine Tour finish, and there are some nice small cobbled ascents near Paris as well, occasionally seen in Paris-Nice - for example the one in Montfort-l'Amaury used in the 2010 prologue, or the climb through Neauphle-le-Château. One year they really ought to have a penultimate stage be a really tough rouleur stage with dozens of cat.4 climbs through the places like Chevreuse, Orsay and Plaisir.

 

[Broth3r]

I have to repeat what I said yesterday. The Tour should be about the best all-round racer, not the best climber on MTFs. So I think more often than not the Tour should include some cobbles. It also should have more TT's and longer TT distances (during the Mig years they were close to 200km total each year). I also like to see a couple dirt passes every so often.

Look at it this way, let's say we had a GT with a few TT's that combined were over 200km, plus 2 cobble stages, 2 MTF's and 2 non-MTF mountain stages. Would it be so wrong if Cancellara or Sagan were up by 5+ minutes heading into the mountains? What if it were over 10 minutes ahead of the likes of Contador or Nibali? They'd still very likely lose if it were double that. Is that such a bad Tour? We need to stop thinking the Tour is about who can drop each other in the last few KM of a couple mountain stages.

I agree with the need for more stage variety. However, I do have one caveat. What defines road cycling for me is the road obstacles. There's no mountains or cobbles on a track. So I really can't say I agree with more ITT kms, or knocking back mountain stages to a miserable four. The winner of the Tour should be a well-rounded rider, but I'm quite okay with climbing being the core discipline. A single ITT or cobbled stage can shave minutes off an unready GC contender anyway, as is well known. I would add variety in road difficulties, not in its presence or absence.

Also, I think there's a consensus the final-MTF-km's deal stems from races controlled by overtly powerful trains and poor stage design that fails to combat it, and not an intrinsic issue of MTFs.

On the other hand, though, I have been musing this idea of a Tour with the regular number of flat stages, but with every single one of them running by the coast or known crosswind locations. Wonder how that'd work out.

 

[pigoonse]

This discussion is an interesting one and is going on in the Alberto Contador thread - which made me curious to read some of the great posts on the subject.

Appears the consensus was cobbles yes, but not every year. Wondering if any experts had changed their opinion...

 

[Kwibus]

There are always half a dozen mountain stages, so the winner will always have to be an excellent climber. We get one stage with cobbles every few years. It's obviously popular with the spectators. It tests out and rewards other skills.

Riders always crash in the first week of a race. Froome's injury initially came from a freak crash on a normal road in normal weather on the previous day. Everyone else finished Stage 5. Would he have finished if he hadn't been facing the cobbles? A hypothetical question.

Terpstra and Cancellara say that cobbles have no place in the tour. Well, Valverde seemed to have enjoyed himself, also with Super G, who probably had more reasons to complain than Spartacus.

Terpstra and Cancellara underperformed during the cobbled TdF stage and thus had a bad time on the bike. Both are born whiners so we shouldn't even discuss their opinions other then laughing at them.
Worse was Cancellara who was saying before the cobbled stage "I'm not whining about the mountains while it's not my terrain am I?" and then after the stage he was crying and saying that he sucks on wet cobbles and they shouldnt be part of a GT...

Every time I think about it it winds me up again

On topic.
I agree with the Hitch, if they are passing the north of France then definately race the cobbles, but that should be with every terrain. Just like we should have hilly stage when possible or windy stages when possible. Use the terrain that's out there.
Either way a GT course should be diverse, specially the big TdF. There should be enough TT kms and there should be a short and a long mountain stage, a single MTF, a descent finish etc.

2014 had one of the best designs in years, but unfortunately the race got killed by the departure of the 2 big favourites and nobody else to challenge Nibali. Only in my dreams Contador and Froome would still be there. Together with NIbali it would've been an very intense TdF for sure.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Appears the consensus was cobbles yes, but not every year.

this is my opinion, and when they are included I just pray to the cycling gods for no rain and no crashes

I hate cobbles in the TDF, it will always be my opinion that sending a peloton with 80 climbers onto the cobbles is just asking for trouble and I hate to see a favorite for the overall lose out because of bad luck, but I understand that some people like them and they can't be completely ignored.

 

[Pricey_sky]

I'm happy for the cobbles to feature every 3-4 years, a GT should be about variation. I also believe there should be a sprinters worlds every few years too for the same reason of variation and fairness.

 

[pigoonse]

Terpstra and Cancellara underperformed during the cobbled TdF stage and thus had a bad time on the bike. Both are born whiners so we shouldn't even discuss their opinions other then laughing at them.
Worse was Cancellara who was saying before the cobbled stage "I'm not whining about the mountains while it's not my terrain am I?" and then after the stage he was crying and saying that he sucks on wet cobbles and they shouldnt be part of a GT...

Every time I think about it it winds me up again

On topic.
I agree with the Hitch, if they are passing the north of France then definately race the cobbles, but that should be with every terrain. Just like we should have hilly stage when possible or windy stages when possible. Use the terrain that's out there.
Either way a GT course should be diverse, specially the big TdF. There should be enough TT kms and there should be a short and a long mountain stage, a single MTF, a descent finish etc.

2014 had one of the best designs in years, but unfortunately the race got killed by the departure of the 2 big favourites and nobody else to challenge Nibali. Only in my dreams Contador and Froome would still be there. Together with NIbali it would've been an very intense TdF for sure.

Pretty much agree with every point you make. I'd like to see the cobbles included in le Tour every year but that is my unexperienced opinion. I am only just discovering that I can watch the spring season of road cycling the past 3-4 years and it has become my favorite part of the season, along with the Giro d italia.

As far as the competition at TdF this year, yeah I was hoping for the big fireworks between Contador, Froome, and Nibs in the mountains too. But I disagree with discrediting Nibali's win (but that is an entirely different topic from including cobbles in GT's - I don't mean to go there! )

 

[pigoonse]

this is my opinion, and when they are included I just pray to the cycling gods for no rain and no crashes

I hate cobbles in the TDF, it will always be my opinion that sending a peloton with 80 climbers onto the cobbles is just asking for trouble and I hate to see a favorite for the overall lose out because of bad luck, but I understand that some people like them and they can't be completely ignored.

I respect your opinion, LaFlo, fair point about cobbles and asking for trouble during the nervous 1st week of TdF and it is something to think about. Not sure I agree right now, though. Seems the best GT rider should be able to rise to the occasion and no be undone by the challenge. And luck does play its part on any stage. Rain is part of the elements - road cycling is a dangerous sport - can't be helped.

What I really liked about TdF 2014 was the first week - had not found a GT first week as interesting before - have to give stage 5 a lot of credit.

 

[Angliru]

I know it's the same race promoter but it's very telling that Bore needs to steal Paris-Roubaix's cobbles to get a little bit entertaining.

Cobbles belong to Paris-Roubaix, period. Worst of all is that there are dozens of sections that Paris-Roubaix leaves aside but all the sections of that stage were Paris-Roubaix sections.

The greatness of a Paris-Roubaix is its rarety. Once in a year. Plus a handful of kermess races, that's fine. Too many cobbles kill the cobbles.


I'm against it but of course not for the same reasons as others, of course. When I see all those fanboys whining because it's too inhuman etc of course it kind of makes me advocate for it but I have to stick to my principles !

..and when you see the gaps on such a small part of it, you understand that the full thing is the hardest race that there is !

Cobbles don't belong to PR. It is a part of the European landscape and thus is included in all sorts of races. Paris-Roubaix just so happens to be the race that is most closely identified with cobbles. If a grand tour organizer chooses to include them it is their option, and undoubtedly been so since the sport's inception. Grand tours are meant to grand events where every type of cyclist has an opportunity to find a stage that suits them (ideally). The cobble specialists probably have the fewest opportunities of anyone.

 

[Sciocco]

I would like to see cobbles in every GT, every year. Just have a little variance in the amount of cobbles and it is fine. Add in some dirt roads too please, maybe some gravel even. I think two or three stages per GT that involve road surface other than tarmac/concrete would be best.

 

[cineteq]

96% agree there should be cobbles at least from time to time in the TdF. Brilliant!

 

[nhowson]

I'm happy for the cobbles to feature every 3-4 years, a GT should be about variation. I also believe there should be a sprinters worlds every few years too for the same reason of variation and fairness.

Can we have a pure climbers worlds sometime then?

 

[Pricey_sky]

Can we have a pure climbers worlds sometime then?

Yes absolutely, I'd say every 4-5 years there should be 1 flat, 1 mountainous (probably couldn't do much of a circuit with this), and then the other years hilly like the last few have been.

 

[42x16ss]

Can we have a pure climbers worlds sometime then?

Like last years?

 

[Pricey_sky]

Like last years?

I wouldn't even call last year a pure climbers route, if guys like Simon Clarke, Gilbert and Cancellara can finish just 30 seconds down.

 

[nhowson]

Like last years?

If we're going for the 5 years thing, then it would be the second most difficult of a five year cycle.

Back on track, this also raises the question of whether there should be cobbles in the Worlds. Richmond cobbles are tame I know, but add rain and then it only takes the one rider to slip.

 

[LaFlorecita]

If we're going for the 5 years thing, then it would be the second most difficult of a five year cycle.

Back on track, this also raises the question of whether there should be cobbles in the Worlds. Richmond cobbles are tame I know, but add rain and then it only takes the one rider to slip.

Yes, but I hope you can see the difference between a GT peloton and a peloton that is going to ride a flat worlds course with cobbled segments.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

I hate cobbles in the TDF, it will always be my opinion that sending a peloton with 80 climbers onto the cobbles is just asking for trouble and I hate to see a favorite for the overall lose out because of bad luck, but I understand that some people like them and they can't be completely ignored.

Did we actually get trouble though? We basically had the worst case scenario; wet cobbles, but I don't remember any major crashes, except Froome before the first cobbled section even started. Contador & co. lost time to Nibali, not because of bad luck, but because they weren't good enough that day.

It's just a shame Contador crashed out in the mountains, because otherwise we would have had an extremely epic GT, with Contador being forced to ride aggressively to win back that time on Nibali!

 

[seldon71]

Was thinking that maybe cobbles (bad roads) should come LATER in the race with a reduced peloton and more clarified situation in the race.

It would be a total change of tradition, but would be interesting to see a Tour which would :

1) Start at the foot of Pyrenees and head to the mountains around Day 3 for MAX. 3 mountain-days...

2) Then ride up along Atlantic Coast with at least 2 days planned for serious echelons if wind co-operates.

3) Hit the tip of Bretagne for a serious hard men day of Tro-Bro Leon (dirt, gravel & cobblestones). Distance of 200+ km and minimum 25 km of "tough" road. This would probably be Day 9 ie. last day before the rest!

4) Go West-East over France via Massif Central for some hilly/mid-mountain days in addition to sprints and probable ITT. Super-Besse may not be much of a mountain, but at mid-race it could be highly interesting opportunity for attacking riding.

5) Arrive on Alps by last Tuesday and play it out for a week!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Did we actually get trouble though? We basically had the worst case scenario; wet cobbles, but I don't remember any major crashes, except Froome before the first cobbled section even started.

Yes, but in 2010 Frankie crashed out

Contador & co. lost time to Nibali, not because of bad luck, but because they weren't good enough that day.

I'd say they lost time because they were too far back on the second segment and because they were being careful.

It's just a shame Contador crashed out in the mountains, because otherwise we would have had an extremely epic GT, with Contador being forced to ride aggressively to win back that time on Nibali!

Yes, and then he would have likely lost by 20-30s and I would have killed a puppy and started an anti-cobbles movement by now

 

[Mellow Velo]

Yes, but in 2010 Frankie crashed out


I'd say they lost time because they were too far back on the second segment and because they were being careful.

Yes, and then he would have likely lost by 20-30s and I would have killed a puppy and started an anti-cobbles movement by now

Instead of only riding races he thinks he can win, he should do what Valverde did this year.
Go get some experience at a couple of those cold, early season cobbles races,
It isn't always about what you like to do, but what you need to do.

Anybody who didn't enjoy the spectacle of the Tour's stage 5 had a different reason for watching than the normal, avid cycling fan.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Instead of only riding races he thinks he can win, he should do what Valverde did this year.
Go get some experience at a couple of those cold, early season cobbles races,
It isn't always about what you like to do, but what you need to do.

And racing those early season cobbles races helped Valverde... how, exactly?

Contador should just continue racing the races he can win, duh, a 160th place at Dwars door Vlaanderen won't add anything to his palmares

Anybody who didn't enjoy the spectacle of the Tour's stage 5 had a different reason for watching than the normal, avid cycling fan.

I hated it, for reasons I stated above (and the fact that I dislike Boom and Nibali).

 

[pigoonse]

I hated it, for reasons I stated above (and the fact that I dislike Boom and Nibali).

LaFlo, I've read enough of your posts to get why your opinion is aggressively anti-Nibs. But why the dislike for Boom? Asking sincerely, I don't know much about him and he appears deserving enough...

 

[LaFlorecita]

LaFlo, I've read enough of your posts to get why your opinion is aggressively anti-Nibs. But why the dislike for Boom? Asking sincerely, I don't know much about him and he appears deserving enough...

Boom is quite arrogant. Does not come across as a nice guy.