Cobo Talk Only

[Mambo95]

Cobo - faster up Angliru than Heras in 2002

I guess that also means I am interested in the medication for blood parasites too...

The time mentioned in this thread was calculated by someone based on the timing of messages on the CN live ticker, so I wouldn't put too much trust in it.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It really is like watching pro wrestling. The only thing missing were the wacky costumes, chair throwing, and an audience of Walmart shoppers.

Well, why in the world you have a Telekom-Rider in your avatar then? Why are you watching?

I enjoyed it. The crazy fans, the suffering, the gaps... great racing.

And yes i live in the real world. So, sure Cobo Acebo dopes again, especially under a real creep like Gianetti. But no way this was wrestling. It was true suffering like in the golden 80s, and the fans were allowed to be close. Not like in these Alpe cages nowadays.

 

[Swede1]

Ok so Cobo rode for a team that has a dirty past. So did Contador and he doesnt get as much hate as Cobo. Csc doesnt exactly have a brilliant past with Basso, and frank having some issues, yet the schlecks dont get much hate. Then Cobo does an awesome ride and gets criticized. Theres an equal chance that all of the top guys are on the juice and its just a question of who trained the hardest. Most likely if Cobo is doping then so are all the other top riders.

BTW why isnt Froome getting as much hate as Cobo. Cobo at least has experience in GT's and is known as being a good climber. Froome has never been this good before, and yet he doesnt get criticized as much.

 

[hrotha]

You think so? There was a blurb in Cycle Sport Magazine years ago about how far and how fast the average hematocrit levels of Italian amateurs rose over the course of a few years.

Why would it be any different in Spain, where access to PED's and testing protocols at races like the Vuelta have been generally so relaxed?

If the Vuelta can't get it right, how do you think that trickles down to lesser pro races and the amateur scene, especially with guys like del Moral running athletic programs and Dr. Fuentes caught yet again in a doping scandal?

I'm sorry, you must be under the mistaken impression that I'm saying amateur cycling in Spain is clean and you're completely ignoring what I actually said.

 

[GotDropped]

I'm far from thinking that, but amateur results are pretty much the only measuring stick we have. At least amateur riders are less likely to have perfect programs.

Hey, it's Spain we're talking about. I rode for a couple of years in Spanish amateur teams and during those two years won a few races, and placed in many (including week long tours) and NEVER once had a drug test while in Spain! Never, in two years! And believe me... it wasn't a clean time in Spain, and aparently it got worse in the preceeding years after I left the sport, when Cobo was U23.

 

[joe_papp]

I'm far from thinking that, but amateur results are pretty much the only measuring stick we have. At least amateur riders are less likely to have perfect programs.

You think so? There was a blurb in Cycle Sport Magazine years ago about how far and how fast the average hematocrit levels of Italian amateurs rose over the course of a few years...

Your program doesn't need to be perfect for it to still be considered doping.

And my experience over the past five years has led me to believe that at least 70% if not more of the positives result from targeted testing ordered on the basis of intel developed independently, or provided by disgruntled associates or ex-associates of the evil-doer.

Cobo rides in the style of one who IS on a perfect program, however, and his past associations and present revival certainly don't inspire one to think that his return to form is natural.

As an aside, if Wiggins hasn't been doping I wish he'd start b/c I'd really like to have seen him win.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Again, if you are happy to give as much support to Ricco, Landis, Cobo et al as to those who have had no concrete suspicions of doping laid at their door, then fair enough. Again, we must agree to disagree on the level of respect we should afford to riders who are proven to have cheated their competitors, the race and the public.

*provisional results only, subject to change

Please let me know where these "concrete suspicions of doping" regarding Cobo are. What is a "concrete suspicion"? Isn't that an oxymoron, since if a suspicion is concrete surely it's proof? There is no actual proof that Cobo has doped at any point, but it's very hard not to draw that conclusion from looking at his team associations and performance history.

But in the official books? He's as clean as Wiggins or Froome or Mollema or Poels.

OK Cobo - almost as fast up the Angliru as Contador in 2008...

It's a fast time.

I'm pretty amazed at Wiggo's time tbh but at least he cracked properly at the end.

Cobo, faster than Valverde, Rodríguez and Leipheimer.

Poels, Menchov and Froome were faster than Sastre and Mosquera too. Menchov could certainly have gone faster, but the other two are interesting.

However, the times are unofficial and this year's stage to Anglirú was easier than 2008's.

 

[Winterfold]

The time mentioned in this thread was calculated by someone based on the timing of messages on the CN live ticker, so I wouldn't put too much trust in it.

Let's hope the real time is more plausible then

Anyone got an accurate time?

Libertine makes a fair point about the stage beforehand, but something smells here.

I hope I'm wrong - the Tour had been reassuring ( for a naive fool )

 

[Maxiton]

You think so? There was a blurb in Cycle Sport Magazine years ago about how far and how fast the average hematocrit levels of Italian amateurs rose over the course of a few years.

Why would it be any different in Spain, where access to PED's and testing protocols at races like the Vuelta have been generally so relaxed?

If the Vuelta can't get it right, how do you think that trickles down to lesser pro races and the amateur scene, especially with guys like del Moral running athletic programs and Dr. Fuentes caught yet again in a doping scandal?

That's exactly the problem, though, isn't it? By going light on the testing and letting that be known; by, in other words, giving tacit approval and even encouragement to doping, the Vuelta organizers think they have gotten it right. They think this - a known doper driving up the hideous climb and dropping superior riders without even so much as a grimace - is what we want to see. They think most fans will see this spectacle and love it.

Well, why in the world you have a Telekom-Rider in your avatar then? Why are you watching?

I enjoyed it. The crazy fans, the suffering, the gaps... great racing.

And yes i live in the real world. So, sure Cobo Acebo dopes again, especially under a real creep like Gianetti. But no way this was wrestling. It was true suffering like in the golden 80s, and the fans were allowed to be close. Not like in these Alpe cages nowadays.

Maybe the Vuelta organizers are right, and we the fans really are all idiots. What say you, fellow idiots?

 

[luckyboy]

They think this - a known doper driving up the hideous climb and dropping superior riders without even so much as a grimace - is what we want to see. They think most fans will have the same reaction as FoxxyBrown1111.

What proof is there that he is a known doper?

 

[Zoncolan]

I don't see Cobo's performance as being any more suspicious than that of Froome, Poels, Monfort...
He did look mighty comfortable though. Would be interesting to see what the power output was.

 

[hrotha]

That's exactly the problem, though, isn't it? By going light on the testing and letting that be known; by, in other words, giving tacit approval and even encouragement to doping, the Vuelta organizers think they have gotten it right. They think this - a known doper driving up the hideous climb and dropping superior riders without even so much as a grimace - is what we want to see. They think most fans will see this spectacle and love it.

Wait, what?

 

[roundabout]

Let's hope the real time is more plausible then

Anyone got an accurate time?

Libertine makes a fair point about the stage beforehand, but something smells here.

I hope I'm wrong - the Tour had been reassuring ( for a naive fool )

About 44 minutes flat for the whole climb. When I write about it's because the exact moment of the main group passing the sign indicating the start of the climb was missed.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

That's exactly the problem, though, isn't it? By going light on the testing and letting that be known; by, in other words, giving tacit approval and even encouragement to doping, the Vuelta organizers think they have gotten it right. They think this - a known doper driving up the hideous climb and dropping superior riders without even so much as a grimace - is what we want to see. They think most fans will see this spectacle and love it.



Maybe the Vuelta organizers are right, and we the fans really are all idiots. What say you, fellow idiots?

At least you may remove your avatar, that would be one idiot less.
I mean double standards look more dumb, don´t you think so?

 

[Fergoose]

Please let me know where these "concrete suspicions of doping" regarding Cobo are. What is a "concrete suspicion"? Isn't that an oxymoron, since if a suspicion is concrete surely it's proof? There is no actual proof that Cobo has doped at any point, but it's very hard not to draw that conclusion from looking at his team associations and performance history.

Very well, I can give you coherent, corroborated and consistent [suspicions] if you prefer to replace that word; the sentiment remains the same.

I can't prove Cobo has doped any more than I can prove that your next door neighbour isn't an extra terrestrial or that some of the moon isn't made of cheese. That in no way forms the basis for concluding that:

Theres an equal chance that all of the top guys are on the juice and its just a question of who trained the hardest. Most likely if Cobo is doping then so are all the other top riders.

The silver lining to the dreadful last 48hrs for cycling is that it shows just how complacent Mr McQuaid's "golden era" attitude is. Even if we don't get the positive test result to "prove" it.

 

[cromagnon]

What proof is there that he is a known doper?

He's got a foreign name (THREE OF THEM!), he must be a cheat.

 

[Maxiton]

What proof is there that he is a known doper?

OK, I overstated that, I'll admit. Let's say long suspected. I also agree that Froome and Wiggo are suspect.

It might seem absurd to say, but I think there is an art to doping. Put another way, if a great foul odor emanates from a rider's performance such that regular fans are wagging their heads, he's overdoing it. Much of this year's Tour de France is an example of how to do it right.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Very well, I can give you coherent, corroborated and consistent [suspicions] if you prefer to replace that word; the sentiment remains the same.

No, it doesn't. By saying something is concrete and equating him to Riccò and Landis, you are stating unequivocally that Cobo is a proven doper. Which he isn't.

I can't prove Cobo has doped any more than I can prove that your next door neighbour isn't an extra terrestrial or that some of the moon isn't made of cheese.

I always thought there was something weird about him...

 

[Fergoose]

No, it doesn't. By saying something is concrete and equating him to Riccò and Landis, you are stating unequivocally that Cobo is a proven doper. Which he isn't.

By using the word "suspicion" I clearly ain't. By using the word "sentiment", I'm meaning the intention of my post. Something that I think was and is abundantly clear.

 

[Scirea]

If you think Cobo is a more naturally talented athelete than Wiggins, Froome and the rest, that's up to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

So Froome sucked for years (seriously sucked, not just half-bad or something) and now he is a superior athlete compared to Cobo?

 

[Berzin]

I'm sorry, you must be under the mistaken impression that I'm saying amateur cycling in Spain is clean and you're completely ignoring what I actually said.

M point addressed what you said. Amateurs have organized doping programs just like the pros, especially in Italy.

As for what I know of the goings on in Spain, their main problem is actually sending samples to the lab. Many race organizers (if they are honest) will tell you the testing is too expensive, so they collect samples but only they know if they are actually tested or not.

This was part of the fiasco surrounding the Roberto Heras positive. His previous samples were never sent to the lab, and were only tested after he was caught that one time.

If it wasn't for that, he would have been eliminated from the race way before he got to the last stage, where he then thought he was home free.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

What proof is there that he is a known doper?

He's Spanish

Has a big nose.

Doesn't speak English.

Didn't discover weightloss before winning today.

Didn't suffer a disease before winning today.

Isn't Australian or British, nor does he ride for BMC, Garmin, Sky or HCT - all of whom are completely and utterly anti-doping teams and who would never ever, ever think about doping. None of their performances are ever suspicious so when someone beats them it must be because they are on drugs.

His dodgy DS is an Italian dodgy DS, which is different to those riders with dodgy German, Belgian, Danish or British DSs.

Clean riders normally have a chin that looks like an ****, or have ripped of their looks from ageing rockers, or look like an extra from Lord of the Rings.

Also, the new level playing field thanks to the biopassport means that the likes of Wiggins, Froome, Evans and Cavendish are able to compete and win clean, hence and therefore, when these clean riders are being beaten it must be because the riders who are winning are doped.

 

[ludwig]

Also, the new level playing field thanks to the biopassport means that the likes of wiggins, froome, evans and cavendish are able to compete and win clean, hence and therefore, when these clean riders are being beaten it must be because the riders who are winning are doped.

LOL. It's all so logical when you think about it. Spanish=doper, now i got it

 

[Libertine Seguros]

By using the word "suspicion" I clearly ain't. By using the word "sentiment", I'm meaning the intention of my post. Something that I think was and is abundantly clear.

So how are there "concrete" suspicions about Cobo and not about Froome? In terms of their performances, they've both produced something pretty ridiculous this last couple of weeks.

Cobo at least has history of doing it, but only at shady teams. Froome's come out of nowhere more than Mosquera in 2007, and we know how that fairytale ended.

 

[thehog]

Love it! Best thing I've read all day!!

He's Spanish

Has a big nose.

Doesn't speak English.

Didn't discover weightloss before winning today.

Didn't suffer a disease before winning today.

Isn't Australian or British, nor does he ride for BMC, Garmin, Sky or HCT - all of whom are completely and utterly anti-doping teams and who would never ever, ever think about doping. None of their performances are ever suspicious so when someone beats them it must be because they are on drugs.

His dodgy DS is an Italian dodgy DS, which is different to those riders with dodgy German, Belgian, Danish or British DSs.

Clean riders normally have a chin that looks like an ****, or have ripped of their looks from ageing rockers, or look like an extra from Lord of the Rings.

Also, the new level playing field thanks to the biopassport means that the likes of Wiggins, Froome, Evans and Cavendish are able to compete and win clean, hence and therefore, when these clean riders are being beaten it must be because the riders who are winning are doped.