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Confidentiality/cover-up confirmed?

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Jul 7, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
People will still race bikes competitively. Fans of cycling will still watch that even if it isn't on TV. So we should just quit testing for PED's so you can watch drugged out pros on TV. You will have to excuse me if I don't find your argument compelling.

I am not sure what you thought I was arguing, all I am saying is there has been a lot of discussion on details of the case, but there hasn't been a lot of discussion about what effect this case will have on cycling. Whether he goes down or not, there will be a huge backlash. Whether or not the UCI's corruption is exposed also has a huge effect and I think it is worth discussing.

goggalor said:
Meh. Who cares about Saxo Bank? Cycling doesn't need Bjarne Riis. If pro cycling burning to the ground meant getting rid of the UCI and corrupt liars like McQuaid, then it would be a good thing. As TFF said, people will still race bikes. And fast too. And the fastest will still get paid, somehow, because bike companies want to sell bikes, and clothing companies want to sell clothes. And fans will still follow the sport, somehow, even if not in HD.

I know there will still be racing, and good racing at that. But, there is nothing wrong with being disappointed at the prospect of having to watch on some sketchy internet feed instead of watching on a nice tv, that has easy recording capabilities.

Doping cases hurt the fans and I think that is of note
 

DAOTEC

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Chinese Radioshack-rider Fuyu Li mocro dose Glenb. 2 years suspended and ruined for life ....


Why ?


This isn't Braniac Mc.Fat-Pat these are also human beings ...

WADA is absolutely clear in Glenb and Bordry is right !

This is the coverup of the century ... Hein couldn't have done a better job !
 
Jul 10, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
How would you feel if you lost your job for a positive for marijuna and then found that another employee got off for the same offence?

If (and its a big IF) Contadors story is true - then it may seem harsh, but he is responsible for what he takes and he can try for a "no fault or negligence" reduction.
Re-writing the rules for one athlete is disgraceful.

LA got off, why not AC?? I think is is very minor compared to the behind scenes "investigations" between LA and UCI.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
And if it is accurate and WADA has found past discrepancies in AC's tests, this completely shoots a hole in JW's assertion that he'd seen AC's biopassport and it was "impeccable".

Have you got the exact quote? I have tried googling but not come up with anything that fits that? Also, when did JV see it? I know it would have been last year but we dont know the date of AC's apparently dodgy readings.
 

DAOTEC

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bettiniphoto_0003871_1_full_600.jpg

Team+Asanta+Training+Camp+0X57WphH8tsl.jpg

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2 PAC'S
 
Oct 16, 2009
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sometriguy said:
I am not sure what you thought I was arguing, all I am saying is there has been a lot of discussion on details of the case, but there hasn't been a lot of discussion about what effect this case will have on cycling. Whether he goes down or not, there will be a huge backlash. Whether or not the UCI's corruption is exposed also has a huge effect and I think it is worth discussing.



I know there will still be racing, and good racing at that. But, there is nothing wrong with being disappointed at the prospect of having to watch on some sketchy internet feed instead of watching on a nice tv, that has easy recording capabilities.

Doping cases hurt the fans and I think that is of note
Well I already watch most races on a shoddy internet feed so... :D
 
Protein said:
It wasn't corrupt before 1999?

The level of corruption reached it's apotheosis when one rider began making donations to the very federation in place to be the sports' watchdog.

There was corruption before, but the UCI and the riders were never in the same bed together to the extent it was taken when Armstrong was winning his Tours.

Bottom line is, Contador will not receive a two-year ban and he will get to keep his Tour title.

The clenbutarol was in his system. Of this there is not doubt. The amount was not nearly enough to be of any benefit to him whatsoever.

The plasticine issue is not one that will be tackled by the UCI at this moment and will not make a difference in determining the final outcome. And that's pretty much it.

Everyone is free to go on about their business until the next big scandal pops up. :D:D:D
 

Dr. Maserati

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Digger said:
Yeah I know he's dirty - Werner Franke left many of us with no illusions on that score a number of years ago.
Whilst Iknew he was dirty, I didn't realise his Passport was all over the place. Vaughters was on the forum last year saying how he saw AC's passport and that it was impeccable. Although Kohl has shown the meaningless of this.

Sorry Digger - I have to correct that point.

This is what JV posted last year:
JV1973 said:
No Gasparotto. We do need an Italian at some point, but my favorite, Pinotti, was taken.

As for Alberto, maybe the one thing everyone hasnt considered is that I don't know if he's clean or not? I have some very good sources that say he is, however I also am very capable of reading "AC" in Puerto reports. So, the reality is this: I dont know.

Maybe if I could see his historical blood values, I'd know? However, I havent, so I cant say.
....
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Frosty said:
Have you got the exact quote? I have tried googling but not come up with anything that fits that? Also, when did JV see it? I know it would have been last year but we dont know the date of AC's apparently dodgy readings.

JV has never seen Contador's passport.
 
Thanks for that important correction. I'll remember it, and try to quell it if it comes up again.

Berzin said:
The governing bodies are corrupt, yes. But what about last year's scandal of the discarded hypodermic needles at the Tour that supposedly belonged to the Astana team?
It was illegal transfusion drip bags, and they were acquired by OCLAESP gendarmes. Link here.

This was beyond the scope of the UCI. Last I heard the investigation was put on the back burner due to more pressing investigations being more important.

Now if you wish to argue that if OCLAESP verifies that they were indeed illegal and belonged to Astana, that a moral decision by the UCI would be to suspend all riders and management from Astana pending further investigation, especially considering the sport and team's past, that would definitely be something to consider.

But we both know the UCI isn't interested in doing such a thing.
 
sometriguy said:
But, there is nothing wrong with being disappointed at the prospect of having to watch on some sketchy internet feed instead of watching on a nice tv.
You guys are still living in 2005. But no worries.

Some internet feeds are actually excellent and HD quality today. There are also many ways to hook your computer/internet up to your TV and watch the web video feed. In another five years or so this will be the primary way of "watching TV". In another decade or so it will be almost all there will be; most webcast feeds will be at full bandwidth 1080p quality topping the very best theater systems today. And interactive.

(Trust me, I work in broadcasting).

:cool:
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
JV has never seen Contador's passport.

yes he has!! that's why he so wanted him, because it looked "clean" at first glance.

back to the topic--Confidentiality is a lawyer's word for "Omerta" & when the UCI make deals with "protected riders" they expect payouts & mutual cooperation-so they can manage to clear those "minute" details off the record quietly...I am certain that if AC gets his way out of this mess in a reasonable manner, we'll witness an "unique" bond between him & Pat for years & TDF titles to come...
 
Digger said:
Yeah I know he's dirty - Werner Franke left many of us with no illusions on that score a number of years ago.
Whilst Iknew he was dirty, I didn't realise his Passport was all over the place. Vaughters was on the forum last year saying how he saw AC's passport and that it was impeccable. Although Kohl has shown the meaningless of this.

Was it Ashenden who recently said that impeccable passports are just as doubtful as dodgy ones? ie they are likely to be manipulated into impeccability?
 
Re Vaughters and Contador

Alberto is a great talent. I think he's the most talented rider in the world, a really good person. I consider him a friend, I consider his brother a friend; I think he's a really honest and true person who has incredible athletic talent. Love to have him on the team. When that happens, I don't know.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?columnist=ford_bonnie_d&id=4836590

As for the coverup, according to WADA

Each ADO is required to make public disclosure of an anti-doping rule violation no later than 20 days after it has been determined in a hearing that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred.

Apparently no violation has occurred before this week :rolleyes:
 
Mar 4, 2010
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hfer07 said:
yes he has!! that's why he so wanted him, because it looked "clean" at first glance.

JV1973 said:
I've never seen Contador's blood values. Of course I need to see these with any rider who wants to race for Garmin-Slipstream. I am Jeffersonian in my approach to this. I negotiate in good faith, assuming the values will be good. If when revealed they are not suitable for our team, then I end the final part of negotiation. This applies to any rider.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=74008&postcount=63
 
Oct 29, 2009
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I transcribed that NOS video fragment that was linked earlier on, for those interested.

I don't quite subscribe to DAOTEC's characterisation of it. Whilst he does clearly state that WASA wants a big fish, he doesn't exactly state that the UCI "wants to get Contador off the hook".

Mart indicates that he understands that, to UCI's eyes, this reading does not clearly prove to a European rules standard that is significant to them, that Contador is actually on that hook in the first place. And that is why they won't/can't make a case out of it.

Nor does Mart state that the 6 experts "exposed Contador in July". He explains how 6 experts "exposed 6 different readings of the same case". They can't all be true, if any. A subtle but important distinction.

I'm no fan of the UCI, but, if all this is accurate, then it does suggest, for this particular case, that smelling a cover-up might - might - be jumping one fence too many.

Judge for yourselves though.

It's all Mart Smeets from here:

====================

... since then more information has become available, and if you quietly assess it, then it leads to the conclusion that it, in reality, has become a tug of war between the rule makers, between the UCI and WADA.

The cycling organisation, it is fair to say, hasn't been totally adequate, as it has waited too long with releasing the news about Contador into the public domain. It was, of course, a known issue for a while now within the inner sanctum of the UCI.

But, the UCI took the position that the pictogramme that was found - and one has to realize that that is zero point and then 10 more zeros and then a five - that this was a negligible amount. Because there is a European rule that states that it has to be much, much higher before someone can be declared positive.

But, and this is key, because there still is a battle between the UCI and WADA [snipped explanation of who these bodies are], a battle that can be traced back to the days of Dick Pound, the Canadian ex-president of WADA and Hein Verbruggen, the ex-President of the UCI, because that battle still rages... because this battle still exists, it is now pretty much fought out over the head of Contador.

That may sound strange, but I think that this is the case, I have indications in that direction.

And why does this take place? Because -and that has to be acknowledged- the Blood Passport of Contador showed irregularities. No big ones, but still significant enough to invite closer inspection.

And this was done by experts. Three people appointed by WADA and three people appointed by the UCI took a closer look at Contador's Blood Passport...

Could it be said that it was irregular? Yes, that could be said. Irregularities.

And then they asked the six experts, who were qualified and knew what they were looking for: "what was it exactly that you found out?" That question was answered in six different ways. No two answers the same, or three. No, six different replies. So there was totally no consensus on what was actually happening here.

And that makes this whole case so incredibly weak.

Then suddenly this Dane shows up, and this Dane declares, "yes, but hang on, I know what happened here: the urine also showed a plastic residue trace, and that indicates that Contador used a plastic bag that stored blood....".

In the past few hours it has become clear that even this explanation can be countered. It is likely that if you, for instance, get a meal at McDonalds, and the burger you eat had been kept in plastic wrapping, that you would find traces of plastic wrapping in your urine too.

That's how complicated this all is.

But the crux is, that, for the WADA people, Contador has to be nailed.

They are totally determined to nail a high-ranking cyclist. And they estimated that the Blood Passport would be sufficient for this. And that incredibly small amount of clenbuterol that now has been found, that is now seized on, so they can crucify him.

And there is a precedent for it. And one that doesn't favour Contador. And that precedent concerns a case of a Chinese athlete, Li, who has been suspended for two years, also because of clenbuterol. But the amount that was found in him was higher than that which was found in Contador.

Sources within the UCI have told me that it is for -say- 98% certain that he will survive this trip. It's all a bit too vague, the percentages are too small, and thus he will, most likely, "escape having suffered nothing more than a bit of a fright".

But it is a fact that the cycling world looks bad again, and must start all over again.

I ask myself, when will it finally end? When are the people behind the green table finally willing to create a set of very good rules that are adhered to by all? When will that happen, when will the war between WASA and the UCI finally stop, and when will they start to fight the same, single, battle: namely for an honest sport. But also for an honest rules system, honest rules and honest values [hinting at thresholds, numbers, not morality]. That is what is at the heart of the matter here.

I don't absolve anyone, I don't take anyone's irons out of the fire for him. But this is something that may also be said, in fairness, for once.

And one more thing: do you know the total cost to the UCI to follow through on the doping control of one single rider, and the aftermath of it, and the aftermath of that? Half a million Euros. The UCI spends an unbelievable amount in its efforts to expose the guilty.

The conclusion of it all: a frightened Contador will probably escape.

http://nos.nl/video/188818-mart-smeets-over-contador.html
 
Sep 25, 2009
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roundabout said:
So where's this European rule standard found?

Crayoned by Paddy?
he is likely referring to a legal limit allowance for clen in beef. i think krebs303 put it at .o1 ng/g which in turn would mean that the level found in berto is ok by european reality whereas wada demands total zero according for non treshold substances. just guessing.

but the whole smeets story sounds a little bit confusing with some facts not checking out.

fdp thanks for your labours.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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roundabout said:
So where's this European rule standard found?

Crayoned by Paddy?

I don't know. Ask Mart, ask the UCI.

If Mart Smeets account of the run-up reflects reality, we can say with certainty that somewhere there is a relevant and genuine rule that has consequences for the way it treats this case.

So, much as I dislike Paddy, the one thing we can say with certainty is that a genuine rule is not of the type that would be "crayoned by Paddy".

The first part of your post is a good and valid question (I had the same, and thus tried to transcribe it in all its vague glory as accurate as I could, avoiding "law" and other words that add more value to "rules").

The second part of your post suggest, to me, that you might not actually care about a genuine answer.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
I don't know. Ask Mart, ask the UCI.

If Mart Smeets account of the run-up reflects reality, we can say with certainty that somewhere there is a relevant and genuine rule that has consequences for the way it treats this case.

So, much as I dislike Paddy, the one thing we can say with certainty is that a genuine rule is not of the type that would be "crayoned by Paddy".

The first part of your post is a good and valid question (I had the same, and thus tried to transcribe it in all its vague glory as accurate as I could, avoiding "law" and other words that add more value to "rules").

The second part of your post suggest, to me, that you might not actually care about a genuine answer.
http://martinbudden.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/contador-–-cheat-or-bad-meat/
The European Union Maximum Residue Limit (MRL) for clenbuterol is 0.1 microgram per kilogram for bovine muscle and 0.05 microgram per kilogram for bovine milk. So a 100g piece of steak could legally contain up to 0.01 micrograms, that is 10 nanograms, of clenbuterol.
but again, if poeple want to read their own questions w/o entertaining other answers, they'll never know.
 
Francois the Postman said:
I don't know. Ask Mart, ask the UCI.

If Mart Smeets account of the run-up reflects reality, we can say with certainty that somewhere there is a relevant and genuine rule that has consequences for the way it treats this case.

So, much as I dislike Paddy, the one thing we can say with certainty is that a genuine rule is not of the type that would be "crayoned by Paddy".

The first part of your post is a good and valid question (I had the same, and thus tried to transcribe it in all its vague glory as accurate as I could, avoiding "law" and other words that add more value to "rules").

The second part of your post suggest, to me, that you might not actually care about a genuine answer.

Uh, i would be happy to ask Smeets if you can provide me with his email.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
Then suddenly this Dane shows up, and this Dane declares, "yes, but hang on, I know what happened here: the urine also showed a plastic residue trace, and that indicates that Contador used a plastic bag that stored blood....".

In the past few hours it has become clear that even this explanation can be countered. It is likely that if you, for instance, get a meal at McDonalds, and the burger you eat had been kept in plastic wrapping, that you would find traces of plastic wrapping in your urine too.

Everyone has plasticizers in their system. What's damning for Contador is the very high levels of it. Did you read the study Ingsve linked to? Contador's concentration of DEHP was 480 ng/ml. That's roughly 5 times more than the highest value recorded in any member of the control group and even higher than the highest value in a "hospitalized patient exposed to different medical treatments involving plastic materials (catheters, infusion sets, tubes, parenteral nutrition, etc.)".

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02352.x/full

python said:
he is likely referring to a legal limit allowance for clen in beef. i think krebs303 put it at .o1 ng/g which in turn would mean that the level found in berto is ok by european reality whereas wada demands total zero according for non treshold substances. just guessing.

but the whole smeets story sounds a little bit confusing with some facts not checking out.

fdp thanks for your labours.

Only if he ate at least 5 kg of meat.