Contador acquitted

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Jun 10, 2010
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Barrus said:
Do you know the reason why it was ruled out? I am genuinally interested to see how they came to that conclusion, because there is no real way to disprove a transfusion, if not by the passport?

Hugh Januss said:
For the slower ones (well me) how was the tranfusion theory ruled out then?
That's the thing, god knows. I explained what little info we have in this post:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=438108&postcount=365

We haven't seen that report, so we have to trust the RFEC on this one.

edit: I assume what they set out to do was prove the clen traces weren't consistent with what you'd see in a transfusion. Either that, or they just laughed hysterically and went on to play some Mario bros.
 
May 24, 2010
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I love all you guys. You're all so righteous, and wonderful. And I get a real kick out of reading all the opinions. However, I'm ecstatic that Alberto is going to be on his bike again. And I'm going to love it when he takes it to the Tour de France again, as the appeals process takes forever to run it's course. It's taken 7 months to get this far, so right after the World Championships we might get a final verdict from CAS.....maybe, possibly......
Ah, folks. It's such a grand joke. C'mon, cut the serious insanity. It's a waste of energy. Take it with a grain of salt, and keep laughing at it. That's all it's worth.:D:D:D
 
Jul 9, 2009
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hrotha said:
That's the thing, god knows. I explained what little info we have in this post:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=438108&postcount=365

We haven't seen that report, so we have to trust the RFEC on this one.

edit: I assume what they set out to do was prove the clen traces weren't consistent with what you'd see in a transfusion. Either that, or they just laughed hysterically and went on to play some Mario bros.

Well there is nothing there to support the statement that they didn't use the passport to eliminate transfusion posibilitys. Admittedly nothing there says they did either, but how else would they have done?
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Thanks for taking the time to chime in and let us know that you don't have time to take part in the discussion.:D
 
Dec 21, 2010
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nowhereman said:
I love all you guys. You're all so righteous, and wonderful. And I get a real kick out of reading all the opinions. However, I'm ecstatic that Alberto is going to be on his bike again. And I'm going to love it when he takes it to the Tour de France again, as the appeals process takes forever to run it's course. It's taken 7 months to get this far, so right after the World Championships we might get a final verdict from CAS.....maybe, possibly......
Ah, folks. It's such a grand joke. C'mon, cut the serious insanity. It's a waste of energy. Take it with a grain of salt, and keep laughing at it. That's all it's worth.:D:D:D

roundabout said:
Weren't you the guy who was busy kicking Ricco in a thread nearby?

zing!

I'm just interested to see how he rides the Algarve now.

And what this does to the betting lines for the Giro and Tour.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Hugh Januss said:
Well there is nothing there to support the statement that they didn't use the passport to eliminate transfusion posibilitys. Admittedly nothing there says they did either, but how else would they have done?
In the ruling proposal they do mention his passport values, but in completely different sections. It would be redundant if the report of the Spanish Anti-Doping Agency was based entirely on the passport.

As for how else they'd have done, well, they could have proven you can't get levels of clen compatible with what the tests showed by getting a blood bag in your veins, although I suppose (and this is pure speculation) it would be more likely if they proved you can't get that amount of clen in your system without significantly altering your biological passport values. Even though you probably can. Or maybe not. Who knows. It's not like we've seen the study.
 
Apr 18, 2010
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Jamsque said:
Come on CONI, do the right thing.

yup coni do the right thing: ban ricco for life, pellozoti for 2, and al jet for once. you know what coni should only invite good clean team like sky, garmin,
french teams and make for and explosive and espectacular edition of the giro.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Hugh Januss said:
Well there is nothing there to support the statement that they didn't use the passport to eliminate transfusion posibilitys. Admittedly nothing there says they did either, but how else would they have done?

they put ten ways in a hat and drew one out. instant decision, everyone can be happy, and have their faith in the system restored.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
That's the thing, god knows. I explained what little info we have in this post:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=438108&postcount=365

We haven't seen that report, so we have to trust the RFEC on this one.

edit: I assume what they set out to do was prove the clen traces weren't consistent with what you'd see in a transfusion. Either that, or they just laughed hysterically and went on to play some Mario bros.

that would seem unlikely, given the statistical likelihood that it was a transfusion that caused the positive.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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sniper said:
that would seem unlikely, given the statistical likelihood that it was a transfusion that caused the positive.
To be fair, there's no studies about that, are there?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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lilyprotector said:
my thoughts exactly. the whole thing was a set up to make it look like it was a real investigation.

Exactly.
That also explains the confidence with which AC announced that he would appeal the RFEC's 1-year proposal. Remember? I was surprised that he didn't even consider accepting the 1-year ban, even though most thought he should embrace it.
By that time this scenario had probably already been fixed between both parties.
 
Jul 3, 2010
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**Uru** said:
This points to how stupid the rules are. The riders that do not have money in the bank, like Li, end up accepting a ban for the same offense because they cannot affort to litigate this to the Nth degree. People like Contador, Valverde, or Flandis can push their cases through every level and will make the federations, UCI and WADA pay through the nose in order to get any kind of sanction enforced.

the li case is particularly bothersome to me especially since clenbuterol is a real problem in china. the guy who had it in his system from a country with clenbuterol poisoning issues gets the ban; the guy with clenbuterol and says he ate beef from a country that has not had clenbuterol problems in the beef gets off. this is very bad for the sport.
 
Sep 30, 2010
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Barrus said:
What?
This:


Completely ensures the destruction of any system based on strict liability and in the case of other doping products could easily lead to defences that riders were spiked and if no-one can show evidence of the contrary they could get off

(of course I employ some hyperbole)

The hyperbole aside, for me personally it would be a lot less worse that a guilty rider might get off than the fact that an innocent rider might get punished. So no liability-rules and a proper threshold for all or most substances would be a nice outcome of this
whole sorry-saga.

Publicus said:
Not necessarily. If his defense methodically excluded all other possibilities (including a blood transfusion) then it might be reasonable proof that contamination was the only plausible explanation. Hopefully that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense, at least to me.

Regards
GJ
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Publicus said:
Not necessarily. If his defense methodically excluded all other possibilities (including a blood transfusion) then it might be reasonable proof that contamination was the only plausible explanation. Hopefully that makes sense.

the only problem is that the contamination hypothesis had already been shown to be highly implausible by WADA's report.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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What a mess.

Months later and all it adds up to that everyone who had a theory or a conspiracy going in has been given enough cause to be even more "ever so totally convinced" that they were right, even if some of the theories in this thread are diametrically opposed.

Meanwhile, actual facts on the ground are still very thin. We are still speculating about the procedure -or trying to figure out- the actual rules that affect the case, who did what when, the actual defence, even the content actual findings, advice, etc.

I find it nigh impossible to come to any opinion how much justice is done here. From both an employment law pov, cycling rules pov and a doping pov. [I fear that my suspicions about the latter are on slightly firmer ground though, but ultimately speculative to a large degree too].

If the blood passport is used by Contador as a defence, that pretty much buries the usefulness of that program. Whoever takes this to arbitration would have to argue that complying dots don't mean a clean rider, but odd dots do suggest a doper. So "over the year" it really means nada, despite the fanfare with which it is paraded about. A lot of costs for not much (although I do credit it -my impression- that it has capped excessive doping to some extent).

if it is true that the UCI had expert papers that eliminated all but a contaminated steak and that that didn't make it to the defense team, wow. Either someone completely messed up due process, or was trying to withhold crucial defence, assuming that the papers that were passed on kept a positive as a result of blood doping firmly on the table as the only realistic option here. Either way is bad bad bad.

if it is true that clen (and other zero tolerance substances) is actually present in trace amounts that can give genuine innocent folk positives as suggested by lab directors, and WADA and the UCI is still not adjusting it rules to match the level of detection now possible, or the ad-hoc testing environment, or addresses the fact that some people are tested to much tighter controls than others, and the victory baton can be passed onto someone who might well have failed the same level of tests, or that the rules itself might well breach EU employment law...... phhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I will await the exact facts on what "got him off the hook" (for now). But it sure looks like Contador got away with fiddling at the margins (I suspect). And he would have stayed well within the margins if not for all but one giant self-inflicted ****-up.

That doesn't affect my conviction that the standards for "positives" should be set at a level that makes false positives impossible. And that everyone is tested to the standards. And that there should be a reasonable chance that a doper is nailed to start with, rather than this incidental scape-goating.

Zero-tolerance rules, when we can now peek at individual atoms, will also need to be brought into the 21st century. Pronto.

I am still not clear if the clen tests on cattle is done to the same standard that is applied to Contador (I doubt it). So 20,000 clean tests might not be what it seems at all. Even if clen isn't applied directly to cattle, it might well have been applied and mixed up into the stuff that they get fed, as god knows what actually happens in the Hakuna Matata food circle of intense farming life these days.

[Even if this might well be just a side note in this sage] We can only have rules that make sense for the environment that we live in. I have lost all confidence that the current rules match that criteria.

Anyhoo. Another moment when not a lot of parties look good. They all came out with fingers burnt and black marks against them, I think. Not a good day for the sport, whichever way you turn it. I just hope lessons are learned and something constructive will come out of it. I suspect that will be a lot less than needed, given past experiences with "watershed" doping moments in cycling.
 
Feb 4, 2011
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Publicus said:
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that he could point to bio passport over the course of the year, and specifically during the TdF. Until there is a validated test to establish a blood transfusion, that's the only real proof available and given the UCI's reliance on it in the Pelzotti (sp) and other cases, I think they would be hard pressed to argue AGAINST its validity at CAS. So unless WADA validates and then re-tests AC's samples, I don't know how you prove that he did in fact have a blood transfusion. And that was always the crux of the case: contamination or blood transfusion--it was either one or the other.

Again, just my speculation and not based on any particular knowledge of the actual arguments in the case. I was just responding to the notion that Barrus advance which is (and I'm paraphrasing) that this possibility could be disastrous going forward (I guess, technically, from WADA's stand point that is probably correct).
you make good points here...I hadnt thought about it from that angle. I must say it is nice to have a civil back and forth in "the clinic".
 
Sep 30, 2010
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c&cfan said:
well.. we will have to wait hrotha.
still i am waiting for that "sniper" guy to come here and talk about the humo, the plastic stuff and the hair test for the 1000000000000th time without even realizing that he is only saying dust. it does not matters at all. even wada and uci don't care about it. how can this guy never shut up about it?

I believe he is Dutch, which I believe should at least explain the fact that he i strong headed. ;) (I day this as a fellow Dutchman, strongly disagreeing with him)

Regards
GJ
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Publicus said:
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that he could point to bio passport over the course of the year, and specifically during the TdF. Until there is a validated test to establish a blood transfusion, that's the only real proof available and given the UCI's reliance on it in the Pelzotti (sp) and other cases, I think they would be hard pressed to argue AGAINST its validity at CAS.

to give credit where it's due, that point was made earlier by Python, and is probably correct.

Publicus said:
I don't know how you prove that he did in fact have a blood transfusion.

It's supposed to be the other way round, remember? AC needing to proof it wasn't a bloodtransfusion, I mean.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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lilyprotector said:
the li case is particularly bothersome to me especially since clenbuterol is a real problem in china. the guy who had it in his system from a country with clenbuterol poisoning issues gets the ban; the guy with clenbuterol and says he ate beef from a country that has not had clenbuterol problems in the beef gets off. this is very bad for the sport.

i hate to say it but but regarding fuyu li i think you have to consider the racist aspect. i don't recall seeing much in the way of protests in his favor, and when i brought it up a while back one poster said that "he didn't matter." to a certain extent that can be attributed the fact that contador is a star and li isn't, but unfortunately i don't believe that's completely the case. jingoism is alive and well here.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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sniper said:
the only problem is that the contamination hypothesis had already been shown to be highly implausible by WADA's report.

So the UCI, AC and RFEC conclude that it wasn't, but WADA says that it is implausible. I guess WADA will have to appeal and teach them a thing or two about science.
 
Feb 4, 2011
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Cobblestones said:
If he did blood doping it likely was a bunch of smaller transfusions spread over time to make any blood passport variation not stand out like a sore thumb over more natural fluctuations. Meaning even if there's daily data (which there isn't), it would be hard to prove a negative. The best you could do is to exclude transfusions above a certain volume.

Anyway, everybody in the sport who can put one and one together (to paraphrase Ullrich), knows Contador doped one way or another.

Maybe it goes the way of Valverde and the French step up and ban him from racing in France (the doping offense happened in France).
I hesitate to say that I would be shocked if this did not go to CAS, but I would be. However, I think that you are right in saying that there is a decent possibility that he will not be racing in France, I wonder if he will not be welcome to any ASO event as well. Has anyone heard any reactions from the French public? They have become so vocal about doping during the Tour, I wonder what their reaction will be and what roll that will play in future decisions.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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c&cfan said:
well.. we will have to wait hrotha.
still i am waiting for that "sniper" guy to come here and talk about the humo, the plastic stuff and the hair test for the 1000000000000th time without even realizing that he is only saying dust. it does not matters at all. even wada and uci don't care about it. how can this guy never shut up about it?

I never suggested either one of the things you bring up was going to matter in the legal case against AC.
ah, and **** you too.
 
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