Contador not given the time of Vino's group?

[riobonito92]

The Astana cars (like all of the cars) were behind the Chavanel group (some 4 minutes back). By the time a teammate or someone gave him a wheel, he would have come in behind the Armstrong group if he was lucky.

Thanks - I didn't know where the team car was. Makes sense.

 

[Barrus]

They seem to get along OK to me. Maybe I am wrong, but am just not seeing what these other folks claim they are seeing.

This is kind of a nutty thread on a day with a dull stage so people seem to just be filling their time.

Yes, I know they get along well, I just wanted to know how he would see the new contract of Conta, if the relationship was not good

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Accepting as the truth that Contador broke a spoke with 30 km to go, did he make the correct decision not to change bikes? - Surely they could have chosen a good non-pave spot to do a quick bike change and AC would have rejoined the same group.

Presumably the wheel became progressively less true the further he continued - so there may not have been an initial problem - but as soon as the tyre began to rub against the frame (if it did) it would have to explode sooner or later.

I been thinking about this and just cannot see that AC did not take a hige risk by not making a change.

What Angliru and Publicus said.

He basically did a cost/benefit analysis while having the fillings shaken out of his mouth and redlining his heart rate on a broken bike when everyone was expecting a colossal failure out of him. And still managed to choose the best option available.

This guy is no idiot. I don't think he blew and I don't think Vino has any malice towards him.

 

[Dedelou]

Yeah, based on everything I've read in the past 24 hours, my guess is that he was just dropped. I've heard that he had a flat, a broken spoke, rubbing brakes, etc. I mean come on.

Yeah based on everything you read on this forum.. Contador has lost the tour, was never any good any way.. He can't race. does know how to cooperate with teammates , climbs way to slow, doesn't understand tactic and is too stupid to handle a derailleur. can you imagine when he will be able to do that what he will be able to do? silly me thought he was going to be obliterated in the cobbles and i see he gained time in some of his competitors , brought his team mate in position to create GC damage in any of the intermediate stage.. Now any time lance, Carlos, Basso, Manchov ,or Wiggins makes a move they going to find Vino on their proverbial ars##s and have to drag him to the finish line with them.. And whatever they do in between now and then come the last week they still have to face the pistolero in the tourmalet twice, and in the ITT a few days later. What is magnifiscent evidence of astana 's stupidity.

 

[Beech Mtn]

If it's a wheel with a high spoke count then it's not going to be as adversely affected as some of the light weight wheels with fewer spokes. Lose a spoke in a Rolf-like design wheel and your day is likely done. Considering the terrain I would think they would have chosen a more durable wheel that can withstand the cobbles but also not be a liability on the regular pavement. Still, you're going to have some break rub and if riding with a warped wheel rubbing on your rear breaks is the cause of his getting dropped then I'd say he did extraordinarily well to finish where he did.

Alberto started the race on his regular road bike, then changed bikes before the pave. It was apparently a planned change. Here is the bike he rode on the pave and to the finish:

 

[Squares]

The Astana cars (like all of the cars) were behind the Chavanel group (some 4 minutes back). By the time a teammate or someone gave him a wheel, he would have come in behind the Armstrong group if he was lucky.

You can't really question his decision in the heat of the moment.

Why didn't vino stop and give him his wheel???

 

[joe_papp]

Vino is no Lance

“It was impressive, I’m happy that have won Vino, it’s as if I had won”, said Alberto Contador after congratulating at the finish line Alexander Vinokourov after his victory in Liege.





There's been some mumbling in the forums that Vino stabbed Alberto in the back yesterday during the Tour de France's pavé-laden third stage, and tried to drop him inside the last kilometer. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions, but that's one I don't share. No - Vino is simply the man. There have been several very plausible explanations tendered for what might have happened to result in Contador's being dropped-off the back of the Vino group in the final 500m, and I don't buy the claim that Vino attacked Alberto.


Vino is not, like Armstrong, a PsyOps warrior - and the only rider who would make an attack against his teammate - akin to throwing down the gauntlet and betraying his loyalties - when there was so little time to be gained is a rider like Armstrong. He would see the psychological value in stealing a few seconds from 'Berto while really trying to make him feel abandoned and alone - in hopes of shaking his confidence or weakening his resolve (even though we know that Contador is stronger than that).


Vino is like the Tasmanian Devil - he just "goes" and goes and goes and goes. His attacks are flamboyant and either suicidal if they fail, or brilliant if he comes off with a win. A calculating attack against his teammate with 750m to go is totally not his style - and that alone tells me that he didn't intend to gap Contador, and if he did push on to the line thinking that AC would get the same time as a result of a mechanical having happened inside the final 3km, when that really wasn't the case, it's a fog of war issue, plain and simple.


Plus, the claim that Vino flicked Contador totally ignores the epic amount of work he did on behalf of the Spaniard to guide him over the cobbles when the race was imploding.


Nahhh, leave Vino alone - don't pull a Phinney on him. Vino is no Lance (Thankfully) - and ex-Soviets of Vino's generation don't go for that petty bull****, sneak-attack-in-the-final-1km ruse - no, they just whip out a knife and slit your throat and are done with it.


Trust me, I know from experience!


The only time I've ever been ejected from a race and arrested afterward came during the UCI's Vuelta a Chile, when one of Vino's future-teammates and I came to blows after a stage (at the finish line, broadcast live on TV) and were hauled off by the coppers. Classic stuff. But those Kazakhs aren't subtle *******s - they fight like hell and aren't concerned with mind-games.





Just my two cents. Oh, and here's the rest of that post-Liege quote from Contador:


“It was impressive, I’m happy that have won Vino, it’s as if I had won”, said Alberto Contador after congratulating at the finish line Alexander Vinokourov after his victory in Liege.


“It was the result of the team work and I’m very happy”, he continued. “We had talked before the start we played with two options, mine went through attack at St. Nicholas or the Roche aux Faucons. There I started a little late, I got go with Andy Schleck, but we have been taken and when Vino is gone, I tried to make the maximum braking, especially with the Schleck brothers and Joaquim Rodriguez”.


“I’ve seen that Vino was very strong and had very touched listening how they cheered him on the radio. When I heard that he has won, I’ve been very happy”, he said. Contador also congratulated the team for their work. “We have been very compenetrated [sic]. We had two good chances of winning and when Vino goes ahead it was clear to me: I had to do what Saxo Bank did with Andy Schleck last year. The result was perfect”.

 

[Barrus]

The only time I've ever been ejected from a race and arrested afterward came during the UCI's Vuelta a Chile, when one of Vino's future-teammates and I came to blows after a stage (at the finish line, broadcast live on TV) and were hauled off by the coppers. Classic stuff. But those Kazakhs aren't subtle *******s - they fight like hell and aren't concerned with mind-games

Joe, is there any footage of this on youtube or whatever, because it would be fascinating to see

 

[Squares]

Vino is the man.

Plus, the claim that Vino flicked Contador totally ignores the epic amount of work he did on behalf of the Spaniard to guide him over the cobbles when the race was imploding..

So Joe, can you tell me why Vino would not stop and give Bertie his bike or wheel so that AC would have an easier time bridging to Schreck?

Isn't that what a dedicated teammate is supposed to do?

 

[woodburn]

The Astana cars (like all of the cars) were behind the Chavanel group (some 4 minutes back). By the time a teammate or someone gave him a wheel, he would have come in behind the Armstrong group if he was lucky.

You can't really question his decision in the heat of the moment.

Is there neutral service somewhere near the front that could have helped?

 

[this_is_edie]

Why didn't vino stop and give him his wheel???

Contador needed Vino to drive the chase to try and close down the time gap to Evans and Schleck. From what we saw, Contador was sitting at the back of the chase group with Vino, head down like a ram at the front. I don't know when Contador fell off the chase group but it was in the final K and there was too much noise for Vino to notice.

 

[Boeing]

Bad Luck. Not as bad as others but still

 

[Polish]

Vino rode himself cross-eyed over the final 10k to get Contador closer to the A. Schleck group, and Contador only got detached in the last K. .

Vino kept HIMSELF closer to A. Schleck too.
If Alberto dropped off the pace at 3k to go, would Vino have slowed down?
I assume you would say yes.

How about when Schleck, Vino, and AC are on a climb...

What happens if Vino is feeling gooood and AC has a bad day?
You say Vino will drop back from Andy to pace AC?
I say Vino does not look back and tries to stick with Andy.

Although I must admit Fran is doing a great job negotiating AC's contract.
String Vino/Astana along as long as possible.
"Sure AC will sign for you next year, just a few more little details"

 

[Beech Mtn]

Vino kept HIMSELF closer to A. Schleck too.
If Alberto dropped off the pace at 3k to go, would Vino have slowed down?
I assume you would say yes.

How about when Schleck, Vino, and AC are on a climb...

What happens if Vino is feeling gooood and AC has a bad day?
You say Vino will drop back from Andy to pace AC?
I say Vino does not look back and tries to stick with Andy.

Although I must admit Fran is doing a great job negotiating AC's contract.
String Vino/Astana along as long as possible.
"Sure AC will sign for you next year, just a few more little details"

Bang, Bang.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Bang, Bang.

The pistol shot is simply a great salute. It can be used in any manner of situations to good effect. Flecha's archery shot is tres elegante but it just doesn't have the finality of the pistol shot. "I might live, it's just an arrow...."

OK, I think I am done now.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Polish ususally ends his AC posts with "Bang, Bang." I just thought it was fitting this time.

 

[Squares]

Contador needed Vino to drive the chase to try and close down the time gap to Evans and Schleck. From what we saw, Contador was sitting at the back of the chase group with Vino, head down like a ram at the front. I don't know when Contador fell off the chase group but it was in the final K and there was too much noise for Vino to notice.

So, Contador needed him for the chase so much that he had to ride 30 K with a broken spoke?

I would think that AC would have had a better chance of getting back by getting a new wheel/bike from Vino, working his way back to the group Vino finished with, and then trying the bridge on his own to Schreck and Evans.

It would have worn him out and he would be isolated, but in the end he was isolated when his own "team mate" drove the pace so fast he couldn't keep up because of the broken spoke.

Let's look at it another way, if the guy in the Astana jersey who drove the pace and dropped Contador without looking back happened to have the initials LA, everyone would be critical, but with Vino it is excused by so many...

I wonder why that is?

 

[Barrus]

Let's look at it another way, if the guy in the Astana jersey who drove the pace and dropped Contador without looking back happened to have the initials LA, everyone would be critical, but with Vino it is excused by so many...

I wonder why that is?

Perhaps because there is no history of adversary between the two. That everything indicates that there is a great deal of mutual respect and friendship. The facrt that Vino has a vested interest in keeping Bert happy and have him win the tour and retain him for the Astana-team, because Bert has more of a future than Vino and Vino has a financial and emotional link with the Astana-team. Perhaps it is that Vino knows that Bert is the better rider and is a big enough man to recognize and acknowledge this. Perhaps it was that it only happened in the final K and not earlier so that Bert did not lose to much time.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

From the excerpts from Bill Strickland's book, it's pretty clear that AC was on his own for most of the Tour. No support from teammates, Bruyneel or the staff.

You can read some of the excerpts from the book on the Bicycling.com website. Here's a decent review from someone over at podium cafe:

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2010/7/7/1556482/tour-de-lance-by-bill-strickland

Loved the review. Thanks for the link. The book is about what I would expect based on that review. Maybe a little more fanboyish than expected.

As a wannabe writer, I really feel like Strickland does a disservice to the craft by compromising the truth to keep the myth alive. (Guess this needs a thread of its own to continue the topic) What a tragedy for Americans that Contador gets treated as he does in the book. Like there is a machine somewhere spitting out Contadors.

It also appears to further the omerta by extending it to journalists. Thanks, Bill.

The comments are off the hook.

And I thought I was the only one getting a lifetime free subscription to Bicycling for having done absolutely nothing to encourage its monthly arrival. It really is one of the worst magazines going. I used to subscribe to backpacker or backpacking magazine also by Rodale. Apparently it's a formula they have grown to love. If a newbie sticks with either of those for more than 2 years one must wonder if they are even reading it any longer or just leaving it in the john for something to look at while relieving oneself. (Another thread topic.)

 

[scribe]

Slight tactical mishap by Astana. With a little more awareness of the situation, Bertie could have pulled up within the last 3km and done a wheel change and would have got the same time as the Vino group. The Astana DS should have known better.

I don't see how Alberto could miss out tactically. Can you imagine he tosses the tour by less than :20. Rue the day, as Uncle Phil would say.

 

[Escarabajo]

...
I would think that AC would have had a better chance of getting back by getting a new wheel/bike from Vino, working his way back to the group Vino finished with, and then trying the bridge on his own to Schreck and Evans.

It would have worn him out and he would be isolated, but in the end he was isolated when his own "team mate" drove the pace so fast he couldn't keep up because of the broken spoke.

..

I don't agree with you. I just think that AC chose a different alternative to yours. That's all. I like AC alternative's better than yours also. Just saying.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Rue the day, as Uncle Phil would say.

To paraphrase Zappa:

Broken Hearts and ruing are for @$$holes.

Ruing sux.

 

[Publicus]

Is there neutral service somewhere near the front that could have helped?

I don't know, but my guess is that he didn't want to wait to find out.

 

[Publicus]

So, Contador needed him for the chase so much that he had to ride 30 K with a broken spoke?

I would think that AC would have had a better chance of getting back by getting a new wheel/bike from Vino, working his way back to the group Vino finished with, and then trying the bridge on his own to Schreck and Evans.

It would have worn him out and he would be isolated, but in the end he was isolated when his own "team mate" drove the pace so fast he couldn't keep up because of the broken spoke.

Let's look at it another way, if the guy in the Astana jersey who drove the pace and dropped Contador without looking back happened to have the initials LA, everyone would be critical, but with Vino it is excused by so many...

I wonder why that is?

Can you point me to the article where Vino said he's at the this Tour to win? That he wouldn't be racing if he didn't think he could win it all? That the leadership of the team would be decided on the road?

Don't worry, I'll wait....

 

[scribe]

If Contador bonks, it would be silly for Vino to not lay down a trail of fire up the tourmalet.