Contador positive!!!!!

[theswordsman]

Sorry, I'm a bit late here and just catching up, so in summary:

Contador/Astana arranged to have some nice juicy steaks brought over from Spain for a special meal, only two from the team were tested but Vino had gone for the fish earlier in the day leaving Alberto as the only positive ?_?

He'd been tested prior and after this test but nothing was found so his story is the meat but a blood transfusion sounds all the more likely ?_?

You're caught up. The meat supposedly came with the organizer of the Volta a Catalunya who offered to bring something along. Vino was the only other Astana rider tested that day, but he supposedly ate earlier on the rest day and didn't partake.

Contador had a blood test that morning, and the urine test three hours after the meal. If it makes sense that, as Damsgaard suggests, Contador added blood that he'd bagged earlier in the year when using the substance, wouldn't that likely have occurred after the morning blood test? They could look at values from that morning and the next one for signs of infusion.

 

[Anonymous]

Still dont think contador will go down for this one. Be interested to know if it was a UCI test or an AFLD/WaDA test though.

 

[Winterfold]

I dont understand the distinction between the dectable minimum and a positive?

If the amount found is below the detectable minimum then how is that a positive?

Clearly I am missing something...

Can someone who does understand please explain it?

I find his explanation plausible - it would not surprise me in the slightest if lots of livestock were injected with this stuff to make the meat leaner.

If he were going to test +ve for it if he was properly doping with it then surely the amount detected would be much higher? What is the point of taking the risk on an amount which is not going to help performance? The guy just isnt that dumb. This would equally apply if it was a transfusion.

 

[JRTinMA]

Still dont think contador will go down for this one. Be interested to know if it was a UCI test or an AFLD/WaDA test though.

It was done in an accredited lab in Cologne, Germany. I don't think AFLD even tested at the tour this year.

 

[Anonymous]

i'm just glad Vino had fish

 

[sometriguy]

You're caught up. The meat supposedly came with the organizer of the Volta a Catalunya who offered to bring something along. Vino was the only other Astana rider tested that day, but he supposedly ate earlier on the rest day and didn't partake.

Contador had a blood test that morning, and the urine test three hours after the meal. If it makes sense that, as Damsgaard suggests, Contador added blood that he'd bagged earlier in the year when using the substance, wouldn't that likely have occurred after the morning blood test? They could look at values from that morning and the next one for signs of infusion.

So, was it the blood test or the urine test that showed the positive? If it was the blood his theory is debunked, if urine then there could be validity...

 

[blutto]

He has money, he will get away with it. Its total BS but this is the system we have.

....got to this party late and apologize if this has already been pointed out...but it seems this is likely not of Contadors doing because a TUE, which is dead simple to get for a drug like this, would have easily made this a non-issue...so if you were doing something untoward why not just hide behind a TUE ( unless, of course,the Petacchi incident has forced a change in the rules that I'm not aware of)....just a thought...

Cheers

blutto

 

[jezzer]

In our clamour to out dopers (rightly imo), are we 100% positive (sorry!) that we know exactly what doping looks like in the blood chemistry? I know that's what the blood passport attempts to address.

You're dead right, and I was very clear in my post that I have NO idea about the chemistry side of things. I would also say though, that even if there was an existing study that showed no traces of Clenbuterol in frozen blood, it would want to have been performed with equipment as sensitive as that used in the positive finding for me to be convinced it isn't possible.

It is at least possible that food contamination is a possibility. Even for a rider with known doping associates in the middle of a GT... as darkly ironic as I find it!

Yup, it is possible that is it a possibility! Just your usage of language there underlines how implausible it is (even if it is possible). I'm guessing it's a more popular drug than its efficacy in performance-enhancement would suggest, precisely because you can always blame a +ive on contamination and at least have some doubt thrown on your guilt.

I'm one of those many people who was interested in cycling 10 years ago but it has totally fallen off my radar due to doping. Only lately have I come back to see what it's about these days, under the shakily-held hope that it's at least a bit less tainted that it was. So I have NO agenda to out someone - I'd prefer nobody to ever be found +ive. I don't want to be cynical, but it's hard, very hard.

 

[JRTinMA]

....got to this party late and apologize if this has already been pointed out...but it seems this is likely not of Contadors doing because a TUE, which is dead simple to get for a drug like this, would have easily made this a non-issue...so if you were doing something untoward why not just hide behind a TUE ( unless, of course,the Petacchi incident has forced a change in the rules that I'm not aware of)....just a thought...

Cheers

blutto

Sorry, no TUE for Clen. Backdating is not an option here.

 

[BroDeal]

I dont understand the distinction between the dectable minimum and a positive?

If the amount found is below the detectable minimum then how is that a positive?

Clearly I am missing something...

Can someone who does understand please explain it?

I find his explanation plausible - it would not surprise me in the slightest if lots of livestock were injected with this stuff to make the meat leaner.

If he were going to test +ve for it if he was properly doping with it then surely the amount detected would be much higher? What is the point of taking the risk on an amount which is not going to help performance? The guy just isnt that dumb. This would equally apply if it was a transfusion.

Certain sustances that are not naturally occurring in the body have no minimum threshold for a positive. Theoretically if a single molecule of these substances entered your system through breathing it in or kissing someone or touching something or whatever and it was detected then you would be positive. Stupid, but the anti-doping rule makers have never been too good at making rational rules.

The detectable minimum is simply the minimum level that an accredited lab needs to be able to detect. It has nothing to do with the level that constitutes a positive.

Personally I think Contador probably did get a positive from contamination, but that is no reason not to make fun of the situation and enjoy the turmoil it has created.

 

[python]

OK, let me try this again:

"The UCI issued a report that “the concentration found by the laboratory was estimated at 50 picograms (or 0,000 000 000 05 grams per ml) which is 400 times less than what the antidoping laboratories accredited by WADA must be able to detect".

My understanding is that "what the antidoping laboratories accredited by WADA must be able to detect" = MRPL.

Now if the MRPL is 2ng/ml then 20pg/ml is 40 x not 400x?

i understand the confusion (btw, mods, this post may be an indication why we may need more than one super long thread as some people already explained this). math aside, i'll try too...

there are 30+ wada labs around the world. each has it's own funding limit, resources and research potential. in an attempt to standardize dope testing wada issues 'harmonizing' standards or technical documents. for some substances they are very prescriptive, for other they are loose and tbh poor or in wada's lingo 'non-specific'.

the 2ng/ml limit is what wada expects any wada laboratory to detect, identify and quantify (where applicable). some labs due to use of very sensitive methods can beat the minimum by hundreds of times. iow, their own validated methods have limit of detection (lod, yet a different term which is also a statistical term) that very much beats the wada expected 2 units. in the contador's case, he was unlucky that the german lab (yes, it was german not french) can detect clen in the pico gram range. the quantification of 50 pico gram is an approximation (as the limit of qaontification - loq) was not applied in this case per de boer.

that's why all the numbers and multipliers whist important should not be obsessed over. the important thing is that a non-indigenous substance was detected in berto's biological fluid in any detectable amount.

 

[Publicus]

Curious, when they test their blood, do they test for the same stuff as they test in urine? In short, would the blood test have detected (directly or indirectly) the presence of the clen?

His defense seems plausible at the moment (certainly doesn't have the stench of Landis' whiskey excuse), but it's early still.

 

[python]

Curious, when they test their blood, do they test for the same stuff as they test in urine?

generally no. but sometimes when targeting, they'll take both blood and urine. several substances usually fall in this category particularly blood volume expanders and other masking agents.

In short, would the blood test have detected (directly or indirectly) the presence of the clen?

absolutely and it's likely not have been done for berto.

 

[sometriguy]

Curious, when they test their blood, do they test for the same stuff as they test in urine? In short, would the blood test have detected (directly or indirectly) the presence of the clen?

His defense seems plausible at the moment (certainly doesn't have the stench of Landis' whiskey excuse), but it's early still.

There was a post earlier stating that on this date, his blood was drawn in the morning and he had a urine test in the evening (post steak dinner).

I am still not clear on whether the positive came from the blood test or the urine test

 

[Muriel]

I'm one of those many people who was interested in cycling 10 years ago but it has totally fallen off my radar due to doping. Only lately have I come back to see what it's about these days, under the shakily-held hope that it's at least a bit less tainted that it was. So I have NO agenda to out someone - I'd prefer nobody to ever be found +ive. I don't want to be cynical, but it's hard, very hard.

Sounds similar to my position.

I'm torn by not wanting it to be true but realising the possibility/probability that it is. So I guess I'm looking too wantingly at the benefit of the doubt.

 

[indurain666]

Curious, when they test their blood, do they test for the same stuff as they test in urine? In short, would the blood test have detected (directly or indirectly) the presence of the clen?

His defense seems plausible at the moment (certainly doesn't have the stench of Landis' whiskey excuse), but it's early still.

I really don't get why UCI published this, they really screwed him up, apparently:

-He didn't test positive the day before the rest day

-He test positive by50 picograms. during the rest day.

-He didn't test positive the day after.

-All these samples were tested at the same lab.

-According to me: best usage of clen is to get "ripped" and dosages are around 20-150micrograms, that is thousands of times of what they found on Alberto's blood. Even then, why would he take a fraction of a clen pill during the rest day? to get ripped for the podium ladies?

If all of the above are true, I believe Alberto

Best case scenario: this is going to take a huge emotional toll on him and will hurt his TDF preparation

Worse case scenario: he will get suspended for two years.

UCI has done it again....way to go

 

[davestoller]

Looks like this guy's........dead meat


YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH





If you believe Contador's excuse, then yeah, I'd say you do.

The winner here is the French beef industry.


But seriously, WADA testing and the feud between AFLD and UCI and now Bordry retiring right in the middle of throwing an ad hominem bone across the Atlantic the week before Contador's positive is revealed.

Coincidence?
I dont think so.

 

[luckyboy]

WTF!? I spend all night with my friend at the hospital and all this crap happens?!

Because it's a banned substance which isn't naturally produced in the body?

Anything above absolute zero is theoretically enough to give a positive test.

How come people get away with micro-dosing EPO then?

 

[hektoren]

the important thing is that a non-indigenous substance was detected in berto's biological fluid in any detectable amount.

No, the really, really important thing is that the athlete's careers are utterly dependent on a system that's basically flawed: A positive in one lab can be a negative in another. There's got to be a baseline, a consensus as to what constitutes a positive, content-wise.

 

[Muriel]

So, from the left field with a tongue-in-cheek remark; how much has this all cost team Armstrong in donations to UCI?

 

[icefire]

I really don't get why UCI published this, they really screwed him up, apparently:

-He didn't test positive the day before the rest day

-He test positive by50 picograms. during the rest day.

-He didn't test positive the day after.

-All these samples were tested at the same lab.

-According to me: best usage of clen is to get "ripped" and dosages are around 20-150micrograms, that is thousands of times of what they found on Alberto's blood. Even then, why would he take a fraction of a clen pill during the rest day? to get ripped for the podium ladies?

If all of the above are true, I believe Alberto

Best case scenario: this is going to take a huge emotional toll on him and will hurt his TDF preparation

Worse case scenario: he will get suspended for two years.

UCI has done it again....way to go

Err... Just divide those 20 micrograms between... say 5000 ml (being generous) -> 4 ng/ml. Not the thousands times what he got, only 80 times the 50 pg/ml figure that has been published

 

[Publicus]

There was a post earlier stating that on this date, his blood was drawn in the morning and he had a urine test in the evening (post steak dinner).

I am still not clear on whether the positive came from the blood test or the urine test

From what I understand it was from the urine test (post-meal). If the meat is indeed traceable, wouldn't it be a small thing to contact the farm to find out if they treat their livestock with the clen?

 

[eleven]

With the weight of the evidence I've seen in the past few hours, I'm beginning to think that perhaps it was incidental / accidental ingestion. Those levels are awfully low.

Contador's in a tough spot. It will be difficult to explain why Li awaits a ban for similar levels while Contador is allowed to blame it on meat....and I don't recall the UCI having an exception for "accidental" ingestion anyway.

in the bigger picture, with all the doping at the pointy end of the peloton this seems a bit like arresting the underage cigarette smoker at the crack house.

 

[Ferminal]

I really don't get why UCI published this, they really screwed him up, apparently:

Uhh, he tested positive for a banned substance (regardless of the details), any legitimate, transparent and non-corrupt organisation would report this as a positive test

So it does beg the question, why would the UCI of all organisations come public with this.

 

[icefire]

From what I understand it was from the urine test (post-meal). If the meat is indeed traceable, wouldn't it be a small thing to contact the farm to find out if they treat their livestock with the clen?

Clen is forbidden, so we can expect they'll say no