Contador vs. Froome

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

Yes, today Froome obviously had way more power in his legs than Contador ever had. That doesn't make it admirable. A win against all odds, more based on willpower and perseverance than pure strength is way harder to pull off than an 80k solo when you' ve got 50 more Watts in your legs than everyone else. Why do you suppose people cheer for the underdog?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

You want me to say it?

It wasn't as good.

That's not even what it's about for me.

Ability in isolation is not at all admirable to me.

Not sure what you mean by ability in isolation. Froome's been the most consistent GT rider of his generation. Even right now, he's on course to hold all three GTs at once, and may even have a chance at the Giro-Tour double.

There's not much isolation about that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

You want me to say it?

It wasn't as good.

That's not even what it's about for me.

Ability in isolation is not at all admirable to me.

Not sure what you mean by ability in isolation. Froome's been the most consistent GT rider of his generation. Even right now, he's on course to hold all three GTs at once, and may even have a chance at the Giro-Tour double.

There's not much isolation about that.

Just ability without anything else. Ability in isolation.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

Yes, today Froome obviously had way more power in his legs than Contador ever had. That doesn't make it admirable. A win against all odds, more based on willpower and perseverance than pure strength is way harder to pull off than an 80k solo when you' ve got 50 more Watts in your legs than everyone else. Why do you suppose people cheer for the underdog?

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

He was something like a minute+ ahead of everyone other than Valverde and Rodriguez on the Hoz already.

**** stupid quote limit.

Yes, Purito was on a bad day, Piti stayed on Purito's wheel, and Berto had 2+1 domestiques in the break. Of course he could build an advantage. Maybe you should watch that stage again, tactics 101.

He built an advantage of nearly 5 minutes on everyone other than Rodriguez and Valverde in 50km. And those guys weren't picking their noses.

But ok, you win. Contador wasn't suddenly massively better than he was before or after that day.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

Yes, today Froome obviously had way more power in his legs than Contador ever had. That doesn't make it admirable. A win against all odds, more based on willpower and perseverance than pure strength is way harder to pull off than an 80k solo when you' ve got 50 more Watts in your legs than everyone else. Why do you suppose people cheer for the underdog?

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Could you stop saying dumoulin isn't elite? If dumoulin isn't elite then literally nobody is other than froome. Nibali is old, Quintana hasn't shown anything since 2016 (in any race of any length) and lost to dumoulin, despite the fact that tom took a ***.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

He was something like a minute+ ahead of everyone other than Valverde and Rodriguez on the Hoz already.

**** stupid quote limit.

Yes, Purito was on a bad day, Piti stayed on Purito's wheel, and Berto had 2+1 domestiques in the break. Of course he could build an advantage. Maybe you should watch that stage again, tactics 101.

He built an advantage of nearly 5 minutes on everyone other than Rodriguez and Valverde in 50km. And those guys weren't picking their noses.

But ok, you win. Contador wasn't suddenly massively better than he was before or after that day.

With. The. Help. Of. 3. Team. Mates.
Bloody hell.
And Berto was climbing well that whole Vuelta, he was just consistently outpunched by Purito and Bala in the final few hundred meters, which is the story of his career.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

Yes, today Froome obviously had way more power in his legs than Contador ever had. That doesn't make it admirable. A win against all odds, more based on willpower and perseverance than pure strength is way harder to pull off than an 80k solo when you' ve got 50 more Watts in your legs than everyone else. Why do you suppose people cheer for the underdog?

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Yes, I'm selling him short, and Froome is obviously 5 times the rider Contador was. Happy now? Good.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Yes, I'm selling him short, and Froome is obviously 5 times the rider Contador was. Happy now? Good.

No need for the passive-aggressive response. Just not sure why it's necessary to try to diminish one of the greatest, most daring attacking rides in recent cycling history.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Yes, I'm selling him short, and Froome is obviously 5 times the rider Contador was. Happy now? Good.

No need for the passive-aggressive response. Just not sure why it's necessary to try to diminish one of the greatest, most daring attacking rides in recent cycling history.

This was great all right

But it wasn't all that daring

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Yes, I'm selling him short, and Froome is obviously 5 times the rider Contador was. Happy now? Good.

No need for the passive-aggressive response. Just not sure why it's necessary to try to diminish one of the greatest, most daring attacking rides in recent cycling history.

I'm not diminishing anything, my friend. Just trying to be a voice of reason among all the Berto haters and Froome fans that have suddenly evaded this thread.
I think I've said this before, but the thing that I hate the most on this forum is the constant drive to compare one rider to another, usually to diminish the achievements of one of them.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Yes, I'm selling him short, and Froome is obviously 5 times the rider Contador was. Happy now? Good.

No need for the passive-aggressive response. Just not sure why it's necessary to try to diminish one of the greatest, most daring attacking rides in recent cycling history.

This was great all right

But it wasn't all that daring

Well, I agree that he was in position in the GC where the risk-reward of such a move was in his favour. But attacking with 80km to go and then going balls out to cement an advantage on a wet, technical descent - having crashed twice in the previous couple of weeks - is still pretty daring.

 

[Red Rick]

The descent was courageous, that one I'll admit.

 

[Climber123]

Re: Re:

Fuente De gave me more chills than any other sport victory has given me (only Angliru last year is up there). But performance-wise Froome's victory today is in a league of its own.

Oh definitely, at least whenever Contador pulled off a big win or attack he at least always seemed human, which definitely makes it more emotional to watch unlike watching a robotic constant 350 Watts being pushed for 2.5 hours.

So, basically, Contador wasn't as good?

Tirreno 2014 was way better in terms of athletic ability. I mean, they had fresh riders Porte, Quintana etc. there. Not comparable. Alberto had watts in his best years comparable or better than Froome.

 

[arvc40]

Sensational ride from Froome, equal to Contadors Fuente de, win.

 

[Pennino]

Hate to say it, but today Froome showed great contadoresque panache. But Conta remains the legend, the diamond of modern cycling. Froome is still at most a scientific creation, most of the time hidden behind his superior squad. Today makes a little change to that, but nothing more.

 

[dacooley]

Re:

froome did a really impressive ride for a guy who can't ride in wet, on cobbles, has no racing instincts, can't do nothing without his team and quickly goes in a complete meltdown once a real racing starts. for the years, people gave him so many disparaging defitions. that's so hilarious.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

froome did a really impressive ride for a guy who can't ride in wet, on cobbles, has no racing instincts, can't do nothing without his team and quickly goes in a complete meltdown once a real racing starts. for the years, people gave him so many disparaging defitions. that's so hilarious.

And for quite a long time it was true. But he's developed himself a lot over the years. He's more of a racer than Wiggins could every hope to be.

But the irony is actually that todays tactics revolved once again solely on 'be the strongest rider with the strongest team'.

 

[scapewalker]

Contador will always be the most entertaining rider of his generation, simply because when he did it it seemed natural and believeable.

You have to admit though that what the Dawg did today was far beyond even Fuente de and might rank among the single greatest cycling performances in history. I had no idea something like what we have seen today was possible in a competitive field in 2k18.

 

[rlntlssly]

Re: Re:

But the irony is actually that todays tactics revolved once again solely on 'be the strongest rider with the strongest team'.

Which is, and always has been, the best way to win a bike race. But it didn't rely solely on strength: it also needed considerable guts.

 

[Taxus4a]

Contador had a very good tactical view, but Froome is a man to keep an attack at a good level from far, Contador has always attacked from super to less. A good example is Hazallanas in Vuelta Andalucia, Contador won, he did very well with the team ,especially, Basso, and Nieve that thay had a problem, Froome started the climb really bad.., but 2 Km more and Froome woud have put time on Contador....There are more examples.

Contador rode sometimes just for the people, Froome ride the most efective way to win. Today it was a solo 80 Km attack, and other days is just to be followng a superdomestique.. but both of them love the epic and bot of them want just victory.

Contador had a good determination, but Contador has face in this Giro rheir crashes, the rain, and he has never give up, that is a champion, He use to do that way usually, but today it was more clear for everybody.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Undoubtedly both are legends that deserve their place among the GOATs. Hard to credit arguments to the contrary.

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

Contador rode sometimes just for the people, Froome ride the most efective way to win. Today it was a solo 80 Km attack, and other days is just to be followng a superdomestique.. but both of them love the epic and bot of them want just victory.

Always easy to talk about being effective when you are to classes above the rest for 6/7 years constantly.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

I think you're selling Froome short. Lots of riders with that kind of power in their legs wouldn't have risked going solo from 90km out. When they could have just waited and destroyed everyone on the final climb instead.

Froome had the balls to attack when his teammates were already strangling the stage, showed fine technique to extend his lead on the descent, and managed his effort superbly for nearly three hours of riding. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to power - and Dumoulin and Pinot are not elite GT riders - but still, the performance was much less one dimensional than you are implying.

Yes, I'm selling him short, and Froome is obviously 5 times the rider Contador was. Happy now? Good.

No need for the passive-aggressive response. Just not sure why it's necessary to try to diminish one of the greatest, most daring attacking rides in recent cycling history.

This was great all right

But it wasn't all that daring

Well, I agree that he was in position in the GC where the risk-reward of such a move was in his favour. But attacking with 80km to go and then going balls out to cement an advantage on a wet, technical descent - having crashed twice in the previous couple of weeks - is still pretty daring.

This forum still exists?

I'm going to agree with DFA here. The sensible thing to do - and the 'Sky' way of racing - halfway up the Finestre would have been for Froome to continue to sit in, and for his team to continue to set a strong tempo, but without blowing the race completely apart. Yates had already stunningly tumbled out of contention, which would not have been in Sky's calculations, at least so early in the stage. This could have easily resulted in a revised plan (remember that Yates is the one we've always thought more likely to gain time in the mountains, Dumoulin more likely to lose; going into week three Froome was considered more of a chance to gain the time back on Dumoulin than Yates). Knowing that he had good legs, the safe and sensible decision would have been to race normally. With those legs he can probably gain at least a minute on Dumoulin on the final climb, and then there is stage 20 for a realistic chance to win the Giro. All done with relatively normal racing.

However Froome didn't settle for that option. He decided to go 'all in'. To go all in when he didn't 100% have to. By that point in time he was already guaranteed a podium spot, so he was risking far more than Landis did.

It also remains to be seen how much Froome pays for this tomorrow. If he does pay he will have his detractors. If he does not pay he will have his detractors. He cannot win.

But as a Contador fan, yesterday's stage was approximately double the performance and entertainment value of Fuente De. And it was completely different to something like PSM, for Froome gained huge time on the descents. It was certainly far more all around racing than we ever saw from Armstrong.

I don't believe that it diminishes Contador's legacy. We will still remember him, for how we remembered him then, and for me it's about the attitude even more than it is the outcome. One of my favourite movie quotes is "The answer must be in the attempt". That's why I love Contador.

But we cannot fault Froome's attitude on stage 19.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Double the performance value: yes, we've discussed that already in this thread and agreed on it.
Double the entertainment value: not really, at least not to me. If I cannot believe my eyes I cannot enjoy what I'm seeing and I don't think that's different for many others. A rider being 3 levels above his competitors and just crushing them left right and center is not something I usually enjoy, unless said rider is just a massive favorite.
In Contador's big raids there always was a degree of uncertainty or vulnerability. Yesterday, after he attacked, not for a second I believed Froome wouldn't pull that off. And it was an 80km solo over 3 big climbs. Go figure.