Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornand

[B.Rasmussen]

He didn't seem to mind lance hanging onto Wiggin's wheel.

Face it. The kid got what he wanted and cried about getting there afterward. He'll move on to alienate and use next season.

The only crying I saw was at Verbier, and it wasn't Contador who did the crying.

 

[patriot]

Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornard

Contador's attack seemed to be dumb mostly to those who are Lance
Armstrong's fans. Contador a young man under pressure from within his own team and DS, attacks and people are all over him because he attacks and Kloden gets dropped. the young man tried an attack and so his teammate get dropped and slowed down and waited. What is so wrong with that? It does not pander to LA fans? He is not a good team player and LA should be the team player as he shows more leadership quality?

A good teammate would not criticize your tactics in public, but do it at team meetings or in private and give guidance there.

This is a freaking bike race, how is Contador suppose to know when Kloden will get dropped? Is he a prohet? IMO the mistake is it was a half attack and waiting for Kloden. You have to make time when you can and when you feel you have the legs do it, you never know when you are going to have a bad day. Watch what happen to Cadel Evans, do you think Van Den Broeck was called a bad teammate for going ahead and not waiting for Cadel?

1986 both Hinault and Le Mond attacked and there was a natural selection of the favorites.

Contador only has control over what he can do and not what others can or will do.


I wonder if it was Lance who attacked if we would hear the same cry from most people who call it dumb.

Whether you like Armstrong or not he rode a strong race for his age and I would not underestimate him next year. Contador and others would do well not to underestimate him.

The fact is Armstrong wanted to win, Contador wanted to win.

The Strategy of getting everybody on the podium would be a strategy that is in Armstrong's favour and not Contadors best interest.

Astana won the Team Prize that is what it is there for.

The podium is for the best individual riders with the support of their respective teams

Simply Contador outfoxed Armstrong.

They were on the same team with different agendas

 

[scribe]

Contador's attack seemed to be dumb mostly to those who are Lance
Armstrong's fans. Contador a young man under pressure from within his own team and DS, attacks and people are all over him because he attacks and Kloden gets dropped. the young man tried an attack and so his teammate get dropped and slowed down and waited. What is so wrong with that? It does not pander to LA fans? He is not a good team player and LA should be the team player as he shows more leadership quality?

A good teammate would not criticize your tactics in public, but do it at team meetings or in private and give guidance there.

This is a freaking bike race, how is Contador suppose to know when Kloden will get dropped? Is he a prohet? IMO the mistake is it was a half attack and waiting for Kloden. You have to make time when you can and when you feel you have the legs do it, you never know when you are going to have a bad day. Watch what happen to Cadel Evans, do you think Van Den Broeck was called a bad teammate for going ahead and not waiting for Cadel?

1986 both Hinault and Le Mond attacked and there was a natural selection of the favorites.

Contador only has control over what he can do and not what others can or will do.


I wonder if it was Lance who attacked if we would hear the same cry from most people who call it dumb.

Whether you like Armstrong or not he rode a strong race for his age and I would not underestimate him next year. Contador and others would do well not to underestimate him.

The fact is Armstrong wanted to win, Contador wanted to win.

The Strategy of getting everybody on the podium would be a strategy that is in Armstrong's favour and not Contadors best interest.

Astana won the Team Prize that is what it is there for.

The podium is for the best individual riders with the support of their respective teams

Simply Contador outfoxed Armstrong.

They were on the same team with different agendas

I never saw the words Lance and Armstrong appear so many times in one post!

The 'kid' isolated himself against two of his closest competitors at what might have been the worst possible moment. End of story without the Armstrong faerie tales that Paulinho read to Contador at nighty-nite time during the tour!

 

[manolo]

ps: See the Spanish press about all of Contador's nit-picking.... No car, no reserved bus seat, shared single bed with Paulinho, Lance not hugging him in the morning...

Ha ha! Single bed with Paulinho! No hugs in the morning! Heh heh! Might have worked to ease the tension between them! A little cuddling and a few hugs go a long way to help people! Armstrong should not have denied Contador his warmth! Ha ha!

 

[Hugh Januss]

I never saw the words Lance and Armstrong appear so many times in one post!

The 'kid' isolated himself against two of his closest competitors at what might have been the worst possible moment. End of story without the Armstrong faerie tales that Paulinho read to Contador at nighty-nite time during the tour!

Patriot's post mentioned those names 9 times in 21 lines.
Your 1/2 witty response used them 3 times in 3 lines.
What was your point anyway?

 

[thehog]

The 'kid' isolated himself against two of his closest competitors at what might have been the worst possible moment. End of story without the Armstrong faerie tales that Paulinho read to Contador at nighty-nite time during the tour!

You raise a good point. If I were Contador I to would want to get as far as way as possible from my own teammates. If this meant attacking them I would. Especially when I could not trust them and by not having them near me then they could **** me over.

Kloden is a Armstrong patsy. Period. End of. Kloden wasn't riding for 1-2-3 he was riding for a contract on the Shack attack for 2010. Contador knew this.

 

[scribe]

Patriot's post mentioned those names 9 times in 21 lines.
Your 1/2 witty response used them 3 times in 3 lines.
What was your point anyway?

Now my feelings are hurt. This TdF has been the trail of tears.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Now my feelings are hurt. This TdF has been the trail of tears.

Ok, now that was funny.

 

[jamfra67]

Contador's attack was the worst racing I have ever seen by a holder of the yellow jersey...there were two options:
1)Sit on and help drag Kloden over the top to let him sprint for the stage win
2)Tell Kloden to attack, make the Schleck's chase and then Contador counters.

In either case Astana probably wins the stage. Contador has no idea how to race with the jersey on. It is not just enough to be the strongest, you have to respect the efforts of your team mates.

This was also revealed after Lance bridged up to the Contador Kloden gourp the other day...Contador said "I didn't need him anyway..."

I would be surprised if Contador has any friends left on the team at all. Bruyneel must have been furious.

bottom line is he kept the yellow jersey to the attend. Without the few attacks he made the race would just be boring. I think Contador was listening to the advice of the Badger

 

[jamfra67]

Let me repost what got buried very fast in the other thread:

I think it was an excellent move by Bertie at the time. I think it's wrong to argue based on the outcome, a piece of information which wasn't available for Bertie at the time of the attack.

Let's see what the situation was when Bertie decided to go:

1) Frank and Andy had been attacking since the lower parts of the previous climb. They were driving in the front for most of the two last climbs
2) Bertie and Kloden were following. I think neither had been doing a single pull at the front at that time
3) So far, Bertie had been able to ride away from Andy (and Frank) every single time he attacked in this TdF.

Based on these facts there was a very reasonable expectation that Bertie's attack would a) quite likely distance the Schleck brothers, in particular Frank who's considered the weaker one (and who certainly looked weaker the day before) and b) not necessarily drop Kloden who hadn't worked in the front during the entire day as far as I could see.

The second point is the weaker point since Kloden (despite JB blather about 4 leaders) was always the omega b!tch of the 4.** Kloden was never a leader of Astana. Both he and his teammates never considered him as anything else than a domestique. Who's going to ask for permission to attack from a domestique? If at all Bertie should have asked him how he felt and if he thought whether he could hang on to any kind of acceleration.

The last point I would like to make is that I'm fed up with team tactics dictated to the riders by their DS. We had a thread here a short while ago about it. If the result of radios is that we see fewer attacks, then get the f*ck rid of the radios already. When a rider feels good and wants to attack, I don't want no freaking DS to stop him from it. Racing has become duller over time anyway.

I enjoyed every bit of the stage. The fight between Pellizotti and Martinez, Thor's incredible chase for points, and the final two climbs including Sastre's, the Schlecks's and definitely Contador's attack. Now, get a tape of stage 9 and watch that. Then come here and criticize (with a straight face) a rider for attacking.


** Just look back at Arcalis and who drove up the Astana train. If anyone would like to find out where Kloden lost a few seconds, just look back at that stage and ask yourself why LL, as the objectively weakest of the Astana 4, didn't ride tempo for the other 3. Maybe Kloden wouldn't have lost seconds there. Alternatively, look at the Verbier stage and check who hauled someone's tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes.

end rant

The Badger's comment on the Lance /Alberto battle for leadership: No matter what happens it is not the team manager who races the race. It will be the riders who decide and who can smash the pedals the hardest

 

[czech622]

I did some time splits for the last kilo up the Col de la Colombriere; all brought to you by Chryslers 1/2 hour of no F'n commercial interruptions. I timed using my watch, so not 100 percent accurate, but pretty close. Here's the scene, Contador had attacked with about 2 kilos to go. Kloden was quickly off the back, on his own. The Schlecks quickly rebounded, caught Contador and turned the screws a little tighter to put time into Kloden, Armstrong, and Wiggins. As each group hit the one kilo banner, I started timing until they crossed the summit.

Time for last kilo:

Schleck/Schleck/Contador Group 3' 40"
Kloden 4' 12"
Armstong 3' 15"

Schleck/Contador average speed for that last kilo was 16.28 kph or 10.11 mph. Amazing with that grade with both Andy and Frank taking turns pulling.

Kloden averaged 14.28 kph or 8.87 mph. Not bad for being hung out to dry.

Now get this: Armstrong averaged 18.46 kph or 11.47 mph!

Now, I'm not an Armstrong fanatic, but I can appreciate good riding when I see it and that was just just simply beyond comprehension. Armstrong appeared to be playing a team role by riding Wiggins wheel and If Armstrong saved his podium finish, it was due to that last kilo effort on that mountain.

However, I am still bothered by one thing. If Contador was so strong (he appeared to be), Why did he stop his attack? Did he not have the legs to take it to the finish? I am really confused by the move...If he didn't need Kloden and he had separation with the Schlecks, what the hell was it for then?

 

[patriot]

Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornard

I never saw the words Lance and Armstrong appear so many times in one post!

The 'kid' isolated himself against two of his closest competitors at what might have been the worst possible moment. End of story without the Armstrong faerie tales that Paulinho read to Contador at nighty-nite time during the tour!

So why his closest competitors could not take time out of him then since it was such a bad thing isolating ones self

He only isolated himself towards the end of the stage on a hill at speed of less than 12 mph, what does it matter at such slow speed, at the end of a stage it is the strongest who will survive, this was not a sprint at high speeds where the lead out is very important. Had he isolated himself 20km from the top that would have been different
The strong men isolated themselves. The team did its work and it was Contadors job to finish it off.

Where Contador failed is when he waited.

My point, mostly Armstrong fans thought it was a dumb move.

Others has criticized the move in a balanced manner without calling it dumb.

What do you care how many times I mentioned Armstrong, maybe you should check how many times Phil liggett mentioned Armstrong vs mentioning Contador the winner of the Tour De France

We must stop trying to devalue Contadors Victory, that is what is being done here.

 

[LaBici]

We must stop trying to devalue Contadors Victory, that is what is being done here.

Not I. I am here to praise and pay my respects to Condator. "Il Re del Tour de france"! He won a well ridden tour! Il Pistolero out-gunned the competition! Bravo Contador! Olé!

 

[180mmCrank]

Here's one for Alberto - Il Pistolero

 

[Jonathan]

We must stop trying to devalue Contadors Victory, that is what is being done here.

Actually, the more this is brought up, the more it is becoming a symbol of the fact that Contador won the Tour and Armstrong did not. Bagging on and on about this single attack is the way frustration is expressed by a group of fans. It's like that fox running around town telling everyone that the grapes are sour, and throwing a tantrum every time someone taller tells him that they are actually quite good. It is starting to be amusing.

 

[Maneblusser25]

...with hindsight...

Hindsight is a great thing, but at the same time everyone could feel how the tension within the Astana team got bigger and bigger by the hour. The only thing Bruyneel and C° were trying to do was isolating Contador within his own team, using quite subtle but extremely efficient tools: at press conferences Contador was left on his own, the set up of the reserve bikes on the Astana main car left little to the imagination, team trainings looked as if the Astana team was Lance and his suit on the one hand and Alberto & the happy few on the other, both actually going opposite ways!. Anyway, to cut a long story short, Bruyneel and Armstrong have tried to destroy Contador psychologically hoping he would also break physically as a result. They bullied and humiliated him at every possible occasion often in public. Without the crushing pressure he endured from the Astana management and their accolites, Contador would have won the TdF by a much bigger margin. We all knew this was going to happen, and thank God Bruyneel and Armstrong will start their own team with sufficient slaves to lick their heels whenever they feel like it. I hope Lance will return to the Grand Boucle next year. Best way to find out how big the quality gap between him and Contador has developed over the span of just a year. And then I mean not just as an athlete, bike racer, but also as a individual with a decent sense for moral values.

 

[scribe]

Hindsight is a great thing, but at the same time everyone could feel how the tension within the Astana team got bigger and bigger by the hour. The only thing Bruyneel and C° were trying to do was isolating Contador within his own team, using quite subtle but extremely efficient tools: at press conferences Contador was left on his own, the set up of the reserve bikes on the Astana main car left little to the imagination, team trainings looked as if the Astana team was Lance and his suit on the one hand and Alberto & the happy few on the other, both actually going opposite ways!. Anyway, to cut a long story short, Bruyneel and Armstrong have tried to destroy Contador psychologically hoping he would also break physically as a result. They bullied and humiliated him at every possible occasion often in public. Without the crushing pressure he endured from the Astana management and their accolites, Contador would have won the TdF by a much bigger margin. We all knew this was going to happen, and thank God Bruyneel and Armstrong will start their own team with sufficient slaves to lick their heels whenever they feel like it. I hope Lance will return to the Grand Boucle next year. Best way to find out how big the quality gap between him and Contador has developed over the span of just a year. And then I mean not just as an athlete, bike racer, but also as a individual with a decent sense for moral values.

One might conclude Contador was isolated because Bruyneel and Armstrong are a couple of ogres. Or you might also conclude that Contador found himself in that position because he doesn't inspire the respect of those around him. We shall see, as time will tell. On we go!

 

[ggusta]

Here's one for Alberto - Il Pistolero

does she need a domestique? I think I know a volunteer.

 

[ggusta]

One might conclude Contador was isolated because Bruyneel and Armstrong are a couple of ogres. Or you might also conclude that Contador found himself in that position because he doesn't inspire the respect of those around him. We shall see, as time will tell. On we go!

Gosh, you have the ability to read into stuff, don't you?

Bring on 2010

 

[Maneblusser25]

One might conclude Contador was isolated because Bruyneel and Armstrong are a couple of ogres. Or you might also conclude that Contador found himself in that position because he doesn't inspire the respect of those around him. We shall see, as time will tell. On we go!

Frankly I have no doubt to go for the first option. That conclusion has only been confirmed by recent, extremely interesting and eye-popping books such as Jeremy Whittle's BAD BLOOD and Walsh/Ballestre's LE SALE TOUR - Le Système Armstrong (As far as I am aware of not yet in English? - I just finished reading the Flemish translation). Actually must reads for everyone interested in the behind-the -scenes of world cycling. Sobering and the same time essential for those who are prepared to look under the fine layer of glitter (or is it fake-goldleaf?)...

 

[dblueroom]

Feel free to comment below.

To win the race you have to attack. No apologies necessary.

The only concern I had was he was 1 against 2 he put himself in a vulnerable position, then again, he was Contador, he was too strong (he could have won that stage, though I would have preferred the schlecks - it would be unbearable at the dinner table that night if he did win). His attack didnt change anything - he was the best this year, andy schleck second, and leave Bruyneel and his rest astana squad to figure out the 3rd...

just put yourself in Contador's position, if he didnt solidify his lead, armstrong would snatch it when he had a chance (as he did that stage win from Kloden a few years ago, and Contador said he wouldnt allow surprises. a job well done lad!

 

[manolo]

It makes me wonder if Contador actually needed a team around him. Are team members there only if you need another bike, or to pull you back into the group if you fall behind? It makes me wonder if Evans, Menchov or Sastre fell behind at all because they had a weaker team. Would the Schlecks have been so fresh if they had had a weaker team? Did Armstrong contribute anything to the team, except to drain Kloden and not give Wiggins any help to come back in the mountains?...

 

[scribe]

It makes me wonder if Contador actually needed a team around him. Are team members there only if you need another bike, or to pull you back into the group if you fall behind? It makes me wonder if Evans, Menchov or Sastre fell behind at all because they had a weaker team. Would the Schlecks have been so fresh if they had had a weaker team? Did Armstrong contribute anything to the team, except to drain Kloden and not give Wiggins any help to come back in the mountains?...

You make several interesting questions. But the bold stood out to me. I don't think Evans did as well in his team structure. Something tells me Menchov and Sastre weren't in peak form for that tour. Sastre might be in career decline. All might have benefited from a stronger team.

Other guys can probably answer the question better regarding a rider as strong as Contador and if he could actually win alone. But I would bet that there are teams that won't want him using their energy from within the peleton next year and will make it very clear where he is not appreciated. This is probably a big advantage he enjoyed within the Astana team structure led by Armstrong who dictated the goings on from within the peleton. <--Others will undoubtedly argue against Armstrong's influence.

I don't know if the Schlecks would be any less fresh without their team structure. But I can assure you there were lots of GC guys suffering well ahead of the climbs to keep up with the pace. Riis knows the value of flat-out suffering and softening BEFORE the climb begins. The Schlecks are animals to survive from it themselves.

 

[180mmCrank]

It makes me wonder if Contador actually needed a team around him. Are team members there only if you need another bike, or to pull you back into the group if you fall behind? It makes me wonder if Evans, Menchov or Sastre fell behind at all because they had a weaker team. Would the Schlecks have been so fresh if they had had a weaker team? Did Armstrong contribute anything to the team, except to drain Kloden and not give Wiggins any help to come back in the mountains?...

Folks will continue to argue about who Astana were working for but they were working. There were many occasions when the Astana train sat on the front and dictated the pace. Regardless of what was going on around the edges the team did work for its leader(s) and Contador benefited from this. He couldn't have won without a team. He might have won it more easily if his team had been soley focussed on his victory - but that's a post for one of the other dozen threads on TdF 2009.

For me the great thing is that the right guy won IMHO. Contador is the man of the moment - a genius on a bike.

 

[manolo]

Folks will continue to argue about who Astana were working for but they were working. There were many occasions when the Astana train sat on the front and dictated the pace. Regardless of what was going on around the edges the team did work for its leader(s) and Contador benefited from this.

I agree. I guess from Zubeldia's very suppportive comments (http://www.steephill.tv/2009/entries/contador-post-tdf-news-conference/) , Contador did thank his teammates every night, but when Armstrong twittered about Contador he could do it because, apparently, Contador never thanked the team publicly, a la Mark Cavendish after every sprint. Which might have been hard to do, under the circumstances.