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Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornand

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Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornand

  • What comes goes around. It's all somehow Lance's fault.

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Jun 16, 2009
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I know multipostings bad but I'm too lazy to paraphrase myself

As I said yesterday on the official Stage 17 thread...

badboyberty said:
I've not been a big Contador follower but have tended to notice that he does tend to attack as his number one defence. And so far it seems to work well.

Without a working crystal ball, Contador can't have known that both Schlecks would keep his wheel. He's said he only expected Andy Schleck to have a chance to hold it, and judging by previous stages that was a reasonable expectation. Had the attack worked and Contador had distanced both Schlecks the psychological damage alone to Saxo Bank would have effectively neutralised Ventoux.

Good check-list to see if a move is stupid or not.

1. Move results in rider losing race. STUPID
2. Move results in team leader gaining time on the majority of competitors. SUCCESSFUL
3. Moves that gains time on all competitors BRILLIANT
4. Move totally destroys competition but puts two of your team-mates on the podium. TIME TO TAKE A REALLY CLOSE LOOK AT THE BIOLOGICAL PASSPORTS
 
Cobblestones said:
pa⋅nache  [puh-nash, -nahsh] Show IPA
–noun
1. a grand or flamboyant manner; verve; style; flair: The actor who would play Cyrano must have panache.
2. an ornamental plume of feathers, tassels, or the like, esp. one worn on a helmet or cap.
3. Architecture. the surface of a pendentive.
4. something Johan Bruyneel does not understand

Gaining 20 seconds at the top, only to get chased down before the finish is NOT Panache. And let's face it, with a 10 mile descent and two team mates chasing his chances of staying away were slim at best.

Now, a climber winning the final TT? THAT was panache.

Kevin
 
Mar 18, 2009
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I am with Cobblestones 100%. It is not Contador's responsibility to worry about the overall position of his domestiques in the GC. Kloden was going to pop out the back regardless of what happened. As team leader and wearing the maillot jaune, Contador wanted to put more time into his rivals (especially Andy Schleck) and he had previously proven he could do this. Why not try to gain precious seconds when you never know what can happen on future stages, such as mechanicals and crashes?

Some detractors are comparing Contador to Lance as proof of wrongdoing. But Lance was totally dominating in his 1999-2005 years. He would not hesitate to put the hurt on his GC rivals. This is no different to what Contador was wanting to do with Andy and perhaps Frank Schleck. Sure it didn't work but he gave it a go. In regards to isolating himself from Kloden, firstly Kloden was going to pop anyway, secondly he was strong enough at that stage not to need team mates, and thirdly if everything went to hell in a hand basket then he always had the downhill finish to limit his losses.

Contador showed himself worthy of the maillot jaune both mentally and physically. Chaupe.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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Is there agreement that the attack on the Columbiere helped Armstrong the most of all the GC contenders?



/I doubt the forum is in agreement about anything, but does anybody argue that Lance did NOT benefit from Kloden falling off the pace?
 
UpTheRoad said:
Is there agreement that the attack on the Columbiere helped Armstrong the most of all the GC contenders?

Ironically it is true. I've also said before that I think Contador's attack caused the bros to be slightly more cautious in their pacemaking from then on, and save a little in case he attacked again.

I doubt the forum is in agreement about anything, but does anybody argue that Lance did NOT benefit from Kloden falling off the pace?

I bet at least 20% or so agree with just about any statement no matter how silly.:D
 
May 5, 2009
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I guess it would have made it a less confusing move if he had not balked and kept looking back for Kloden, whether out of concern for the situation he put himself into or out of concern for Kolden's GC spot, whichever it was.

I guess, whether for better or worse, I never saw Armstrong attack and then check back to see how Heras, Popo or Landis were doing.

Then again, Lance, to my knowledge, had never faced two strong climbers, acting so well in tandem, as the brothers Schleck did, both on the same team and on a such a hard stage!

Maybe I wouldn't have been so puzzled if Contador had had just attacked and never once given a look back, as if saying, "I'm gone and that's that, deal with it. No mistake, no hesitation. I meant to do it, damn the consequences!" :)
 
May 5, 2009
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Tactically, Armstrong on his team or not, Contador succeeded in isolating himself while surrounded by two opponents. I just wonder if his looking back reflected his awareness of this situation or if he just felt bad for Kloden. In the end, nothing came from the attack it, he gained no time off of the Schlecks, but did gain time on Wiggins and his own teammates. So, was it recklessness, panache or vindictiveness? If Cadel was in the same situation and he had had a teammate with him, would he have attacked? Would Carlos Sastre have? Would Ivan Basso? And if they had, would they have looked back or just taken off with no regrets and no looks over their shoulders? Ah, well! the strongest man did win the Tour!
 
Aug 1, 2009
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manolo said:
If Cadel was _______________, would he have attacked?

The answer is always "no", right? =P


In regards to Contador's attack, It seemed pretty obvious to me that Contador was trying to get rid of Frank Schleck (probably thinking Kloden was about to get dropped and he'd be isolated) and lost Kloden instead. In hindsight it didn't work out for him, but it's easy to see what he was trying to do.

Plus, when it comes down to it, I don't think Kloden had a podium place in him this year. He did too much work (which of course was his job in the first place, and he worked his *** off doing it) and he didn't do what he needed to do in the TT or Ventoux to hold off the top riders in this year's race. Contador's job was to win the tour, and that's what he was trying to accomplish on this stage. Once the tour is sewn up then you can start playing the "how many podium spots can we fill" game, but with a whole lot of important stages coming up Contador would have been stupid not to take any opportunities for time that he could.
 
May 5, 2009
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Ah! I'm just bitter 'cause I wish Contador had sat on wheels during that day's climbs so Kloden would have had a shot at the stage victory - and maybe gained time on Armstrong and been on the podium himself! Kloden did do better than Arnstrong in both time trials!
 
Jul 19, 2009
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manolo said:
Ah! I'm just bitter 'cause I wish Contador had sat on wheels during that day's climbs so Kloden would have had a shot at the stage victory - and maybe gained time on Armstrong and been on the podium himself! Kloden did do better than Arnstrong in both time trials!
Everyone noticed it but it was Lance's Tour. Who towed Lance in mountains? Of course, Klöden! Lance could have played the Lord by thanking Klöden !
 
May 5, 2009
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poupou said:
Who towed Lance in mountains? Of course, Klöden! Lance could have played the Lord by thanking Klöden !

Man, what a nice Twitter feed that would have been! :) "Thanks, Klodi, for all your work!" instead of all that crap he fed Alberto's way!

Here's a boring calculation: Had Alberto just sat on Andy's wheel all Tour, he would have taken 0:42 in Monaco, 0:40 in the Team Time Trial and 1:44 in the Annecy Time Trial. He would have won the Tour by 3:06. Decent, huh? But what a showoff! He had to go for more! Dang him! :)

How much time did put into Wiggins in the Tiem Trials? 0:01 in Monaco, 0:18 in the Team Time Trial and 0:42 in the Annecy. 1:01 in total.

Armstrong? 0:01 in Monaco, and 1:29 in Annecy. 1:30 in total.

Kloden? 0:22 in Monaco, 0:53 in Annecy. 1:15 in total.

Ok, that was worthless information. I admit it! :)
 
Jul 29, 2009
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To me, there's no point in this discussion. AC was in yellow, so it was his team that was supposed to help him, not the other way round.
If he was strong enough to attack, let him do it as anyone would have done.

Plus:
1- AC warned Kloden of his movement.
2- As soon as AC realised Kloden had lagged behind, he stopped attacking and remained looking back for his "teammate".
3- When the stage finished, he showed concern about Kloden's not having been able to follow.

AC: 2 Tours + 1 Giro + 1 Vuelta - 26 years old. Lance has reasons to worry :D
 

TheArbiter

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Aug 3, 2009
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I thought it was unfortunate that AC appeared to be giving the Schleck brothers a pep talk to go as fast as they possibly can to get more time over Lance.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Let's face it, with the MJ fairly secure, podium placements within the team was good for Bruyneel, along with the team riders.

Contador couldn't let that sort of glory happen.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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scribe said:
Let's face it, with the MJ fairly secure, podium placements within the team was good for Bruyneel, along with the team riders.

Contador couldn't let that sort of glory happen.
What is a MJ secure when you have not crossed the line in Paris? A puncture in the last 10km with no team to support you, especially if Lance would have been 2nd at that moment?
What happened earlier had given no confidence to Contador. Who want to trust Lance?
 
Jul 22, 2009
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poupou said:
What is a MJ secure when you have not crossed the line in Paris? A puncture in the last 10km with no team to support you, especially if Lance would have been 2nd at that moment?
What happened earlier had given no confidence to Contador. Who want to trust Lance?
He didn't seem to mind lance hanging onto Wiggin's wheel.

Face it. The kid got what he wanted and cried about getting there afterward. He'll move on to alienate and use next season.
 
Aug 1, 2009
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scribe said:
Let's face it, with the MJ fairly secure, podium placements within the team was good for Bruyneel, along with the team riders.

Contador couldn't let that sort of glory happen.

I really think you're assuming Contador was more confident in the inevitability of his overall victory than he actually was at the time. I just don't see why his explanation of his thinking (He wanted to get rid of one of the Schlecks, it didn't work out that way, he didn't attack again) can't be taken at face value. Given that he hasn't ridden that many tours, it's understandable that he'd be nervous about being isolated against two strong teammates even if it ended up not being a problem.

Contador is simultaneously being portrayed as a calculating schemer working to undermine the interests of his own team and as an inexperienced kid who "has a lot to learn" about race tactics. He can't be both an evil genius AND an idiot when it comes to tactics.
 
Jul 21, 2009
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scribe said:
Face it. The kid got what he wanted and cried about getting there afterward. He'll move on to alienate and use next season.

I saw no crying on the part of Condator. He acted and spoke like a champion. As for LA... he was the one making snippy and totally unwarranted comments on his twitter. Face it Mr. Scribe. Lance acted and spoke like a lover scorned. He didn't like not being #1 on Astana. It was shameful that he would assume that he a 37 yr old should assume the #1 spot, when you have a) Condator as the declared Leader (affirmed by JB in the early part of the season) and b) the most recent winner of major tours. No question Condator was the Leader.. Alone and in Command!

Is AC a great climber? Yes! Is he an all round great cyclist? Yes! Is he able to hold his opinions to himself and let his legs do the talking? Yes! Is Condator a rider of the future?... Damn right he is!

PS Lance will never be #1 EVER again on any team... including Radioshack. Not if the team is serious about placing riders on the podium. In 2010 LA will be two months short of 39 years old. Give your head a shake if you think he can win.
 
Jul 21, 2009
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It didn't help that between the Versus Commentators and the rest of the NA media, this became a Tour D'France with Armstrong being the main focus. This was unfortunate for many reasons which have been well documented in some other threads. The NA media was guilty of giving folks the wrong impression of cycling and failing to explain the history and tactics etc. By focusing on the Cancer Crusader and not cycling they de-facto made LA the only rider that "should win", and by extension they made AC the "bad guy" ... the one who was undermining the team... ie not letting LA win. The lone wolf.

But actually it was the other hollywood script that came to pass, El Pistolero, the young handsome dark stranger of few words, who out gunned the "the old cowboy".

... pedal pedal i am the king of the mountain!
 
Jul 22, 2009
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LaBici said:
PS Lance will never be #1 EVER again on any team... including Radioshack. Not if the team is serious about placing riders on the podium. In 2010 LA will be two months short of 39 years old. Give your head a shake if you think he can win.

I said last summer that there was no way in hell he would place, and I seriously doubted he would finish. He proved me wrong and impressed! Podium is not out of the realm of possibility this time around. I'd like to see Andy Schleck rise to the top of the heap for the next tour.


ps: See the Spanish press about all of Contaking's nit-picking about his treatment on the tour.... No car, no reserved bus seat, shared single bed with Paulinho, Lance not hugging him in the morning, etc, etc, etc. Good luck to his worship-ness on the next team....
 
Aug 3, 2009
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Interesting - Kloden must learn spanish :cool:

Its not Contador who should learn english, its Kloden who must learn spanish.

I thing that attitude replicate the whole crying of the pistolero fans.

Pathetic