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Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornand

Contador's Attack on Le Grand Bornand

  • What comes goes around. It's all somehow Lance's fault.

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May 5, 2009
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Feel free to comment below.

In your opinion did Contador do the right thing by attacking on the final climb of yesterday's stage.

Options:
To win the race you have to attack. No apologies necessary.
It doesn't matter. Kloden would have cracked anyways.
Contador did irreparable damage to team morale.
It was wrong to attack a teammate with podium aspirations.
It was reckless, impulsive and showed a lack of maturity.
Kloden should learn Spanish.
It's all somehow Lance's fault.
 
A

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manolo said:
Feel free to comment below.

In your opinion did Contador do the right thing by attacking on the final climb of yesterday's stage.

Options:
To win the race you have to attack. No apologies necessary.
It doesn't matter. Kloden would have cracked anyways.
Contador did irreparable damage to team morale.
It was wrong to attack a teammate with podium aspirations.
It was reckless, impulsive and showed a lack of maturity.
Kloden should learn Spanish.
It's all somehow Lance's fault.

Um, if you want to find what others think, why not just read the opinions on one of the three threads that already address this EXACT subject?
 
Jun 23, 2009
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terrible racing by yellow jersey

Contador's attack was the worst racing I have ever seen by a holder of the yellow jersey...there were two options:
1)Sit on and help drag Kloden over the top to let him sprint for the stage win
2)Tell Kloden to attack, make the Schleck's chase and then Contador counters.

In either case Astana probably wins the stage. Contador has no idea how to race with the jersey on. It is not just enough to be the strongest, you have to respect the efforts of your team mates.

This was also revealed after Lance bridged up to the Contador Kloden gourp the other day...Contador said "I didn't need him anyway..."

I would be surprised if Contador has any friends left on the team at all. Bruyneel must have been furious.
 
Jun 11, 2009
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gshinn1 said:
Contador's attack was the worst racing I have ever seen by a holder of the yellow jersey...there were two options:
1)Sit on and help drag Kloden over the top to let him sprint for the stage win
2)Tell Kloden to attack, make the Schleck's chase and then Contador counters.

In either case Astana probably wins the stage. Contador has no idea how to race with the jersey on. It is not just enough to be the strongest, you have to respect the efforts of your team mates.

This was also revealed after Lance bridged up to the Contador Kloden gourp the other day...Contador said "I didn't need him anyway..."

I would be surprised if Contador has any friends left on the team at all. Bruyneel must have been furious.

haha lol, respect efforts of your team mates? What efforts? Maybe AC should drag Rast up? Or Muravyev? Coz they did more for him than LA and AK. Dont be ridiculous, hes the MJ, he can do whatever he wants. Its actually nice of him, he stopped when saw AK bonking, but unneccesery.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Yeah.. they have really been there for him!
He did what he did. Klodi just did not have it... same but that's the truth. He couldn't even hold on to Lance @ the finish.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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gshinn1 said:
Contador's attack was the worst racing I have ever seen by a holder of the yellow jersey...there were two options:
1)Sit on and help drag Kloden over the top to let him sprint for the stage win
2)Tell Kloden to attack, make the Schleck's chase and then Contador counters.

In either case Astana probably wins the stage. Contador has no idea how to race with the jersey on. It is not just enough to be the strongest, you have to respect the efforts of your team mates.

This was also revealed after Lance bridged up to the Contador Kloden gourp the other day...Contador said "I didn't need him anyway..."

I would be surprised if Contador has any friends left on the team at all. Bruyneel must have been furious.

Did you see how quickly Kloden was blown off the back? You wanted him to start the attack? LOL, he was clearly lucky to even be with that group at the time.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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There was absolutely no tactical sense in launching that attack. It could serve to do nothing but hurt his chances and the chances of his teammates.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. He's lucky he got away with it this time. I lost a bit of respect for him at that moment.
 
May 13, 2009
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Let me repost what got buried very fast in the other thread:

I think it was an excellent move by Bertie at the time. I think it's wrong to argue based on the outcome, a piece of information which wasn't available for Bertie at the time of the attack.

Let's see what the situation was when Bertie decided to go:

1) Frank and Andy had been attacking since the lower parts of the previous climb. They were driving in the front for most of the two last climbs
2) Bertie and Kloden were following. I think neither had been doing a single pull at the front at that time
3) So far, Bertie had been able to ride away from Andy (and Frank) every single time he attacked in this TdF.

Based on these facts there was a very reasonable expectation that Bertie's attack would a) quite likely distance the Schleck brothers, in particular Frank who's considered the weaker one (and who certainly looked weaker the day before) and b) not necessarily drop Kloden who hadn't worked in the front during the entire day as far as I could see.

The second point is the weaker point since Kloden (despite JB blather about 4 leaders) was always the omega b!tch of the 4.** Kloden was never a leader of Astana. Both he and his teammates never considered him as anything else than a domestique. Who's going to ask for permission to attack from a domestique? If at all Bertie should have asked him how he felt and if he thought whether he could hang on to any kind of acceleration.

The last point I would like to make is that I'm fed up with team tactics dictated to the riders by their DS. We had a thread here a short while ago about it. If the result of radios is that we see fewer attacks, then get the f*ck rid of the radios already. When a rider feels good and wants to attack, I don't want no freaking DS to stop him from it. Racing has become duller over time anyway.

I enjoyed every bit of the stage. The fight between Pellizotti and Martinez, Thor's incredible chase for points, and the final two climbs including Sastre's, the Schlecks's and definitely Contador's attack. Now, get a tape of stage 9 and watch that. Then come here and criticize (with a straight face) a rider for attacking.


** Just look back at Arcalis and who drove up the Astana train. If anyone would like to find out where Kloden lost a few seconds, just look back at that stage and ask yourself why LL, as the objectively weakest of the Astana 4, didn't ride tempo for the other 3. Maybe Kloden wouldn't have lost seconds there. Alternatively, look at the Verbier stage and check who hauled someone's tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes.

end rant
 
Apr 20, 2009
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I agree that it's possible to think Alberto could have gotten away solo. But to what effect? He would have summited the climb solo and then barreled down into the finish and MIGHT be able to gain a few seconds he didn't need.

In attempting to do so, he exposed himself to any possible mechanical, he wasted a lot of energy, and he distanced the only person who could have helped him.

I just don't see how one could conclude the risk was worth the reward. I honestly believe it's a simple case that he's a climber, a pure climber, and climbers attack. It's what they do.
 
May 13, 2009
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eleven said:
I agree that it's possible to think Alberto could have gotten away solo. But to what effect? He would have summited the climb solo and then barreled down into the finish and MIGHT be able to gain a few seconds he didn't need.

In attempting to do so, he exposed himself to any possible mechanical, he wasted a lot of energy, and he distanced the only person who could have helped him.

I just don't see how one could conclude the risk was worth the reward. I honestly believe it's a simple case that he's a climber, a pure climber, and climbers attack. It's what they do.

pa⋅nache  [puh-nash, -nahsh] Show IPA
–noun
1. a grand or flamboyant manner; verve; style; flair: The actor who would play Cyrano must have panache.
2. an ornamental plume of feathers, tassels, or the like, esp. one worn on a helmet or cap.
3. Architecture. the surface of a pendentive.
4. something Johan Bruyneel does not understand
 
Jun 23, 2009
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Team leadership

What you are all missing is the responsibility of the team leader. Conti doesn't get it. He knocked his team mates down two slots on GC. Maybe he wanted more time on both Lance and Kloden too....regardless this was not about the team - it was about him. This is a team sport and it is the leader's job to exemplify that. Panache? part of true panache is class and sportsmanship. True leaders get their team to ride for them to the death....that is one of the truly great things abouot this sport. Anyone that has ridden on a good team with good morale understands this. Any good DS understands this.

It was the dumbest attack I have ever seen from a yellow jersy. There was no point and the outcome was terrible. Bet his team was ready to punch him out....
 
May 13, 2009
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gshinn1 said:
What you are all missing is the responsibility of the team leader. Conti doesn't get it. He knocked his team mates down two slots on GC. Maybe he wanted more time on both Lance and Kloden too....regardless this was not about the team - it was about him. This is a team sport and it is the leader's job to exemplify that. Panache? part of true panache is class and sportsmanship. True leaders get their team to ride for them to the death....that is one of the truly great things abouot this sport. Anyone that has ridden on a good team with good morale understands this. Any good DS understands this.

It was the dumbest attack I have ever seen from a yellow jersy. There was no point and the outcome was terrible. Bet his team was ready to punch him out....

The responsibility of the team leader is first and foremost to win.

Win the race, win stages, win time. Can't do that by sucking wheel.

At a very distant second comes the objective to help domestiques to some glory. If you don't believe me, look how LA handled the Postal/Discovery team. How much glory did his domestiques earn during those years?

Anyway, you're falling in the same trap as almost anybody else by arguing based on the outcome. Look at the race situation. Contador might have suspected that Kloden was close to bonking. Why did Kloden eat on the last kms of the Colombiere? Sometimes an attack is the best defense.
 
Jun 23, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
The responsibility of the team leader is first and foremost to win.

Win the race, win stages, win time. Can't do that by sucking wheel.

At a very distant second comes the objective to help domestiques to some glory. If you don't believe me, look how LA handled the Postal/Discovery team. How much glory did his domestiques earn during those years?

Anyway, you're falling in the same trap as almost anybody else by arguing based on the outcome. Look at the race situation. Contador might have suspected that Kloden was close to bonking. Why did Kloden eat on the last kms of the Colombiere? Sometimes an attack is the best defense.

I remember Hincapie winning a monster mountain stage after being allowed to go up the road. I also remember Lance doing everything he could to help Landis win. When Landis faltered then Lance chased Kloden and beat him. Lance let his team get a lot of the credit...Heras, Acevedo, Livingston, Rubiera, Popo...on and on.

Where is Heras talking about his team?
 
gshinn1 said:
What you are all missing is the responsibility of the team leader. Conti doesn't get it. He knocked his team mates down two slots on GC. Maybe he wanted more time on both Lance and Kloden too....regardless this was not about the team - it was about him. This is a team sport and it is the leader's job to exemplify that. Panache? part of true panache is class and sportsmanship. True leaders get their team to ride for them to the death....that is one of the truly great things abouot this sport. Anyone that has ridden on a good team with good morale understands this. Any good DS understands this.

It was the dumbest attack I have ever seen from a yellow jersy. There was no point and the outcome was terrible. Bet his team was ready to punch him out....

It could be argued that he knocked Kloden down two spots on GC, but I think it was The Brothers Schleck who did the damage to Armstrong.

As for Kloden: I think he just didn't have it in him. After he lost contact he started going backwards. And I don't think he minds, anyway; he's riding for his captain, like he always does, so as long as Contador wins his job is done. I didn't like seeing him lose that much time--but I'm an unabashed Kloden fan.

And I'm glad Contador is still animating things a little bit even though he has yellow wrapped up. I hope that, if he can, he attacks for the stage win on Ventoux, tactics be damned.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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gshinn1 said:
What you are all missing is the responsibility of the team leader. Conti doesn't get it. He knocked his team mates down two slots on GC. Maybe he wanted more time on both Lance and Kloden too....regardless this was not about the team - it was about him. This is a team sport and it is the leader's job to exemplify that. Panache? part of true panache is class and sportsmanship. True leaders get their team to ride for them to the death....that is one of the truly great things abouot this sport. Anyone that has ridden on a good team with good morale understands this. Any good DS understands this.

It was the dumbest attack I have ever seen from a yellow jersy. There was no point and the outcome was terrible. Bet his team was ready to punch him out....

It was a stupid attack because he had nothing (or very little) to gain, but it wasn't a betrayal of his teammate(s). That's ridiculous. The team (including Kloden) is riding for Contador to win. Period.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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gshinn1 said:
I remember Hincapie winning a monster mountain stage after being allowed to go up the road. I also remember Lance doing everything he could to help Landis win. When Landis faltered then Lance chased Kloden and beat him. Lance let his team get a lot of the credit...Heras, Acevedo, Livingston, Rubiera, Popo...on and on.

Where is Heras talking about his team?

He also burned up all his teammates legs dropping the rest of the field at the beginning of the final climb of every mountain finish so that there was ZERO chance that they could even be a GC contender. Heras was the strongest rider in the 2002 Tour in the mountains by far. Lance even had to tell him to slow down (which he dutifully did...) because he was riding Lance off his wheel along with everyone else. Where did Heras finish in the final GC? If he were allowed to race his own race, I bet he would have been on the podium (he would have lost too much time to Lance in the TTs to win, but 2nd wouldn't have been surprising).
 
May 13, 2009
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gshinn1 said:
I remember Hincapie winning a monster mountain stage after being allowed to go up the road. I also remember Lance doing everything he could to help Landis win. When Landis faltered then Lance chased Kloden and beat him. Lance let his team get a lot of the credit...Heras, Acevedo, Livingston, Rubiera, Popo...on and on.

Where is Heras talking about his team?

Bravo, you remembered the one instance in all the seven years.

Glory for domestiques is a very distant second priority. Just as I said.
 
May 13, 2009
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dgduris said:
Contador was speaking with Kloden - to the extent they can - all the way up the mountain. Andreas must have known what was coming. They must have spoken about it.

Likely. Kloden was eating on the last climb. Why would you do that unless you know you're bonking (and still it would be too late). It was maybe 3 more km to climb and then all downhill.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
pa⋅nache  [puh-nash, -nahsh] Show IPA
–noun
1. a grand or flamboyant manner; verve; style; flair: The actor who would play Cyrano must have panache.
2. an ornamental plume of feathers, tassels, or the like, esp. one worn on a helmet or cap.
3. Architecture. the surface of a pendentive.
4. something Johan Bruyneel does not understand

Stupid (noun) [STU-pid]
1. Wasting effort and threatening your own chances in the biggest stage of the biggest race in the world.

Michael Jordan had Panache...and brains.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
The responsibility of the team leader is first and foremost to win.

Win the race, win stages, win time. Can't do that by sucking wheel.

That attack did nothing at all to help him win, and in fact hindered his chances. Even if it had met with spectacular success, it would not have furthered his GC objectives.
 

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