That may be true but what else is true is a lot, a lot of people won’t listen to Fauci because he has screwed his own credibility.There is a reason that Fauci will take up a prominent role while Birx, Atlas, and Redfield are out on the street. One of the few orgs that have increased their credibility in all this is Niaid. You can't give credit to vaccine development without crediting Fauci and his team.
We've discussed the reasons for the change in mask advice. Mostly, it was because it was not immediately appreciated that most of the spread is through the air, rather than through contact with surfaces.Who will listen? I mean, is this the time he’s being straight... or will it be next time? Is it 15 days to stop the spread or 15 months? Masks aren’t necessary, ummm ok, everyone wear a mask. Don’t close down travel from China... uh, ermmm, ya, stop travel. 70% herd immunity.... would you believe 80%. Okay, 85% but I’m not going to 90%. Oh, and I bet my house covid is not as contagious as measles. But 90% would be good so let’s shoot for that.
Curious with the gyms in Maryland; are there capacity restrictions? Here in Colorado, we were about to lose the gyms back in November when the governor implemented "Level Red" status - which is the full blown "stay-at-home" lockdown orders utilized last spring. However, the Colorado Gym Coalition argued against gym closures with one key aspect being the gyms provide an outlet for stress reduction & can help with depression, as well, of course, the physiological benefits of exercising. So, the gyms are allowed to stay open with a 10% capacity limit (about 35 for the gym I attend). This seems reasonable as there has not been one reported Covid case from any of the Denver-Metro area gyms since the beginning of the pandemic.Gyms are open here, so I don't get the critique. Exercise classes are restricted for good reason. We know that they have caused superspreader events. But we are not following the science. If we were, restaurants would be closed. Fewer bad faith 'follow the science' arguments from you guys would be appreciated. Maybe a new years resolution?
Are you talking about states & cities that don't have enforceable mask mandates? Here in Colorado, where we've had a statewide mask mandate since last summer, mask compliance in the metro is near 100%. For one, you can't enter any business or place of worship without a mask (refusing to wear one will be deemed a trespassing offense and the business owner can have the person arrested & charged). So, the only way to have high compliance is through state & local mandates, and businesses refusing to serve customers who won't wear a mask. That's why people wear a seatbelt because it's a chargeable offense under the traffic code. Cops here in the metro will stop & ticket drivers and/or passengers for not wearing a seatbelt.The real question is, why are there so many GD little babies who can't wear a mask? Why is that so GDF difficult? They can wear a seat belt, they can adhere to a dress code, but they can't wear a mask. Why?
I don't buy it. I think when most people have been vaccinated--regardless of what % of them get effective immunity--mask wearing will decline. Not because they might not have some benefit, but because large numbers of people will be thoroughly tired of them. Since masks are more about protecting others than oneself, they don't help much unless most people are wearing them. Some people probably will continue wearing them, particularly during flu season, but if most people aren't, there won't be much benefit. If you know you're sick, then I would hope you would wear a mask in public, but if you aren't, even if you might be asymptomatic, I don't think people are going to find it worthwhile.Masks will become a cultural norm here in America, IMO.
This is one reason why I think people won't stop wearing masks. You're right: facial expressions are critically important to social interactions, and as you also note, even speech is impacted. Of course, it's possible to have transparent masks, which reveal expressions, and it's possible to speak while wearing one, but even a partial impact on normal communication is a negative consequence that I don't think can be ignored.Because facial expressions are so important in social interactions, we humans will to have develop new ways of communicating through masks (I find myself having a hard time understanding some people as many mumble and don't speak clearly, making it difficult to extrapolate anything they're saying. Lol).
Considering major metro areas would have a mandate and the greatest amount of dipsh*t Kirk Cameron maskless Christmas carolers reside in areas where they've had a mandate....or in Florida, Texas where mandates exist to very minor extents but have zero support from Trumpthumpers; the numbers would definitely be higher. How many people actually wore masks, practiced distancing or, instead; made a political statement like the Whitehouse staff and got Covid? What's the ratio of WH staff, Secret Service, etc. based on the percentage of support workers that got Covid? Much, much higher. Chris...it's over and the disease won over stupid people that refused to be careful.Maybe djp or MI can chime in on this one. Thread.
ahhhh, from the Redfield wing of the ‘masks are more effective than the vaccine’ serious thinkers. What exactly did the disease win?What's the ratio of WH staff, Secret Service, etc. based on the percentage of support workers that got Covid? Much, much higher. Chris...it's over and the disease won over stupid people that refused to be careful.
I didn't celebrate the holidays with my loved ones!We are going around in circles in the discussion about masks, even when presented with statistics which may have dubious value - I live in Hong Kong which is the world leader in the use of MASKS but mask use is often for show and therefore they are misused - People walk around in public to show themselves proudly wearing masks, even though mask use in outside areas where you can socially distance is not necessary, BUT where mask use may have an effect indoors such as in private gatherings, in some workplaces they are often not used BECAUSE you are not seen in public, but yet have the possibility to spread the virus in that environment - I will ask a question - How many who were able to celebrate XMAS with friends/family in an indoor environment wore masks ? I think I know the answer. I rest my case !
I wanted to respond to that post & tweet, but then I deleted it because it reminded me too much of people who cherry pick their way to "anthropogenic climate change isn't real" messages. There's just too many people with a specific goal in mind that then handle the data in a way to achieve the goal. The 'funny' thing is that they pretend to be the critical thinkers while they themselves fail to adhere to minimal scientific standards. And apperently, the public cannot distinguish between proper science and junk science. There's a role for education there. What's the problem with Americans and face masks, by the way? The whole world has more or less accepted that they are part of getting through this. Why is this 'debate' still going on in the US? Your extreme partisanship over and politicization of any freaking thing is incredibly annoying.On the mask mandate study, we have discussed this ad nauseum. You can't get a firm conclusion from comparing spread with and without mandates, because mandates are not put in place randomly, which is what a proper scientific study would require. They're proposed when cases begin to surge, which means that they tend to be associated with higher case levels than is the case when there is no mandate.
In response to that point, Hart says surges continued to go up even when mandates were in place. Was this the case everywhere, and did cases go up indefinitely? No. A study in Canada, e.g., showed a 25-30% decline in cases associated with mask mandates. There are many other studies like these. Why doesn't Hart cite them? In fact, the current surge in the U.S. began to level off about two weeks ago. We also know that earlier waves peaked and declined even sooner than that. If that wasn't the result of social behavior, what did cause it?
Hart also thinks he has an answer to the point that people don't wear masks. He points to an interactive tool, based on a NYT poll of people wearing masks. But the poll was taken in the late summer, when people were outdoors more (and when cases did in fact decline). Since the cold weather arrived (the period of time when Hart's data on continuing surges appears to have been focussed on), people spend more time at home. We know that much of the spread of the virus occurs in these settings--the UF link that Chris posted is a very good example of a study demonstrating this--and that most people do not wear masks in these circumstances.
These people never, ever, ever, ever, ever address the OVERWHELMING SLAMDUNK EVIDENCE that masks block exhalation of viral particles into the air. Why? If they are so GDF *** sure that masks don't work, why don't they have an answer to that? EVERY STUDY where a clear answer can be obtained from rigorously controlling conditions has shown this. ALL OF THE STUDIES cited by people like Hart involve the social behavior of large numbers of people, which has long been known to be highly complex and subject to numerous uncontrollable factors. Some studies of this kind do show an effect of masks, and some don't. If Hart were honest, and were really interested in getting at facts, he would point this out.
The real question is, why are there so many GD little babies who can't wear a mask? Why is that so GDF difficult? They can wear a seat belt, they can adhere to a dress code, but they can't wear a mask. Why?
If someone wants to do a study, how about counting the number of posts on an anti-mask twitter thread that claim election fraud? Could there be a connection? Could it be that people who work tirelessly to prove masks don't work have a political agenda? If I used Hart's criterion for evidence, I would say definitely so. To paraphrase Hart, let's get rid of this election fraud crap.
An important study supporting masks found that two hair dressers working in a salon, known to have C19 symptoms but wearing masks, served a total of about 140 clients. . No cases were reported among any of the clients, nor among other co-workers of the stylists, and almost half of the clients tested negative.since late October, "contact professions" (such as hairdressers and beauty parlors) have been closed, of course to some protest. However, infection data show that people with such professions were far more likely than others to be infected. Masks are and were mandated for those places, so they are not magical tools (also because not everyone uses them the right way). Spend long enough inside, with many people, and you are more at risk.
Sweden, which is "close" to herd immunity since ... when? May? ... climbed into the top 5.The national Belgian health institute publishes quite detailed daily reports with covid data. At the end, there is always a European 'ranking' based on the infections reported per capita. Luxembourg has been consistently in the top-3 (1st = worst) for more than a month now, but they hardly have measures (e.g. restaurants are still open). A surprising country near the top is now Denmark, who have done very well for a long time. They probably reacted a bit too late this time round, and then it's very hard to quickly turn things around. Spain is in the lower end now, but infections seem to be on the rise again, and I've heard they opened restaurants and pubs again. Way too early, I think, so I expect they will start climbing in the ranking.
The consistent good performers have been Iceland, Norway, Finland and Ireland.
There is decreased capacity dictated by the county. I think it has been the same % as the restaurants. My boss still goes and has said it is pretty sparse compared to before times. I think more people are forgoing gyms than dining out, so the percentages are probably not limiting.Curious with the gyms in Maryland; are there capacity restrictions? Here in Colorado, we were about to lose the gyms back in November when the governor implemented "Level Red" status - which is the full blown "stay-at-home" lockdown orders utilized last spring. However, the Colorado Gym Coalition argued against gym closures with one key aspect being the gyms provide an outlet for stress reduction & can help with depression, as well, of course, the physiological benefits of exercising. So, the gyms are allowed to stay open with a 10% capacity limit (about 35 for the gym I attend). This seems reasonable as there has not been one reported Covid case from any of the Denver-Metro area gyms since the beginning of the pandemic.
I was actually interested in yours and djp’s take on this. Hart went so far as to intimate - in the real world - mask wearing was actually a detriment. I was hoping you two could chime in on why his ‘group’ full of it. My purpose was not to offend you (If I did by posting the twitter post).The real question is, why are there so many GD little babies who can't wear a mask? Why is that so GDF difficult?
there is no circle on masks. No circle,no ambiguity on social distancing, nothing confusing about isolation..nothing..zero, nada, nunca,zilch cures Covid19..100%.Hart calls people who disagree with him 'team apocalypse'. People like him and Berenson are effective because they can use complex data to obsfucate. I've posted the cdc evidence on masking. People can read and decide for themselves. Yaco is right. The mask discourse is just going in circles.
I took offense at Hart, but not at you. As I posted above, the fact that Hart found data showing more cases with mandates than without shows that other factors are involved. The simple act of wearing a mask cannot possibly increase transmission. At worst, it may have no effect, but it can't increase transmission.I was actually interested in yours and djp’s take on this. Hart went so far as to intimate - in the real world - mask wearing was actually a detriment. I was hoping you two could chime in on why his ‘group’ full of it. My purpose was not to offend you (If I did by posting the twitter post).
In recent days, anti-vaxxers on the hunt for evidence of their hunches have surfaced several other rumors along the same lines. Most notably, on Dec. 17, Nurse Tiffany Dover at CHI Memorial Hospital in Chattanooga, Tennessee, got a vaccine dose at work, then fainted 17 minutes later—all while on camera. She explained that she sometimes faints as a reaction to pain, a vasovagal syncope response that is not uncommon, or dangerous.
“But it made for a dramatic video,” Berman noted, which anti-vaxxers ravenous for proof of danger could point to, claiming she was lying and had actually had some kind of dangerous reaction.
“People tend to believe their eyes, and seeing someone faint is scary. It gives you a visceral gut reaction,” Berman said. For anti-vaxxers selling a point, “that’s a powerful tool.”
So anti-vaxxers started following Dover online, searching for any scrap of possible evidence that something bad had indeed happened to her. They claimed no one who faints when they get a shot could become a nurse, which is absurd. They claimed that the fact that she wasn’t posting on social media in the days following the shot was suspicious—all the while hounding her accounts for some sort of statement. And eventually they found a death certificate for someone with her name and age who lived in Higdon, Alabama, a 28-mile drive from Chattanooga, on a records search site.
Dover is not dead. On Saturday, her employer Tweeted that she was at home and well, but wanted to maintain her privacy. On Monday, they noted that she was working a shift, and showed a video of her and other staffers. A Tennessee public health official also told The Daily Beast that they had no records of anyone who received a COVID-19 vaccine in the state dying for any vaccine-related reason.
Hardcore anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists on the hunt for proof of their convictions, however, “don’t want this tool taken away,” Berman noted. So, rather than back down on Dover, the first named death they’ve tried to claim with some persistence, they have instead said that they won’t believe she’s alive until she makes a statement with proof of time and date herself. They have also said they won’t believe her if she says she’s fine, suspecting she’s been paid off. And many of them firmly believe that the video of her at work is either a deep fake add-in or a body double.
“Tiffany Dover’s hair is a different shade and thickness, folded differently on her head, covered mouth, and you can’t see her ice blue eyes,” a post on Telegram, critiquing the Monday video, argued. “They pushed the crisis actor to the front [of the group of nurses in the video,] too.”
“This is further proof of the cover up of Tiffany Dover’s death… The vaccinations kill.”